Does it need to be a two day hotel event? The Strasburg show is pretty much a Saturday morning at a small town Fire Department, three times a year. Lots of fun and different things every show. No clinics or layout tours, but a few miles from a large railroad museum and one of the most active steam excursion rr on the east coast. Couldn’t something like that be arranged on the west coast? My understanding is the vendors set up Friday afternoon, and some attendees arrive the night before too, so there is still a bit of the hotel thing and drinks/dinner socializing.
@rdunniii posted:It has been S West and Narrow Gauge West for the past 5 years or so. There are already several 3-rail events including Cal Stewart but they are only about 10 thousand square ft of venue and they are not interested in collaboration. We have spoken with the NMRA and they are not interested either.
The Cal-Stewart show is extinct. It is no longer being held because of the cost of Santa Clara and other Bay Area venues. Also, declining attendance and sales no longer justified the cost.
I heard from the Cal-Stewart guys that the O Scale West people were not interested in sharing space with the 3-rail and O gauge collector community. It is interesting how everyone's viewpoint is different.
I don't know if combining O 2 and 3 rail would work or not. I think that one of the attractions of a 2-rail only show is that 2-rail people don't have to sort through a lot of 3-rail to find their items. On the other hand, attendance and sales at both 2 and 3-rail shows seem to be declining. Perhaps joining forces is a way to keep O gauge train shows viable. NH Joe
@New Haven Joe posted:I don't know if combining O 2 and 3 rail would work or not. I think that one of the attractions of a 2-rail only show is that 2-rail people don't have to sort through a lot of 3-rail to find their items. On the other hand, attendance and sales at both 2 and 3-rail shows seem to be declining. Perhaps joining forces is a way to keep O gauge train shows viable.
Put them at opposite ends of the floor space and put the S scale in between.
@New Haven Joe posted:1. I don't know if combining O 2 and 3 rail would work or not. I think that one of the attractions of a 2-rail only show is that 2-rail people don't have to sort through a lot of 3-rail to find their items.
2. Perhaps joining forces is a way to keep O gauge train shows viable. NH Joe
1. I agree with you, although isn't "sorting through" stuff part of the game? You know, the "thrill of the hunt" and all that? 😁
2. Probably. 😐
Mark in Oregon
@Strummer posted:1. I agree with you, although isn't "sorting through" stuff part of the game? You know, the "thrill of the hunt" and all that? 😁
2. Probably. 😐
Mark in Oregon
People have told me that the reason they like 2-rail only shows is that they don't have to look at all the 3-rail "junk". They don't like multi-scale shows for the same reason. Some of the HO guys feel the same way. They don't want to look at O and G gauge stuff. Like it or not, that is the attitude of some of our fellow model railroaders. NH Joe
@Strummer posted:1. I agree with you, although isn't "sorting through" stuff part of the game? You know, the "thrill of the hunt" and all that? 😁
Mark in Oregon
No! There is NO thrill in looking at a bunch of stuff that I have ZERO interest in.
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:No! There is NO thrill in looking at a bunch of stuff that I have ZERO interest in.
ECI
So you'd rather cut off your nose to spite your face? 3-railers have to sort through a bunch of stuff we have no interest in at every show as there's pre-war, post-war, MPC, TMCC, Legacy, Vision, DCS, etc. Then there's the inevitable gauntlet of other scales and toy and clothing vendors at every show as well. There's another thread on why 2-rail isn't more popular - attitudes such as yours are certainly a part. No wonder O Scale West resembled a bandit meet at York in everything but the cost.
-Greg
They better do something. Sounds like this show is in a death spiral. $45 to enter a show that provides as hour and half of entertainment!?
If they did allow 3-rail, or other scales, the show would have more attendees. They could then lower the admission price.
@Greg Houser posted:So you'd rather cut off your nose to spite your face? 3-railers have to sort through a bunch of stuff we have no interest in at every show as there's pre-war, post-war, MPC, TMCC, Legacy, Vision, DCS, etc. Then there's the inevitable gauntlet of other scales and toy and clothing vendors at every show as well. There's another thread on why 2-rail isn't more popular - attitudes such as yours are certainly a part. No wonder O Scale West resembled a bandit meet at York in everything but the cost.
-Greg
You've made my argument. With gas prices at $5 a gallon, I'm not driving miles and miles and paying to see stuff I have zero interest in. I have nothing against 3 rail, but I'm not paying to look at a pile of it, and that's what you get when you have mixed shows. Been there, done that.
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:You've made my argument. With gas prices at $5 a gallon, I'm not driving miles and miles and paying to see stuff I have zero interest in. I have nothing against 3 rail, but I'm not paying to look at a pile of it, and that's what you get when you have mixed shows. Been there, done that.
ECI
Nah. You seem to simply be against change. There are some key differences in this situation, namely that 'O Scale West' is synonymous with 2-rail. As such there are unique opportunities to advertise and market the show as "O-Scale West" with "an expanded presence for other scales" (the marketing gurus can come up with a catchy title). The floor plan can even be set up to have dedicated sections for other segments of the hobby to keep the 2-Rail stuff together.
As for paying to shop - do you have a Costco or BJ's membership? Or Amazon? If so, I'm sure you don't have interest in every item and have to deal with looking at items you don't want. What's the difference between that and a multi-scale train show?
-Greg
@EastCoastIron posted:No! There is NO thrill in looking at a bunch of stuff that I have ZERO interest in.
ECI
I suppose that if your only interest in attending a train show is to purchase stuff in your scale that this is a reasonable attitude.
I go to train shows to interact with my fellow model railroaders, see good modeling, talk with old friends, make new friends and generally have a good time. If I find something that I "want" then it is a bonus. I can get all the supplies and models that I need for my model railroad by sitting at my home computer. In fact, I can probably get something faster by sitting at my computer and never leaving the house. eBay, Trainz and various online auctions and vendors have or will have nearly everything ever made in the hobby.
I am going to the NMRA National Convention in St. Louis in August. I know that there will be very little O scale 2-rail for sale at the convention and there are only three O scale layouts on the tour schedule. There won't be any O scale 2-rail modular layouts. However, my goal with model railroading is to have fun and enjoy the company of like minded people. I also enjoy seeing a city that I have never visited before.
I think that single interest train shows will need to evolve as time changes. NH Joe
It intrigues me that you gentlemen think I need your advice on how to live my life. I may reconsider if you were interested in supplying some type of sponsorship. Until that happens I will muddle on. Thanks for your interest.
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:It intrigues me that you gentlemen think I need your advice on how to live my life. I may reconsider if you were interested in supplying some type of sponsorship. Until that happens I will muddle on. Thanks for your interest.
ECI
I don't see where anyone who commented on your statement was offering "advice". 
You gave your opinion; that's fine. It should be equally fine for others to give theirs.
I think (opinion here) that New Haven Joe's take on shows is probably more the norm; for most of us, there's more to a train show than simply finding something to purchase. Plus, you never know what you might uncover, what you might see or who you might meet...
Having said that, by all means don't go to "less scale-specific" shows. There: that's an example of "advice". 
Mark in Oregon
A little survey:
Just curious: How many posting to this thread have 2 rail O scale as their primary interest?
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:A little survey: Just curious: How many posting to this thread have 2 rail O scale as their primary interest?
ECI
Me. I have not posted but I have read the complete thread. My main purpose attending a show is the stuff for sale. Not everything shows up on-line; plus the hazards of shipping are eliminated. Show pricing can sometimes be such a bargain that travel expenses almost fade away. At a show awhile back I found complete ready-to-run Weaver two-bay hoppers for ONE dollar each! Almost as good as free. True, I enjoy the people too, but my main reason is still the product offered.
I am into S gauge and three rail O gauge.
I go to OSW primarily to get old freight car kits that have been built years ago. They have a wonderful patina, almost a natural weathering, plus some have the names of the original owners on the bottom. One of mine was built by a sailor in 1944. I repair them and convert them to three rail with nice Atlas trucks. They make a beautiful freight drag.
@Strummer posted:I don't see where anyone who commented on your statement was offering "advice".
You gave your opinion; that's fine. It should be equally fine for others to give theirs.
I think (opinion here) that New Haven Joe's take on shows is probably more the norm; for most of us, there's more to a train show than simply finding something to purchase. Plus, you never know what you might uncover, what you might see or who you might meet...
Having said that, by all means don't go to "less scale-specific" shows. There: that's an example of "advice".
Mark in Oregon
The only shows I go to are scale specific, and I post here on the 2 Rail Scale forum, which many of you folks seem to be oblivious of.
@EastCoastIron posted:The only shows I go to are scale specific, and I post here on the 2 Rail Scale forum, which many of you folks seem to be oblivious of.
Okay, so there's really not much of a point in continuing here. You've stated you don't want to have to "see stuff you have zero interest in", so you've already solved that "issue".
And, since you asked; although I have interests in several scales, my main interest is indeed 2-rail O (OW5). I will say I have seen some great modeling in scales I'm not into, and often get ideas from models in just about any scale, so I don't really mind "multiple scale" shows. There aren't that many events where I live anyway, so I can't afford to be overly choosy. 
Mark in Oregon
The Indy show used a comfortable set up, 2 rail 0 scale in one ballroom and S scale in an adjoining ballroom.
@Strummer posted:And, since you asked; although I have interests in several scales, my main interest is indeed 2-rail O (OW5). I will say I have seen some great modeling in scales I'm not into, and often get ideas from models in just about any scale, so I don't really mind "multiple scale" shows. There aren't that many events where I live anyway, so I can't afford to be overly choosy.
Mark in Oregon
Yes, geography can certainly be a handicap as far as getting to shows. Distance and time of year being why I've never made it to the "March Meet". Add to that the cost lodging and (particularly now) GAS, and even "local" trips can wreck your budget.
One great "vault" of O scale information is Youtube. This is one of the better videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7d1laEEz4
There is also a series by Terry Terrance. One of those:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAjrZ_t6w28
Enjoy! (There will likely be ads at the beginning of theses videos.)
And yes, there are some exceptional HO layouts on the tube!
ECI
Thanks!
Mark in Oregon
Well, I can certainly understand how folks who are only interested in O-2 trains would not want to go to a mixed show. (It was one of the reasons that when I was interested in antique guns, I absolutely would not go to a combined "Gun & Knife Show". Thirty tables of cheap pocket knives and Rambo knock-offs?? Who cares!)
But, I guess the reality of the situation is, that the 0-2 folks have lost a major show . . . forever. And, given the trends, they may soon lose more.
Perhaps the pure 0-2 shows will move to smaller venues, such as VFW posts, fire stations, or community centers, where the costs are less and the tickets are cheaper. I don't think any huge vendors will bother to come though. For me, that would not be a big negative, since I only go to shows to look at nice used stuff. I can look at brand new stuff all day on the internet. And, considering how bad the lighting is now in the show buildings, I can see a lot more detail in online pictures than in a show building.
Mannyrock
@Mannyrock posted:Well, I can certainly understand how folks who are only interested in O-2 trains would not want to go to a mixed show. (It was one of the reasons that when I was interested in antique guns, I absolutely would not go to a combined "Gun & Knife Show". Thirty tables of cheap pocket knives and Rambo knock-offs?? Who cares!)
But, I guess the reality of the situation is, that the 0-2 folks have lost a major show . . . forever. And, given the trends, they may soon lose more.
Perhaps the pure 0-2 shows will move to smaller venues, such as VFW posts, fire stations, or community centers, where the costs are less and the tickets are cheaper. I don't think any huge vendors will bother to come though. For me, that would not be a big negative, since I only go to shows to look at nice used stuff. I can look at brand new stuff all day on the internet. And, considering how bad the lighting is now in the show buildings, I can see a lot more detail in online pictures than in a show building.
Mannyrock
Reiterating what I mentioned about never having been to the March meet, some of the best shows I have been to were held in fire halls. Some of them were superior to some of the Nationals I have attended. What may be a bigger concern is new stuff! New stuff (2 rail) meaning anything coming from Korea or China, and 2 rail Importers are a vanishing breed.
ECI
@PRRMP54 posted:"My main purpose attending a show is the stuff for sale. Not everything shows up on-line; plus the hazards of shipping are eliminated. Show pricing can sometimes be such a bargain that travel expenses almost fade away. At a show awhile back I found complete ready-to-run Weaver two-bay hoppers for ONE dollar each! Almost as good as free. True, I enjoy the people too, but my main reason is still the product offered."
That has always baffled many who cannot get to the TCA York show. Folks come back and brag about the items they purchased at ridiculously low prices yet the seller never even attempted to sell them anywhere else or online. And we're not talking hard to ship as these things are in their original boxes! 🤷♂️
This was the GEHAMS show in Bakersfield in March. They had more layouts than O Scale West and more vendors. It was held at the Kern County Fairgrounds.
They did not exclude any scales. It was very well attended.
Attachments
Videos (1)
The O narrow summer meet in Harrisburg is this Fri/Sat. I'll be curious to see the attendance and table numbers.
@Alan Rogers posted:This was the GEHAMS show in Bakersfield in March. They had more layouts than O Scale West and more vendors. It was held at the Kern County Fairgrounds.
They did not exclude any scales. It was very well attended.
No real information given. What was the break down by scale? Very likely heavily HO.
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:No real information given. What was the break down by scale? Very likely heavily HO.
ECI
He did write "...had more layouts than O Scale West and more vendors." That's some information.
And sure, probably "heavily HO" because that's the most popular scale.
Not much one can do about that, except for attending exclusive O Scale events... which I think is what this discussion is about.
Again, it all boils down to what (and how much) one is willing to "wade through". Me, I like it all. 😁
Mark in Oregon (where shows are few and far between...)
@EastCoastIron posted:No real information given. What was the break down by scale? Very likely heavily HO.
ECI
There was a large O scale modular layout, a modular S scale and several other layouts in HO and N.
My main point here, is that this organization put on a very successful show that was not held in a hotel ballroom.
My second point is that the days of exclusive scale shows may be over.
@New Haven Joe posted: Perhaps joining forces is a way to keep O gauge train shows viable. NH Joe
What did one of the founding fathers say?
”Hang together so we don’t hang separately.”
@Strummer posted:He did write "...had more layouts than O Scale West and more vendors." That's some information.
And sure, probably "heavily HO" because that's the most popular scale.
Not much one can do about that, except for attending exclusive O Scale events... which I think is what this discussion is about.
Again, it all boils down to what (and how much) one is willing to "wade through". Me, I like it all. 😁
Mark in Oregon (where shows are few and far between...)
Exactly. I may not ever go to another show....might not be able to afford the gas! LOL
That said, if your true interest is "O Scale" (meaning 2 rail*) and you have ever gone to a good O Scale show, those multi-gauge things will not appeal nearly as much (at least that's the way I feel)...and when I went to shows, I was always looking to buy or sell. It's hard enough to find what you want at an O scale only show! It's all what you like. The cost of travel these days, you have to make it count!
*Once upon a time, "O Scale" implied O 2 rail before the three railers appropriated the term (3 rail scale)
ECI
Large successful multiscale shows are the biggest reason to not get into O scale. There is so much more available in the other scales than O. Even the founder of the O Scale Yardsale has just turned that list over to someone else as he is returning to HO because of all the awesome stuff that is available.
The amount of money I could spend in HO would be many times what I could spend in O simply because of the limitations of availability. And I see that as a good thing.
@rdunniii posted:The amount of money I could spend in HO would be many times what I could spend in O simply because of the limitations of availability. And I see that as a good thing.
Richard, I've never had ANY trouble finding stuff to spend money on in O! Sadly, there is NO emoticon for a wounded wallet! LOL
ECI
@mwb posted:The O narrow summer meet in Harrisburg is this Fri/Sat. I'll be curious to see the attendance and table numbers.
Nice full venue - tables and attendees both. Lots of interesting detail parts, structure kits, tool seller, and the usual assortment of odd & ends. Found a few small bits & bobs and had an excellent lunch, too.
This show changed from it's previous time of year? I went out to a Cal-Stewart and as l remember an OSW together at Santa Clara several years ago, and for two years as l remember. (wondered what happened to Cal-Stewart! ) I went out also to explore California, flying, using a rental car, and getting to places like Death Valley in the winter. I heard that California and DV is kinda toasty this time of this year, especially this year. Two shows together and sightseeing made a vacation....rip-off gas, hotels, record heat, airfares, rental cars, (previous two some kind of created shortage?) and the virus makes a trip illogical. Did weather impact attendance? At Timomium, one show had scale in one barn and tinplate in another. I just want to look at O both, but..l am outnumbered, so l wade through all else. Strasburg has been, usually, timed with York, so both can be attended. Timomium is a fairgrounds. York is a fairgrounds. Finding a fairgrounds at Sacramento or else where out of high rent districts may be possible, if not to end of virus and economy recovery.
The dates changed because Levi stadium was completed across the street and the the hotel and thus its ballroom charges went up 10X from ~$100 a night to over $1000 a night any time there is an NFL event at the stadium. This was the only alternative timeframe offered by the hotel at the same rates. Every other place we searched in the west was at least $200 a night including the venue at the time. That includes anywhere in the SF Bay Area, LA area, the Sacramento area Fresno, San Bernardino, Las Vegas and Reno NV area and the Portland and Eugene OR areas.
I suggested to someone on the board of O scale West that they should look at the California Auto Museum in Sacramento as a venue. They have a large enough indoor space with ample parking. It is very close to the California State Railroad Museum.
Hotels in Sacramento range in price, just like anywhere else. The Vagabond Inn at Old Town, where I have been staying for 30 years, is currently $125 per night.
I know the idea of staying in a hotel room and going down an elevator into a ballroom is nice, if you are willing to pay for it.
As a 2 rail O guy, I thank that 3 rail scale guys ought to be welcome at the O scale shows. I met N H Joe at O scale west 2 years ago, and found out that we are Navy vets.
@harley rider posted:As a 2 rail O guy, I thank that 3 rail scale guys ought to be welcome at the O scale shows. I met N H Joe at O scale west 2 years ago, and found out that we are Navy vets.
Hmmmm, I don't think we have ever had an issue with 3-rail scale, scale being the operative word. Just no O Gauge.
@Alan Rogers posted:I suggested to someone on the board of O scale West that they should look at the California Auto Museum in Sacramento as a venue. They have a large enough indoor space with ample parking. It is very close to the California State Railroad Museum.
Hotels in Sacramento range in price, just like anywhere else. The Vagabond Inn at Old Town, where I have been staying for 30 years, is currently $125 per night.
I know the idea of staying in a hotel room and going down an elevator into a ballroom is nice, if you are willing to pay for it.
In the the FWIW column the majority of attendees are older than I am and I'm 72. We have not been able to afford a separate venue. All of them we spoke to the venue charges started at around $10K and went up from there in "desireable" locations. The Reno Convention Center Across the street from the Atlantis Hotel started at $1K per thousand square feet off, off peak with a $15K minimum. Multiple halls like York were considered but the majority of those who responded to surveys we did a few years ago if it is not in a single location they will not attend. The NMRA convention in Sacramento in 2011 was awesome but I was told they needed more than something like 2500 attendees just to break even.
While I think the majority of us in general want to appeal to a younger generation many in our demographic do not and they are vocal about it i.e., I like it the way it is don't change anything". They are happy when no one under ~40 shows up at all. They are dropping like flies so it will get to a point where their voices will taper off. If we're around long enough we may be able to get past that.
