Old New York

We spoke before about the Trolley Terminal at Delancy and Essex Street where the B&QT cars terminated after coming over the Williamsburg Bridge on trackways on the South Side of the Bridge. There was also Trackways on the North Side of the Bridge. These were used by cars on the Metropolitan railroad and later its successor nNew York Railways. Cars operated fro Washington Plaza on the Brooklyn side of the bridge and ran as follows.

Two north-side tracks carried Manhattan streetcars:

    Grand Street Line, 1904-1932

    Post Office Line, 1919-1932 (dowtown manhattan Prk Row area)

    Seventh Avenue-Brooklyn Line, 1911-1919

    8th Street Crosstown Line, 1904-1911

    14th Street-Williamsburg Bridge Line, 1904-1911

    Fourth Avenue and Williamsburg Bridge Line( To Grand Central), 1904-1911

This company was taken over in the 1930s by the Fifth Ave Coach Companywhich replaced its street car routes in Manhattan with Buses. You might remember the distictive double decker busses used on the 5th ave route of that company .

Some photos of this service on the Brooklyn side for your viewing.

And of course , the distinctive double decker on 5th ave in manhattan

Ben, if they want to make that terminal a supermarket why don't they just leave the tracks in place and people could use little miniature locomotives and cars instead of shopping carts to move groceries around the store! LOL!

This is a great thread, thanks guy's

Tin

Hi Folks,

FYI: Here is a neat blog that has nothing but photos of Old New York.

http://onceuponatown.tumblr.com/archive

Ben showed us some models of the IRT Worlds fair Steinways and the BMT Triplex cars at the NJ Hirailers in another post in this section. So here are a few photos of the real thing. The IRT cars, a fleet of 50 handled the worlds fair express service on the IRT Flushing Service in 1939. They remained in service on this line for 10 or so years beyond the fair until the arrival of new cars in the 1949-50 period. They then worked various IRT lines in Manhattan and Bronx and closed out the era on the Third Ave El in the Bronx. The Triplexes arrived on the BMT in the 1920s worked the routes on the Southern Division and were in service into 1964 or so.

Here is a Worlds Fair consist on the Flushing Line ay 52nd st in 1939

A Triplex at Queensborough Plaza in the 1940's . The North Platforms are still in use

We Know the D Types and the worlds Fair cars could be seen at Queensborough Plaza together in the 1939-1949 time frame but havent seen a photo. So Here is a photo from the 1964 Worlds Fair service with the Triplexes arriving at Queensborough Plaza, south platforms on the left and a r-36 Worlds Fair Blue Train on the right

Here is a pic of the last Steinway that I think is in existence  Its sitting in the 207 st yard

This is a great thread! Love the pictures and history.

Ben

Its amazing it even exits . There were only 50 of these built. The intent was to use these cars for the IRT express service to the Worlds Fair. In those days , the Flushing El was Jointly Operated in Queens with the BMT. The BMT Worlds Fair Service was provided by the Q types which the BMT rebuilt from open platform BU cars, known as gate cars. Both the IRT Worlds fair Steinway cars and the Qs worked this line through the 2 years of the Worlds Fair and to 1949 when the joint service was ended. Interestingly.

Both cars went to work on the Third Ave El .  The Q cars went over about 1949-50 running the Manhattan express service.   When the Third Ave El was cut back to the Bronx only north of 149th st, the IRT Worlds fair Steinways found their way to that line, as well as the Ninth Ave 155th st Shuttle and finished out their careers on the third ave El. The Q's came back to the BMT working the Myrtle Ave El until the El closed in 1969. There was a six car set that was painted in the 1939 Worlds fair Orange and Blue and ran a commemorative run on the Flushing line in 1964. It remained in those colors until 1969. Not sure if that the one in the museum.

Third ave El being torn down

Here is a pic of the Q cars at Broadway Junction  The flyover that they are on is fom the Canarsie line  Did they run there also?  Looks like the roofs were already lowered too

I never knew Forneys operated on the Brooklyn bridge also

This is a great pic  Sand street

I think the photo of the El removaal is in the Bronx so it could be from the time when the last piece of the 3rd ave was finally closed.

The Picture of the Q's is interesting. When they returned to Brooklyn from the Third Ave El, The Fulton street El service from Eastern parkway was was already removed with the El in Queens having been tied to the IND A line to the Rockaways and the Lexington Ave El was also long gone. These cars I believe only worked Myrtle Ave. Service. They still had high clerestories when they returned and the cars were painted a maroon body with alluminum roofs i believe from photos i have seen.  These Q's in this photo I am thinkink may be on some sort of a fan trip.Operating on this flyover i think was popular for fan trips in the 1960s

The Brooklyn Bridge service was originally a Cable railway. It soon became a part of the  Brooklyn Els . These were not electrified until about the turn of the century so therefore the Forney. The Long Island RR had a connection with the El at Flatbush ave and some trains ran from Flatbush Ave to Sands street pictured in the photo. Not sure if LIRR went over the Brooklyn Bridge to park Row. We know that the LIRR did operate over the Williamsburg Bridge into Manhattan first to Essex Street and eventually down to Chanmbers street. The Center platform long out of use was I think for LIRR service at Chambers street. This service began in 1908, two years before LIRR service to penn Station was opened.

The photo in the train shed is i believe Park row in Manhattan and not Sand Steet. If you look to the far end, there are two trains in the station and there appears to be a Glass Wall behind them. This terminal was expanded on manhattan so that it reached accross park row as BRT service was expanded. The photo seems to have what appears to be  a date annotation on the bottom right of 1923 or 1933. I think it was taken earlier than that judging by the dress of the person in the foreground on the platform.

Here is a shot of the Park Row terminal from about 1905. In Bens interior photo, we can see that the platform visible in the below photo had been closed in. I think the structure was expanded to the extent of stair cases in the foreground.

Here is a new one  Anybody want to guess where

No clue, but the second boxcar in the foreground looks like a B&O wagontop. New York is my favorite place in the world; the architecture, the parks, the rail system,the people, the roads not so much!

The cobblestones look familiar.  I think its somewhere on the west side of Manhattan.  Between the meat packing district and the garment district.

Richie

Hi Ben

I am thinking that here we are at the Baltimore and Ohio  W 26th street yard  and terminal at on West 25th street looking east. The cars were deliverd by float at W 26th st, crossed under the  West side highway and fed the facility between W 26th and West 24th street. Your photo looks like war time, early 1840s, maybe a sunday morning. Here is another one of the facility and a modelers track plan.

Close   Its date said 1939   The shot is of 33rd street looking east from 11th ave

Interior of a Staten Island car

And another shot of the Perth Amboy ferry

Wow!!!!!  Spectacular pics!!!!!

Peter

Ok Ben you said 1939 looking east on 33rd st. The PRR had a W 37th street yard running from W 37th to West 39th and eventually west 40th. I found a yard photo looking east on 38th street and I cansee the building on the right in your photo with the word MILlS on it .From the attached photo of the PRR yard, this looks like the same spot.So I stand corrected, we are on W 38th street looking east.

That is a great Photo of the Tottenville ferry slip. You can see the boat heading to perth Amboy. Its a good size boat, larger that i remember as a kid.

During the early 1960s, I rode the Myrtle Avenue El to the end of the line at Jay Street in Brooklyn. I was a student at the New York Community College of Applied Arts & Sciences located at 300 Pearle Street which was a short walk from the Myrtle Avenue El.

What type of El cars would I have taken on the Myrtle Avenue Line from 1960 to 1963? I remember they were very old cars, like no other in the city at the time.

Just around the corner from the station at Jay Street was Rosey's Bar where for less than a buck you could get a pastrami sandwich on homemade rye with mustard, a whole pickle and a beer. Brooklyn Polytech was alongside the Myrtle Avenue El Station.

I was traveling from Floral Park in Queens at the time, and there were several routes to college to choose from. The most common route was the the Q43 Bus along Hillside Avenue to 179th Street in Jamaica, the IND E or F Trains to West 4th Street in Manhattan and then the D Train to Jay Street, Brooklyn.

When I rode the Myrtle Avenue El, I took the BMT from 169th Street in Jamaica. Another alternative was the Long Island Rail Road from Floral Park to Woodside where I changed to the IRT at Roosevelt Avenue.

When I had a long break between classes, I would often walk out onto the Brooklyn Bridge. I saw the last aircraft carrier built in the Brooklyn Navy Yard pass under the bridge on one of my walks.

The cars running on the Myrtle Avenue Elevated in the early 1960s were the BMT Q types. They ran on the EL until the EL was closed in 1969. The Q cars began life in the early 1900s as " Gate Cars " used on the Brooklyn Els at that time. In the late 1930's the BMT rebuilt a group of these cars with closed ends and operating doors. The rebuild was to provide for the BMT service on the Flushing and Astoria Els for the 1939 Worlds Fair. They were in use on these Els until 1948-49 when joint IRT /BMT operation of these Els ceased with the BMT getting the Astoria Line and the IRT getting the Flushing Line. The Q cars then went to work on the Third Ave El in MAnhattan until 1956 or so. In the late 1950s they were spruced up and replaced Gate Cars on the Myrtle Ave El in the late 1950s.

When the Myrtle El was closed in 1969, Q cars were used in work train service. Some of these cars lasted into the early 2000' s . Today there are examples on display at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. There is a three car set of gate cars which were rebuilt into the open vestibule Gate configuration from Q cars. These cars may have had one of the longest service life's of an El car in history.

LIRR Steamer,

Thanks for the info re the Myrtle Avenue El cars.

Bobby

a few photos of Q's when they were on the Myrtle Ave Line

This one is 1958 when they began the final assignment on the Myrtle Ave El Ben will like the SIRT car on the left serving as a yard office at Fresh pond.

Heres a train of Q's at Wycoff Ave heading north to Metropolitan ave . There is a transfer point here with the BMT L line. We called it Canarsie Line in those days

Heres a set obviously on a fan trip as they are coming off the Canarsie/Fulton street El at Atlantic Ave coming into Eastern Parkway. This was always a great spot to pose a El Train.

The photos of the Head House are interesting to compare. You can see how the Central sort of modernized the facade with the modified awning. The lettering Ferry seems to occupy the area where NYC was in the building facade. In the later photo looks like there are some lights to illuminate the railroad names. 

In the early photo, a ferry looks to have arrived and pedestrians and cars are coming off the boat. Cars from the Third Ave system and the Green Lines are waiting for passengers.

Here is one from the other side of the river for the NYO&W

This is the Wallabout terminal in Brooklyn

This one isn't New York but gets honorable mention  Camden - phillie ferry

Well Ben's post is a little sneaky here. He is referring to the NYO&W  " from the other side of the river" which after having a post of the Weehawken ferry would make us think New Jersey. But this photo of NYO&W is in Brooklyn, Wallabout terminal. This was a Fresh produce market for the New York area operating from some time in the 1800s. Near the later psrt of the 19th century, it was thought to be the largest market of its kind in the country. Carfoating in NY harbor grew rapidly at this time and with an operation such as Wallabout, it becomes clear in regard to the need for a Bridge spanning the east river to connect Manhattan to Brooklyn and this market.Before that bridge was opened, fresh produce moved to Manhattan from here on the water. 

The terminal was served by the PRR, West shore, NYC, NYO&W, LV, B&O, CNJ via station car floats, ie those with the covered platforms in the center of the car float. Erie had a freight station in the Basin and the BEDT had a car float operation and brought cars in and out of the area. The Lackawanna also had a float and trackage just to the north of the market. The following arial photo, shows the piers and different RRs assigned to the piers. The market was eliminated about 1940 when the Brooklyn navy yard expanded into the area for wartime ship building. BEDT continued to serve the Navy yard after wallabout market operations ceased.

I LIKE THIS ONE  161 ST  3RD AVE EL

Not sure of the story with these   This is St George Staten Island early 1960's

The trolley in the 2nd and 3rd photo is the original prototype PCC car BQT 1000. It was built in 1936 by Clark Car company and is unique in that it was the only PCC ever built by Clark. It ran in Brooklyn for 20 years and was removed from service with the fleet of Brooklyn PCCs in 1956. This car today is at the Trolley Museum in Kingston NY.

Bens photos suggest that this car traveled to Kingston via Staten Island . The automobiles in the photos date the photos to the early 1960s, suggesting that the trip from Brooklyn to the trolley museum to a number of years to make.

Here is 1000 on the McDonald ave Loop

Wow Larry   It took a long time for it to get to Kingston  Have a feeling it sat on that siding for awhile.  It was probably floated over from Brooklyn

Check out this slide presentation   It has a then and now of different parts of the city  Its a little long but it is cool

Fantastic video bluelinec4.  It's really well done and worth watching a couple of times.

Incredible pics......thanks, Ben

Peter

This is probably a good place to ask:  does anyone know what color the Bronx EL structures were painted in the 1930s - early 1940s?  I'm soon going to start the El on the layout (hopefully by end of this year) and want it to be correct.  I've seen films made today that take place back then and they depict it as a light to medium gray color.  I know from memory that in the early 70s it was a dark green - and I don't think it got painted very often!  And it's a dark green today, at least in the area I grew up in, north - up by Gun Hill Road. 

When I was a kid and lived in the Bronx  the Jerome line and the Polo Grounds shuttle structures were painted Black. This was in the late 40's. It needed a paint job then, (as they always do). in the early 50's the TA painted the all the els Pea Green. I think that the black color of the IRT elevated structures were all the original paint. 

Goog luck on your project. It is fun building an el structure and watching the trains run on it.

When I was a kid and lived in the Bronx  the Jerome line and the Polo Grounds shuttle structures were painted Black. This was in the late 40's. It needed a paint job then, (as they always do). in the early 50's the TA painted the all the els Pea Green. I think that the black color of the IRT elevated structures were all the original paint. 

Goog luck on your project. It is fun building an el structure and watching the trains run on it.

If you look to the right on the first photo of PCC car 1000 atSt. George Staten Island you can see the Queensboro Bridge Master Unit trolley. The QB car,an Atlantic City Car and Brooklyn Peter Witt 8367 were all in the yard. I and a few guys went down there from the Bronx and worked on the Peter Witt. Everett White along with some other folks saved the four cars for the Trolley Museum of NY. The 1000 an 8367 went to Coney Island yard from there and were being restored. Mike Hanna, Don Harold and others were responsible for that. On day a new boss took over the shop and stopped the work and threw the cars out. They wound up going to Kingston.

One day some years back In went to the Richmondtown restoration site to remove what was left of a single truck Midland Railway trolley. While there we found pieces of the 8367 car and was gives the parts which is now with the car.

Nate

As a kid in the 60's.living in Brooklyn, we used to take a day trip in the Summer that included the Staten Island Ferry, SIRT to Totenville, ferry to Perth Amboy, walk about 6 blocks to a bus to the PA bus terminal and then home. It was less than a buck and killed a day with sightseeing.

Fantastic.

I especially liked the 3 slides of Grand central Station and 1 of Grand Central Terminal!  Didn't know we had 2 places named so similarly <G>.

I also like the Coentis slip slide.  It's now 55 Water Street, where I worked for 33 years.  

Amazing video!  And soothing music from Hans.  Was wondering what he's bee up to since he left this forum. 

Bill I see his name on music in just about every movie released

Great Video Ben. In the opening scene,I believe that is the Cunard Line ship of the line "Aquitania", arriving on a transAtlantic Crossing. She was launched in 1913 and made her maiden voyage on May 30th, 1914. She made more than 450 voyages and went to War twice in her 36 year career at Sea. She was a very popular vessel with passengers being called "ship beautiful" , enjoyed the longest career of a passenger liner prior to the QE 2 which made 40 years. She was the last 4 stacker to cross the Atlantic in regular service, and was withdrawn in 1950. Here are some photos of "Aquitania"

 at Sea

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 arrival in New York

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