Operating LC+ with Other Conventional Engines

Lion Chief will run on less than 18 volts. It just won't go as fast, just like conventional. You could just set it to 14 volts like the conventional loop you had running (or whatever voltage your other loop is running).

Sounds like it's gonna take a bit of concentration to get used to new operations. No worries though you built it, you can master it. I'm lucky I don't have a complicated road plan but can certainly understand your situation.

I think you do have to learn/change SOP and it helps if the LC+ and conventional locos look far different.  

My SOP change is: I operate under a "the conventional loco rules and the LC+ accomodate it" rule.  

I often - usually now - run LC+ in conjunction with trains I run conventionally, on the same loop.  For instance yesterday I was running a Legacy Mallet (conventionally) pulling a dozen scael reefers along with two LC+ steamer freight trains, all on one loop.  the mallet is bigger and louder than the other two and its not easy to forget who is "the boss" here.  

The loop is 130 feet around and each train was maybe 15-18 feet long so there was about 25-30 feet between then when evenly spaced around the loop.  I started the Mallet and got it going with the LC+ engines adjusted to keep pace, watched them for a while until I was sure I had them adjusted right, and then just watched.  With a lttiel practice I get these puppies to where they stay spaced evenly for an hour or more.

This works, but you have to decide if you want to do it.  I carry a metal ballpoint pen in my pocket.  On those (now) rare occasions when I am not near the controls and I see impending disaster, as two trains about to bump, etc.  I have been known to snatch it out of my pocket and slam it onto the rails, shorting the track and letting the ZW-L's protection shut down power and immediately stop the trains. Early on it saved a couple of bad incidents.

Lee, wouldn't it be better to just have an RC controlled switch to kill the power?   You could hang it around your neck like a Life Alert dongle.  It's new life for the trains that are about to crash!

I think you're right about concentrating, but that's something I don't really want to do when the trains are running. I kind of like to veg out. And yeah, the layout is rather complicated but it is what it is. I guess when it's time to change trains it should be time to wake up from whatever zone I'm in and put on the thinking cap.

Lee's metal ballpoint pen idea is a a hoot! I spend a great amount of time trying to prevent short circuits. I'll have to remember that one.

 Because I used to speed read, without thinking, I sort of glance, and review whole sections of text, before I actually read it close.

 My first visual from doing this was you stabbing the pen down between the ties, giving the loco a metal tree to hit

I've done that "short trick" sooo many times since I was a kid 

 Except I throw my keys, if I don't have the flip-flop screwdriver, or needle nose with me.

 At least you aren't waiting for PW breakers like I have to!

I'm also guilty of shorting them for cycling the e-unit again to continue again too  

Me too.  What we learn at age seven becomes a lifelong habit . . . 

I attempted to run them with O-27, the different voltage response curves, Lionchief peak speed at 18 volts O-27 at 14 volts lead to them being unsafe to run together. Fortunately on different loops, then I guess that is a problem of standard O-gauge and O-27 engines running together will have.

I'm not sure I understand your comment so I will be more clear about how I get them to keep pace so I am understood.  

When I run two locos, one conventional, one LC+, on the same loop, I set the voltage to about whatever makes the conventional loco run at the right speed I want, then run the LC+ loco in remote mode, adjusting its speed with the remote's wheel until it keeps pace six volts: I have five steamers and two diesels.  LC+ locos can be run at up to 18 volts, but you don't have to run them at that.  All of mine "wake up" at 6 volts and run nicely at 8 and above. They might run well below that voltage, I just haven't tried.  At 9 to 12 volts - the voltage range I typically run conventional locos in, they pull well.  

Basically what I meant was the in my possession, all original parts MPC era O-27 engines were designed for their top speed to be reached at 14 volts, O-gauge or what I have lionchief reaches its top speed when at 18 volts. As for starting voltage, the O-27 starts at about 5 volts while the Lionchief, not plus, starts at about 12 volts, O-27 MPC is already near top speed at that voltage, and at 18 volts went air born, from the transformer dial readout.

In summery the O-27 engines I used need less voltage for a given speed, making it unsafe to run them together on the same power district.

I hope that clears up what I said. Admittedly I am using the more toy like and less advanced engines that I don't see much of here on the forum and trying to explain their oddities is easier in video than words at times.

Allin, study how LC+ works and how you can use it to control speed.  This is not an issue.

Not at all.

Hm, I have the distinct feeling we are talking past each other. Which is cool. I agree with you as confusing as that sounds.

I have no MPC era engines so I don't know. But you can run both in conventional (just turn LC+ to conventional): just never go over 14 volts.  My LC+ locos, in conventional, go much faster than I would ever want toem to go at 14 volts, so over that is a moot point.  LC+ locos start at around 6 volts so you are not giving up much at the low end.   You can run them both between 6 and 14 volts.

But of course, LC+ run so much better in remote mode.  I don't have any MPC locos, but if I did and wanted to run them together, nicely, on the same loop, I would:

1) Switch the LC+ loco to remote

2) Never run your power supply past 14 volts: if the MPC loco will be damaged by higher voltages install a limit barrier on the throttle or something so you don't inadvertently . . . . I installed a small bolt to limit throttle travel in a situation where I had to limit voltage to 15.

3) Put the conventional loco on the track and run it a bit until you get it to roughly the speed you like - let's say ten volts.  Remember that throttle position.

4) Power down the track and put the LC+ loco on the track.

5) Turn on the LC+'s remote, set it to zero speed (pointed straight up) and leave it on for the duration of the operating session, even if you power down the track for a while at any point.

5) Power up the track to that remembered position, as it was before - the ten volts.  As you power up, if the MPC loco reacts like most locos I have it will start in neutral by six volts and come alive, in neutral, and the LC+ will come alive at 6 volts, not beeping because its remote is already on.  If the conventional loco starts in forward, quickly pu it into neutral.  

6) With the conventional loco in neutral and the power at the set ten volts, turn the knob on the remote to the speed you want the LC+ loco to go.  At "reduced" voltage ( the ten volts here you want to use for the conventional loco) the LC+ will not run up to its top speed, but its control system will run it nicely at any low and mid-range setting, and it will pull well if not as well as when running at 18.

6) You can now use the direction button to kick the conventional loco out of neutral and return it to the direction and speed you wanted it to run at.  the LC+ loco will pause each time you do, but ultimately it will not care, coming back to its orignal setting after every push of the direction button.  As you adjust the throttle to precisely control the speed of the conventional loco up or down, it won't care until you get to about 7 volts low, so you have a range, about 7-8 to 14 volts, where the LC+ loco will continue to follow orders from its remote and you can vary the throttle to control to speed of the conventional loco, too.

7) I use this method when I am running conventional and up to threeLC+ locos this way on my big loop.  This morning I will be running a Legacy Mallet in conventional mode at around 11 volts, and three LC+ steamers: I will match the Mallet's speed with the three LC+ locos so the four trains are spaced evening on the same loop.

8) Theoretically, there is a possibility that this "trick" would not work, that the voltage response curves of the LC+ loco would not overlap the conventional locos at all, so it could never keep up with the conventional at any voltage in the range.  I'm not sure this was intended when they were designed, but instead it is probably a consequence of the roughly 3 volts drop that the control system keeps "in reserve" and does not pass to the motor to provide it its operating margin for speed control.

9) Remember to turn off the remote or you will need new batteries the next day.

10) Does running LC+ locos at reduced voltage hurt them?  Frankly I don't know.  I'm concerned enough about overheating the motors that I don't run them for long at less than 8 volts, but I have an IR temperature sensor gun and have shot them when running at eight volts and they seem as cool as at 16 (as high as I ever run them, I see no reason to go to 18 so I keep a slightly margin below that).  And of course, I have five I run this way every day just about, and have for a long time, and so far, no problems.  

I have noticed that while my LC+ Mikado will run fine at voltages less than 18, at below 14 volts or so, the remote uncoupler feature becomes unreliable.

Bill in FtL

The smoke is a little weaker, too, but frankly it is too smoky at more than 16 volts.

The couplers on most TMCC or Legacy stuff are pretty unreliable at those voltages as well.