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I was ask recently what the difference and when were they manufactured, of passenger cars. Specifically, Madison, Lightweight, Heavyweight and streamlined. I think I answered correctly but not completely. Madison were the original wooden clerestory roof passenger cars. Heavy weight were the same but included steel or cast iron. Lightweight were all steel or aluminum and streamlined is today's sleek cars. I know fluted side cars fit somewhere in here also. Now the question is how far off am I? I am bothered by my answer as I am not sure it is correct or full. Any help would be appreciated.

Curtis - Old but still learning or at least trying to!

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Curtis,

I think you have a few too many categories of cars.  Originally, passenger cars  were modified stage coaches or other wagons, then made out of wood.  Composite wood and steel (or iron) cars were next, ultimately to be succeeded by "all-steel" cars.  These all steel cars are usually referred to as "heavyweights".  In model form, they include the "Madisons" which is a term applied by hobbyists initially to the Bakelite cars brought out by Lionel in the 40s.  One of the cars was named "Madison" and the name became a label for cars of this type, extending into the modern era with "Baby Madisons" which are slightly shortened versions of those original cars.  No real cars were ever termed "Madisons".

Lightweight cars refer typically to all  "streamlined" cars, whether smooth-sided or fluted.  The use of modern materials often resulted in cars being lighter in weight than their older cousins...but not always.  Modern stainless or Corten cars could be just as heavy or heavier than older units.  But the term, "lightweights", stuck.

Fluting was an innovation of the Budd Company and resulted from the method which they  used to build all stainless-steel  "lightweight"cars.  In Budd-built cars, the bodies actually are part of the structure and help to add strength.  Budd's process was patented.  In order to compete, companies like Pullman and American Car and Foundry often applied fluted paneling on top of frames or shells built of other metals.  Eventually, many of these cars experienced corrosion forcing the railroad owners to remove the fluted panels and apply paint to the car sides.

By the way, there were some examples of aluminum used as a car building metal.  These are relatively rare.  Whereas aluminum is used frequently to model passenger cars, their prototypes are stainless steel, not aluminum.

Hope that helps.

Joe Silien

To take this one step further, what should traditional heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

What should scale heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

I have a 5 pack of Norfolk and Western heavyweights that are 18" long, not much taller than a traditional boxcar, and the same width as a traditional J.

They look long behind a traditional J and short and narrow behind the scale J.

Joe S posted:

Curtis,

I think you have a few too many categories of cars.  Originally, passenger cars  were modified stage coaches or other wagons, then made out of wood.  Composite wood and steel (or iron) cars were next, ultimately to be succeeded by "all-steel" cars.  These all steel cars are usually referred to as "heavyweights".  In model form, they include the "Madisons" which is a term applied by hobbyists initially to the Bakelite cars brought out by Lionel in the 40s.  One of the cars was named "Madison" and the name became a label for cars of this type, extending into the modern era with "Baby Madisons" which are slightly shortened versions of those original cars.  No real cars were ever termed "Madisons".

Lightweight cars refer typically to all  "streamlined" cars, whether smooth-sided or fluted.  The use of modern materials often resulted in cars being lighter in weight than their older cousins...but not always.  Modern stainless or Corten cars could be just as heavy or heavier than older units.  But the term, "lightweights", stuck.

Fluting was an innovation of the Budd Company and resulted from the method which they  used to build all stainless-steel  "lightweight"cars.  In Budd-built cars, the bodies actually are part of the structure and help to add strength.  Budd's process was patented.  In order to compete, companies like Pullman and American Car and Foundry often applied fluted paneling on top of frames or shells built of other metals.  Eventually, many of these cars experienced corrosion forcing the railroad owners to remove the fluted panels and apply paint to the car sides.

By the way, there were some examples of aluminum used as a car building metal.  These are relatively rare.  Whereas aluminum is used frequently to model passenger cars, their prototypes are stainless steel, not aluminum.

Hope that helps.

Joe Silien

Ok excellent. Now I assume that Clerestory roofs are Madison's?

Thanks for the description and quickness.

Curtis

It’s fine to ask questions here, but it’s better to do a little bit of research before you try to answer a question yourself. It looks like you made some broad assumptions and then created facts and terms to match your assumptions.

Much of the information you sought was readily available with the most basic web searches. For instance, it is widely known that streamlined passenger cars were introduced in the 1930s. Even a Wikipedia summary would have sufficed:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streamliner

And, yes, there is no Madison term used for the prototype. Likewise for “lightweight” cars, not even in the model world. You can use the term generically, but it’s not a common category of cars.

There’s lots more information out there, including databases of passenger cars, locomotives and more railroad info, including when they were made.

 

SPFord27 posted:

To take this one step further, what should traditional heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

What should scale heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

I have a 5 pack of Norfolk and Western heavyweights that are 18" long, not much taller than a traditional boxcar, and the same width as a traditional J.

They look long behind a traditional J and short and narrow behind the scale J.

Well that Depends.

  • The Atlas O Trainman cars along with the 3rd Rail brass passenger cars. 
  • Golden Gate Depot Harriman , P70, P70FAR, and Heavyweight cars are scale cars.
  • 3rd rail brass6
  • GGDl002
  • Streamliners are 85' long so 21" are close to scale length.
  • Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets002Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets010
  • Streamline Baggage cars are are shorter than full length Streamliner coaches so at 18" long they are full scale cars.
  • the PRR P54 cars are also scale and are only 64' in length and are approximately the length of Lionel "Madison coaches"
  • K-line 21" streamliners are scale cars.

 

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Images (4)
  • 3rd rail brass6
  • GGDl002
  • Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets002
  • Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets010
Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve
prrhorseshoecurve posted:
SPFord27 posted:

To take this one step further, what should traditional heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

What should scale heavyweight and lightweight cars measure?

I have a 5 pack of Norfolk and Western heavyweights that are 18" long, not much taller than a traditional boxcar, and the same width as a traditional J.

They look long behind a traditional J and short and narrow behind the scale J.

Well that Depends.

  • The Atlas O Trainman cars along with the 3rd Rail brass passenger cars. 
  • Golden Gate Depot Harriman , P70, P70FAR, and Heavyweight cars are scale cars.
  • 3rd rail brass6
  • GGDl002
  • Streamliners are 85' long so 21" are close to scale length.
  • Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets002Weaver-PRR-21inch-sets010
  • Streamline Baggage cars are are shorter than full length Streamliner coaches so at 18" long they are full scale cars.
  • the PRR P54 cars are also scale and are only 64' in length and are approximately the length of Lionel "Madison coaches"
  • K-line 21" streamliners are scale cars.

 

So how long should the scale heavyweights be if the streamline cars are 21”? 

The cars I have do not have any interior, just the silhouettes. They are 17.5” long, 3.5” tall and 2.4” wide. I am assuming they are traditional and not scale.

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Images (2)
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Jim R. posted:

It’s fine to ask questions here, but it’s better to do a little bit of research before you try to answer a question yourself. It looks like you made some broad assumptions and then created facts and terms to match your assumptions.

Much of the information you sought was readily available with the most basic web searches. For instance, it is widely known that streamlined passenger cars were introduced in the 1930s. Even a Wikipedia summary would have sufficed:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streamliner

And, yes, there is no Madison term used for the prototype. Likewise for “lightweight” cars, not even in the model world. You can use the term generically, but it’s not a common category of cars.

There’s lots more information out there, including databases of passenger cars, locomotives and more railroad info, including when they were made.

 

I did do a little research but I do hope you do NOT rely on Wikipedia. It is a data base created by anyone who wishes to contribute and there is a LOT of incorrect information on it. I have been burned by it and will never rely on it again. Yes I am aware that the classifications we are discussing are not real life but modeler world. As for my original answer to the person whom I was speaking with, what I did report was fairly accurate but added a class simply because he added and ask about it. Hence why I came here to get a better clarification. I believe what I read here more than Wikipedia simply because it is corrected if wrong almost instantly. There is so much you can learn from people, like yourself, here it is almost always better to check info acquired in other locations that might not seem correct here. My experience is people here are for the most part very knowledgeable and if not sure will state it in their answer. I consider this Forum a top modeler spot and recommend it to everyone whom I have discussions with.

Thank you for your answers as they sure help clear things up so I can explain it better to him.

Curtis

Not intended to be harsh. I’m merely suggesting that you do the research before offering your thoughts as an answer to another person’s question, as you alluded to in your initial post. Why give anyone the wrong information before learning yourself?

Second, question yourself. In your initial assumptions, you created a reality that was clearly of your own making. Why not seek answers first instead?

For instance, I don’t know how the modern electronics which control our locomotives, and make them marvelous replicas, are made. So I won’t create an idea in my head about how they might be made. Rather, I’d study how they are made, when I decide to. That way, I don’t have to unlearn my assumptions.

In this case, I suggest you study real-life passenger equipment. I can tell that with your questions are the correct length of the cars that you still think all heavyweights were one length, all streamliners were another length, and so forth. That’s not how it works. Lengths of railroad equipment varies by railroad, by time and by underlying business factors. And don’t use O gauge models as true 1:48 representations of the prototype. O gauge cars, even those labeled as scale cars, are often shorter than the prototype they purport to represent.

As for asking people on the forum what is correct, I have seen answers on various topics that in many cases were flat out wrong. So you are forced to do research in the end anyway to get the correct information. So I suggest asking people were you can get reliable, accurate information from online or traditional print sources instead.

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