Peeved with MTH over engine defect.

Unfortunately, This has been a "defacto standard" for decades.  This is the risk you take from purchasing from a mail order house compared to a full time dealer... if you have that option of a dealer nearby.

Soxfan posted:

I noticed that the tender coupling was dragging on the middle rail (not properly attached). In fact, there was smoke (never good) when part of this assemble touched the center rail.

Thanks, Paul

 

 

Do people NOT inspect their trains BEFORE they put them on the track?  If you noticed it dragging WHY did you try to run it??? (Good God I sound like Hot Water )

Maybe it's the same thing as folks who get shot while "cleaning their guns"...WIUWT (What Is Up With That)?

Bob Delbridge posted:

Soxfan posted:

I noticed that the tender coupling was dragging on the middle rail (not properly attached). In fact, there was smoke (never good) when part of this assemble touched the center rail.

Thanks, Paul

 

 

Do people NOT inspect their trains BEFORE they put them on the track?  If you noticed it dragging WHY did you try to run it??? (Good God I sound like Hot Water )

Maybe it's the same thing as folks who get shot while "cleaning their guns"...WIUWT (What Is Up With That)?

DIDN'T NOTICE TILL HE PUT IT ON THE TRACK

The wireless tether is a bad design, lots of people have trouble with it becoming disconnected. Known problem.

I would call the high-volumn,reputable mth dealer first.

Doug

I would have sent it back to the dealer you bought it from. If he is high volume and reputable he would have pains the shipping costs and sent you a new engine or full refund

Walter Anderson posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Soxfan posted:

I noticed that the tender coupling was dragging on the middle rail (not properly attached). In fact, there was smoke (never good) when part of this assemble touched the center rail.

Thanks, Paul

 

 

Do people NOT inspect their trains BEFORE they put them on the track?  If you noticed it dragging WHY did you try to run it??? (Good God I sound like Hot Water )

Maybe it's the same thing as folks who get shot while "cleaning their guns"...WIUWT (What Is Up With That)?

DIDN'T NOTICE TILL HE PUT IT ON THE TRACK 

And STILL turned the power on and smoked the engine.

Craignor posted:

The wireless tether is a bad design, lots of people have trouble with it becoming disconnected. Known problem.

He was talking about a coupler not a drawbar?  While some do not like it, it does work fine for many.  G

Agreed that I should have inspected more carefully before placing on track. Howe er, I have never had a problem like this in over 20 years so likely was complacent.

The larger problem here however, IMHO, is the manufacturer's response. Contrast with my experience with Menards when I received a damaged structure.  Mark asked that i send him pictures  and they promptly sent me a RA and paid the postage both ways.  Quick, easy.

Paul

Soxfan, Did you contact the "hi-volume"  MTH dealer? What is/was their response?

I totally agree that IF it's a defect the Mfg. should pay shipping both ways. It's their defective product and they sold it.

Soxfan posted:

Agreed that I should have inspected more carefully before placing on track. Howe er, I have never had a problem like this in over 20 years so likely was complacent.

 

The larger problem here however, IMHO, is the manufacturer's response. Contrast with my experience with Menards when I received a damaged structure.  Mark asked that i send him pictures  and they promptly sent me a RA and paid the postage both ways.  Quick, easy.

 

Paul

Here is the difference on your Menard purchase, It was direct from a store.  The coupler damage could have been a shipping issue and the plastic T broke, dropping the coupler down.  Going back to the place of purchase vice manufacturer.

Manufactures could price in one return shipping on every item, but then folks who don't have issues or buy from a LHS would be paying for insurance not needed.

I can understand the frustration though.  Just the nature of this small business.  G

Some high volume dealers, one a forum sponsor, will not take returns. Defective items must be shipped to the manufacturer. Needless to say, I don't care how low the prices are, I buy else where. Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have had excellent luck with MTH products.

Bob

CP Bob, many high end dealers do not have repair people working for them and have to do that.   Remember, just because a dealer sells trains, that does not say he has the ability to fix them.

Soxfan, if you observed the coupler hanging low and still put the engine on the track and powered up, you probably blew the tender board.  That is on you.  Why would you do this?  Many would not have the nerve to let people know they did something like that.  I have worked on a few of those engines recently and MTH should turn it around quickly for you.  Why would you think MTH is the bad guy asking you to pay $26.00 to send it back.  With the coupler situation you may have been able to resolve the issue at your dealer.  If he is a high end dealer, he would have sent you a new engine and a call tag for your old one.  

Jim1939, the dealer sold it.  MTH had it made.  Many things can happen to an engine after it leaves Columbia drive.   Everyone wants to dump this on MTH.  MTH did not damage the coupler and then give the engine  a hot shot.  Yes, they will fix it free.   Soxfan should have returned it to his dealer and get another locomotive.   Couplers are cheap.  Boards are not cheap.  MTH is taking this on the chin for more than Soxfan $26.00.

Well stated,Marty. I unfortunately ended up in a customer service job after retiring from Pd, too. While customers are right to expect the product to be made correctly by the mfg when they put out cash for it, if the see an obvious problem and still use it, they play a part in the end result. Some don't like to hear it, which is why I won't be where I am much longer, but you have spoken the truth here. Things happen. Shipping issues, mfg issues, handling in packing.

Would I be irritated if I took a loco out of the box and saw an obvious problem? Sure! But would I risk my investment by tracking, and powering it up? I don't think so.

Jim, it has always bothered me when I see people ruin good electronics.  This did not have to be.  

The OP, would STILL have been on the hook for the shipping to MTH, regardless of whether he powered it up or not. He did not say anything about having to pay for a board. If an item is defective out of the box, or a legitimate warranty repair, in my opinion, the customer should NOT have to pay the shipping to have it repaired. If the MFR, had to pay the shipping both ways on WARRANTY work, maybe it would make them more serious about QUALITY CONTROL.

  This is not just an MTH thing, I have had plenty of QC issues with Lionel as well. Warranty Repair shipping should NOT be at the customers expense, PERIOD. It should work, or be repaired, at no additional expense to the customer.

Doug

Marty if we see something wrong with a new out of the box product then NO we should not run it. I'm just saying they should pay for shipping, it's new, they sold it. However toy trains are not the only product where the customer has to pay  for returning a new defective product it is industry wide.

Doug, he will not have to pay for a board.  MTH will have to eat that.  The point I made was this did not have to happen.  The board was not mentioned as defective out of the box.  His coupler issue led to that.  You can take your point up with MTH or Lionel and keep us posted.  Some things in life we have control, some we do not.  Nobody here on the forum has any say in the matter.   I am not saying I disagree with you.  Anyone who has any knowledge of working on trains know what the poster did.  

 Some things in life we have control, some we do not.  Nobody here on the forum has any say in the matter.

True, but when it comes to toy trains, everybody has control.
Don't like the warrantee program, don't buy the product.
Doesn't matter what brand.

C W Burfle posted:

 Some things in life we have control, some we do not.  Nobody here on the forum has any say in the matter.

True, but when it comes to toy trains, everybody has control.
Don't like the warrantee program, don't buy the product.
Doesn't matter what brand.

Problem is then that leaves you with very few choices.  I'm not saying I disagree but very few manufacturers/importers have a policy of shipping both ways.  Yes I could buy one that does but without the features I want.  It really is a no win scenario.

This is a dealer issue for resolution.  As stated, MTH should not have to deal with shipping costs each way unless they are the responsible party (i.e., a direct sale by MTH which fails strictly due to a clearcut manufacturing defect).

CW  said it all.  He is correct.   Very well stated.   We all get caught from time to time with something defective.  It happens.  You have the choice on how you want to deal with it or not.

I am sure many of you see a post I throw out from time to time stating I am looking to buy your inoperative shelf queens.  That post rains trains.  Many are two minute fixes and I will offer the locomotive back to the seller.  Some take me up on my offer and some do not.  I hear many times people do not want to send a locomotive to MTH or Lionel because they think a repair will cost a fortune.   MTH and Lionel are very reasonable with prices.  By spending a few bucks to send a locomotive back, it will get fixed right and they will get it back to you.  If I were a customer with a bad locomotive, I would want the right people working on my engine.  Today, Lionel is doing great work with Dean Brass eur in charge and MTH now has Jason Wenzel running the show.  These two men forgot more about fixing trains than anyone else.  

Getting back to C.W. Burfle,  "everybody has control"   If I did not have another resource, I would be happy to send my trains to Lionel or MTH to be fixed.

While I take no opinion as to wether the OP deserves to have the shipping paid I know there is one thing he certainly doesn't deserve. That thing that he doesn't deserve is to be harassed about not doing a technician level inspection of the loco prior to running it. That whole concept is unreasonable. When you buy a product you take it home and expect it to work. If the OP only found the problem after trying to run it then so be it. It is still a warranty defect. I used to work on very expensive cars (100k plus). If an oil pressure sender leaked and the customer drove around with oil spilling out until the engine seized some of you would say that the manufacturer should only cover the oil pressure sender not the engine. Well that is not the way it works. There is something called consequential damage. The consequence of that $99 oil pressure sender failing was that the 12K engine failed; and sorry boys it was covered under warranty. So if that offends your sense of anti-consumerism, so be it. A company, any company is not only known by their products but by the attitude of persons associated with that company. If the folks bashing the OP have any affiliation with MTH then it reflects very poorly on MTH and makes me reconsider buying their products. I wonder how MTH would feel about the bashing of one of their customers. Heck, I may just send them the link to this thread and let them judge for themselves.

Frank

Frank,  nobody cares that you worked on 100K vehicles.    If you saw a leaky oil pressure  switch, you would not continue to drive the car or I hope you would not.   Some people would and those people deserve to pay.  I know and understand cars having grown up in the business.  Before I joined the P.D. I was a Navy school trained aircraft/helicopter  mechanic.    I think you not buying MTH products will not upset anyone.   Do you buy MTH engines?  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

"When you buy a product you take it home and expect it to work."

Man, come into the 21st century.

"I am sure many of you see a post I throw out from time to time stating I am looking to buy your inoperative shelf queens."

I never have seen those posts, Marty.  Not that I'd part with my Berkshire.  What do you do with the "unshelfed" queens? 

Fix them and sell them.  Some go back to sellers.  I usually keep some.  

Always got a return shipping label from MTH. No problem. Called them , talked to tec support and received a return label. Also good turnaround time.  This is with HO and O gauge  No complaints here.  Yet!

By the way....NOBODY says Peeved anymore....

Frank,  nobody cares that you worked on 100K vehicles.

I do.

ChooChoo1972 posted:

While I take no opinion as to wether the OP deserves to have the shipping paid I know there is one thing he certainly doesn't deserve. That thing that he doesn't deserve is to be harassed about not doing a technician level inspection of the loco prior to running it. That whole concept is unreasonable. When you buy a product you take it home and expect it to work. If the OP only found the problem after trying to run it then so be it. It is still a warranty defect. I used to work on very expensive cars (100k plus). If an oil pressure sender leaked and the customer drove around with oil spilling out until the engine seized some of you would say that the manufacturer should only cover the oil pressure sender not the engine. Well that is not the way it works. There is something called consequential damage. The consequence of that $99 oil pressure sender failing was that the 12K engine failed; and sorry boys it was covered under warranty. So if that offends your sense of anti-consumerism, so be it. A company, any company is not only known by their products but by the attitude of persons associated with that company. If the folks bashing the OP have any affiliation with MTH then it reflects very poorly on MTH and makes me reconsider buying their products. I wonder how MTH would feel about the bashing of one of their customers. Heck, I may just send them the link to this thread and let them judge for themselves.

 

Frank

 

I had a neighbor buy a brand new Deere combine (415K) and decided that because it also came with a 3 year manufacture warranty, he didn't need to do any inspections or basic maintenance when he wanted to operate it.  After year two, the manufacture said he was on the hook for the warranty repairs due to negligence of the machine. The dealer told him that a extremely simple walk around and basic maintenance would have prevented the nearly 35K repair bill the machine incurred, there were so many bearings out he was lucky that it didn't burn up in the field and take the crop with it.

When I buy a new or used engine and pull it out of the box, I inspect it before I run it. That first few times around the track, I watch it carefully and it gets 100% of my attention. A loose or dragging couple is an easy catch.

"If the folks bashing the OP have any affiliation with MTH then it reflects very poorly on MTH and makes me reconsider buying their products."

Why would you avoid MTH products on the unwarranted assumption that some of the posters are "affiliated" with MTH?  Please state the basis for this assumption. 

RJR posted:

"If the folks bashing the OP have any affiliation with MTH then it reflects very poorly on MTH and makes me reconsider buying their products."

Why would you avoid MTH products on the unwarranted assumption that some of the posters are "affiliated" with MTH?  Please state the basis for this assumption. 

Well, there are These,

Marty Fitzhenry's Signature Line:

TCA-79-13758

T.T.O.S.-3057

LCCA-28444

LOTS-RM-4833

MTH DCS and Wi-Fi  Beta Tester

MTH Factory  Certified Technician-6 schools

LIONEL Factory Trained certified  repair Technician #10140

Member Mid America 3 Railers and NJ HiRailers

And GGG's Signature Line:

MTH Authorized Service Center

Authorized ERR Dealer

Lionel Independent Repair Tech

Virginia Train Collectors Member

Unless you question their credibility, I have no reason to.

Doug

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Doug, he will not have to pay for a board.  MTH will have to eat that.  The point I made was this did not have to happen.  The board was not mentioned as defective out of the box.  His coupler issue led to that.  You can take your point up with MTH or Lionel and keep us posted.  Some things in life we have control, some we do not.  Nobody here on the forum has any say in the matter.   I am not saying I disagree with you.  Anyone who has any knowledge of working on trains know what the poster did.  

Marty, Please re-read the original post, and mine, The OP was not complaining about the board, his complaint was about having to pay the shipping back to MTH, for an IMPROPERLY ATTACHED COUPLER, that caused the problems, this was a problem before he put it on the track, and did not see it until after powering it up, is the way that I read his post. The COUPLER was defective and it sounds as if it, in itself was a legitimate warranty repair, which in MY Opinion the customer should not have to pay for the shipping, it may be a "Defacto Industry Standard" but that doesn't make it RIGHT, it just means that the manufacturers have so far gotten away with charging customers for something that they shouldn't be charging them for(in MY OPINION, anyway)

 Also, PLEASE speak only for yourself, You may not care if Frank worked on 100K cars, but there are MANY issues on which we do not agree. In MY opinion, Franks comments were just as valid as yours. If a customer had an oil sensor leaking, and didn't know it, and it resulted in engine damage, I would Hope that the MFR would stand behind it. There is a HUGE difference between being unaware of a problem, and Ignoring a problem.

BTW, because of the POOR Quality Control and in MY EXPERIENCE, POOR Customer Service of the Big 2 Manufacturers, I have decided to not purchase their products. I have enough to open a small LTS, so even though there are things that I would enjoy having, the troubles that I have personally experienced has led me to feel that the products are not worth either the price or the potential headaches. I have had enough issues of my own, and have decided that there are other uses for my disposable income that would give me more enjoyment for my investment,(NO, I don't consider trains a FINANCIAL investment, but do consider Hobbies an investment in my mental health) than the current trouble prone products.

BTW, did you say Hi, to your Friend for me?

Doug

Doug, his complaint was about the coupler.  By putting the engine  on the track knowing the coupler was touching the rail (hot) he had to take out the board.  The question was why did he power the engine up knowing the coupler was touching the center rail.  If he looked at the coupler or had someone else look at it, the coupler situation may have been resolved.  If that took place, the engine would not have smoked.  Yes it is a steam engine but the smoke an operator wants to see comes out the front stack.  My comments were related to his complaint about having to pay shipping.   He had many options.  First he could have contacted the selling agent.  Have someone look at it, or return it to the seller.  Again, why put an engine on the track and power it up with the coupler touching the hot rail.  

Sorry to hear you have had bad luck.    Sorry to hear you will not be buying any more products.   That is your choice to follow.  Lets hope the big two survive.   I know a small bit about the customer service and they get it done.  Remember, these are not 100K cars, they are toys.

Walter, if you do not like my signature line,  do not read it.  I put this out as a guide for anyone looking for help.  Many people here on the forum give advice and some of it is not accurate.   I learned early in life to always listen to the guy who has been there and done that.   Now that I am retired, I can devote more time to this.  If the poster reached out for assistance, this post may not exist.  I actually had his (same) engine on my bench and could have assisted him with his problem.   I do not work for MTH or Lionel.   I have been to the schools they run and have always shared all with OGR Forum members.  Anytime I can help a member with a repair, I do so.   I have spent a good part of my life in school to learn many things.   If you do not like anything I post, you have your right to not read it.  If you want to converse  more, my email is in my profile.   

Walter, I get calls and emails every day and do my best to help people.  The key is that people need to sometimes help themselves.  His coupler no doubt got damaged in shipping.   Some members do not live near a train store and need to have trains shipped.  

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

CP Bob, many high end dealers do not have repair people working for them and have to do that.   Remember, just because a dealer sells trains, that does not say he has the ability to fix them.

Soxfan, if you observed the coupler hanging low and still put the engine on the track and powered up, you probably blew the tender board.  That is on you.  Why would you do this?  Many would not have the nerve to let people know they did something like that.  I have worked on a few of those engines recently and MTH should turn it around quickly for you.  Why would you think MTH is the bad guy asking you to pay $26.00 to send it back.  With the coupler situation you may have been able to resolve the issue at your dealer.  If he is a high end dealer, he would have sent you a new engine and a call tag for your old one.  

Jim1939, the dealer sold it.  MTH had it made.  Many things can happen to an engine after it leaves Columbia drive.   Everyone wants to dump this on MTH.  MTH did not damage the coupler and then give the engine  a hot shot.  Yes, they will fix it free.   Soxfan should have returned it to his dealer and get another locomotive.   Couplers are cheap.  Boards are not cheap.  MTH is taking this on the chin for more than Soxfan $26.00.

Hi Marty, I bought a RK Imperial Daylight and found that the shoulder screw that holds the draw bar to the bottom of the engine was missing. My engine behaved erratic as did the smoke unit.

I even brought it back to the dealer and nether one of us noticed the missing screw until we started to put it back in the box for him to repair.

He ordered another screw but it was not available from MTH for about six months. They had to order them from China, so I picked it up and took the engine home.

To make a long story short MTH sent me the screw and spring two weeks ago and it works fine now. The only problem was they never sent the plastic insulator washer for it.

No big deal though I was able to fabricate a replacement from a plastic package that small screws come in and some clear tape and it looks pretty good.

It runs fine now.     

Sometimes we see things but they just don't register as wrong. My tow bar was obviously hanging low and two people missed it that together we must I looked at ten thousand of them over the years.

GG1MAN, You looked the situation over and made the right move.  Guys like yourself are a big asset to the hobby.

I would expect that, if one can ascertain screw length and pitcj, someone must have it in US

RJR posted:

I would expect that, if one can ascertain screw length and pitcj, someone must have it in US

 

Hi RJR, I thought the same thing but if you look at the application along with the length of the shoulder, the reduced size of thread shaft coupled with the over sized flat head pan screw it all comes together to meet the needs of the design in a very unique way.

I don't think you will ever find this thing on a shelf at Home Depot. It looks more like a job for a Micro Mark hobby lath.