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Hello everyone! I just wanted to follow up in that previous thread titled "Did Lionel use the wrong whistle on the Pennsylvania J1A."  In that thread I posted that I would be contacting Lionel about the issue to see if they would be willing change the sound file of the Pennsylvania J1A and use the M1A whistle as I believe, as do many others, that the M1A whistle is closer to the real thing rather than what many suspected in that Lionel used the same whistle in the J1A that was used in the H10.  

I spoke with Katie, who is always very nice and pleasant to deal with, on Friday and she advised she would be back to me on Monday.  Katie advised me that the engineers at Lionel advised that the whistle used on the J1A is the Pennsylvania Banshee Whistle and that is the most prototypical whistle to be used on that engine.  She also insisted, on behalf of the engineers, that the whistle on J1A is not the whistle on the H10.  

Having been a customer of the Lionel Visionline Challenger I'll admit that I am certainly disappointed that Lionel will not change out the whistle as to me I fully believe the whistle used on the H10 is the same as the J1A (and not prototypical).  After reviewing numerous video's I believe the whistle on the M1A is closest to the real J1A whistle.  (I'd even take the K4 whistle!).  I have not picked up my J1A yet and I am extremely disappointed after spending nearly $1400 on a BTO engine that the whistle is not prototypical.  I would never stiff my loyal hobby shop, but I'm hoping I can swap the engine for another after I watch a review video.  In short, that was the last BTO engine I purchase.  

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A.J. posted:
Katie advised me that the engineers at Lionel advised that the whistle used on the J1A is the Pennsylvania Banshee Whistle and that is the most prototypical whistle to be used on that engine. 

Respectfully, the engineers at Lionel don't know what they're talking about.  There is plenty of information available, including audio recordings made of the real thing, that show the prototypical whistle for the J1/J1a is the 3-chime PRR "passenger" whistle.

The information on the link below directly pertains to this point.

http://www.columbusrailroads.c...=55Sights_%26_Sounds

Besides the audio recordings on the above site, quoting in part from the text:

"Banshee whistles were once common on all H, I1, L1, N, A, B, C, and CC2 class locomotives. Post war many engines had these replaced with the 3-chime "K4" type whistle."

"The wistful, haunting PRR 3-chime passenger whistle says “Pennsy” more than any other sound in railroading. Made in PRR’s own shops, the round-topped whistle sounded the notes of E-G-B, a minor triad. This whistle was standard equipment on passenger power from about 1875 through the end of steam. It was used on all modern power, including M1, J1, Q2 and T1. As engines were retired, their “K4” whistle was often used to replace the high-pitched “banshee” on older freight power."

There is really no excuse for a model manufacturer to make an error like this, at least on PRR equipment.  The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a modeling committee that is ready and eager to help provide information and support to any model train manufacturer.  I know that they regularly work with several HO companies.

Last edited by Bob

Also, I was told I was the only one who called on the issue thus far so if anyone else was like me and ordered it and are not satisfied give Lionel a call.  Maybe if more people raise the issue they will be more likely to provide change.  I would assume that in the grand scheme of things changing the sound file on an engine wouldn't be the most difficult thing to do.  

I posted this on the other whistle thread. An actual J1a whistle at the 1:11 mark:  https://youtu.be/3jdz2An_9t4

How bold of Lionel to say they know better, yet foolish when its so easy to find the correct one.

Between the variety of out of the box  issues, and now the attitude. They saved me a ton of money by convincing me to cancel my preorders.

 

On a side note. Ironically , they got it right on the B&LE version..... go figure

Go to 10:38  https://youtu.be/dW50AUk6264

765 wearing 643's whistle  https://youtu.be/EKAXPC4KlaU

Last edited by RickO
Bob posted:
A.J. posted:
Katie advised me that the engineers at Lionel advised that the whistle used on the J1A is the Pennsylvania Banshee Whistle and that is the most prototypical whistle to be used on that engine. 

Respectfully, the engineers at Lionel don't know what they're talking about.  There is plenty of information available, including audio recordings made of the real thing, that show the prototypical whistle for the J1/J1a is the 3-chime PRR "passenger" whistle.

The information on the link below directly pertains to this point.

http://www.columbusrailroads.c...=55Sights_%26_Sounds

Besides the audio recordings on the above site, quoting in part from the text:

"Banshee whistles were once common on all H, I1, L1, N, A, B, C, and CC2 class locomotives. Post war many engines had these replaced with the 3-chime "K4" type whistle."

"The wistful, haunting PRR 3-chime passenger whistle says “Pennsy” more than any other sound in railroading. Made in PRR’s own shops, the round-topped whistle sounded the notes of E-G-B, a minor triad. This whistle was standard equipment on passenger power from about 1875 through the end of steam. It was used on all modern power, including M1, J1, Q2 and T1. As engines were retired, their “K4” whistle was often used to replace the high-pitched “banshee” on older freight power."

There is really no excuse for a model manufacturer to make an error like this, at least on PRR equipment.  The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a modeling committee that is ready and eager to help provide information and support to any model train manufacturer.  I know that they regularly work with several HO companies.

Hi Bob,

For what its worth.....

Whenever I did a sound system for Right of Way I made sure the whistle matched the locomotive.  For the T1 I found a whistle collector who set up a J1 whistle for me to record.  Maybe I need to go find that tape.

Lou N

MartyE posted:

This is my PRR Legacy Texas Class from 2011.  Is this the same locomotive in question for comparison from then to now?

 

Marty,

Looks nice. Does it always start with the steam chest smoke? Does it have the same sound sequence like MTH where you hear the valves being open and then the chuff? Some here mention there is silence and then the chuffing begins? Or did I misunderstand? Thx!

I really have to agree with Norm. Smoke and features are nice and all, but the whistle for me is a make-or-break factor for steam in models today. The 587 from 2017 was an instant buy because of the awesome whistle, but I passed on the 2016 GS4's when they didn't have the same whistle as the 2008 model.

The 2011 model of the J1a sounds MUCH more appropriate than the 2019 version. 

A.J. posted:

Norm, I got the Hudson on BTO as well.  I'm done with BTO, Ill wait until I see a product review or youtube clip before I commit $1400 again.  

Agreed. No more BTO. Lionel's attention to the details (color, sounds, quality of assembly, QC, etc.) has lapsed badly. But, I will go a step further. Going forward, nothing cataloged in the future by Lionel will be purchased by me if it is to be made in mainland China. I do not wish to send any more of my money there if I can possibly help it.

Respectfully,

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

Question:  If they can change the Vision Line Challenger Sound, why can't they change the Pennsylvania J1A?

I'm thinking … still thinking ,,,  getting a headache … I give up.  I really can't think of a reason.  After all, they have four technicians and a sound guy.  

Perhaps Lionel accounting is getting all the shipping bills from the RAs that they already sent out.   … And the bills for the return shipping costs.  Now let's talk technician time cost. 

I know my accountant,  Cha Ching, would not be pleased.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I still can't believe you cannot customize anything about Legacy sounds and controls without having to resort to dealing with their service department. Think of all the money they could save in service calls if they even encoded a few whistle choices. At least with TMCC you could pop in a new sound ROM. I think Legacy is just about completely dead at this point. It has really nice motor control but it's not much better than aftermarket ERR stuff. It's just bizarre that you can't upload different sounds and control features to your new engine in this pretty much post-tech era. Their stuff is like a throwback compared to DCC. 3 rail used to have a bit of an edge with easy to set up and use command control stuff but now it's just corny.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I'm trying to be a little positive as I have one of the J3a Hudsons on order. I mean hey, it's a Hudson right? They've done them once or twice. 

One would think that the sound files from the Vision Line NYC J1e would suffice for the new J3a's. Going further back in time, the whistle in the TMCC 773's and the last J3a is really quite good. So at least the files and the where with all are there if someone is minding the store.   I confess to some nervousness, too, about the state with which those new NYC J3a's might show up.

Bob

I can't look at the MTH ones for too long before that rear driver tucked into the firebox drives me bonkers. As for the 3rd Rail, I see them from time to time for cheap money but have been avoiding them after helping a pal fix his slipped drivers. Not sure if that's common to those models but it's never happened to any of my other 3rd Rails.

I don't know, but maybe there are legal issues we are unaware of that prevents Lionel from implementing downloaded sound files.  But it could be that Lionel just doesn't want to setup and maintain the necessary hardware and software to support that functionality.

The closer it gets to delivery of the J3a engines, the more fear, uncertainty, and doubt, enters the equation for me.  

Mikado 4501 posted:

If the past is anything to indicate, the new unstreamlined J3A's will likely have the same whistle as the 2015 Empire State Express Hudsons. They are essentially the same locomotive, and I can see them having that whistle sound instead of the one they used on the Vision Line J1E.

Yup. Lionel has gotten to the point reusing sounds that it's pretty easy to predict which whistle they will use. Ive heard plenty of the same type of whistle or horn that are technically the same but I can hear a difference.  They could at least change the pitch a bit. Call it difference in pressure or wear or temperature or whatever. The J3a will definitely sound the same as the ESE and Niagara.

If only they would go back to the unique TMCC whistles. 

Last edited by Surefire

I have two of the PRR J1As that I just received that are still in their boxes. They will make their debut on the layout after York. While I agree with my fellow members that it is disappointing that the whistle is not appropriate, I can live with that. My far bigger concern is that the engines be intact and operate perfectly. I have had pretty good luck in that regard with my Legacy engines, so I am keeping my fingers crossed that my luck continues.

Pat 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I still can't believe you cannot customize anything about Legacy sounds and controls without having to resort to dealing with their service department. Think of all the money they could save in service calls if they even encoded a few whistle choices. At least with TMCC you could pop in a new sound ROM. I think Legacy is just about completely dead at this point. It has really nice motor control but it's not much better than aftermarket ERR stuff. It's just bizarre that you can't upload different sounds and control features to your new engine in this pretty much post-tech era. Their stuff is like a throwback compared to DCC. 3 rail used to have a bit of an edge with easy to set up and use command control stuff but now it's just corny.

Although 'customizing' the whistle might be the ultimate selection from a purchaser's perspective, another simpler alternative (for both potential purchasers who are not that technically oriented and Lionel) - at least for the high end locomotives - would be for Lionel to include a 'sound byte' (on their website) of the intended whistle in their description of the features so that people would be able to determine - in advance of any pre-ordering - whether or not they wanted to purchase that particular engine. I seem to recall that Lionel did this for some high end engines a few years ago (which I thought was a good idea) because like MIKADO 4501, the whistle sound is a make-or-break deal issue for me too.

Mikado 4501 posted:

If the past is anything to indicate, the new unstreamlined J3A's will likely have the same whistle as the 2015 Empire State Express Hudsons. They are essentially the same locomotive, and I can see them having that whistle sound instead of the one they used on the Vision Line J1E.

True as far as it goes. And, the 2015 Empire State Express whistle sound file is very similar (identical?) to that of the Century Club II ESE. A different tender shell, ideally, should prompt some effort at tuning to obtain a desirable final result. The point I was making is that Lionel has several good sound files appropriate for models of the various NYC Hudsons. Picking one should not be too taxing.   BTW, ending up with a sound package close to that of the Vision Line Hudson, if indeed that happens, would be a pretty happy result for us.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck
A.J. posted:

They also advised me that they checked with the engineers and that the whistle they used is the "prototypical Pennsylvania banshee whistle." 

LOL.  The problem is that the prototypical Pennsylvania banshee whistle is not prototypical for the J1a.  The prototypical J1a used the prototypical Pennsylvania 3-chime passenger whistle as also used on the K4s and M1a.

 

I agree, but there have to be more folks out there that are just not concerned about this. Everyone needs to call them Monday to get this going. I cannot believe Lionel would overlook this since all of us that continually pre order Vision and Legacy engines will become skeptical concerning future orders. I'm sure Lionel will address this issue soon, since they have always serviced us properly in the past.

Jim,

Definitely let me know how your phone call goes because I would absolutely love to switch out the whistle for the whistle that was used on their most current run of M1A Mountains.  I think that whistle is perfect.  If they tell you no one else called thats a lie because I called! lol Good luck.  

AJ 

jim911 posted:

AJ, are we the only people that care about this?

Jim,

I'd like to think not.

When I was with Right of Way I spent a lot of time in the field recording sounds so that the model matched the real thing.

I sent Mike R audio from when we restored Reading 2100 so that the model reflected the real thing; Rudy did a great job editing them for the 2100 from  a few years ago.

I think realistic audio has come to be expected.

Don't know why the sudden disinterest in getting it right.

Lou N

Several larger Lionel dealers have contacted Lionel, who tells everyone the same thing concerning the J1a whistle, "it's correct".  And yet none of them are willing to check their inventory to find out how wrong this is. Bottom line, they just want to move out their inventory and let the consumer worry about it later!

Hi, new here, but I'm sending my J1a back to the dealer, he said he would take it. I called lionel and got the same run around as all of you did. I hate that thomas whistle. Also I can hear the 3 audio cuts when you quil the whistle, kinda a click. Just poor quality that leads me to believe more quality issues will pop up on this.

 

I'm getting a pilot challanger, yea I know about its sound issue, but unless they time the smoke to look articulated, I'm not going to change the sound.

Coalguy posted:

Hi, new here, but I'm sending my J1a back to the dealer, he said he would take it. I called lionel and got the same run around as all of you did. I hate that thomas whistle. Also I can hear the 3 audio cuts when you quil the whistle, kinda a click. Just poor quality that leads me to believe more quality issues will pop up on this.

 

Welcome Coalguy,

Since you are new here you can find a conversation a few comments up between Gunrunnerjohn and myself.  A fellow named Rudy, who was with Lionel many years and an absolute sound wizard, departed Lionel about a year ago.  It is unfortunate for Lionel.

Also somewhere amongst these J1a threads you will find a real unaltered J1a whistle sound posted by me if you are inclined to listen to it.

Know that good audio software, when used with the appropriate plug-ins, would eliminate any transition click.  Its called loop tuning.  The audio transitions need to begin and end at a point in the audio file called the zero cross.

Probably more than you wanted to know.

You will find many answers and explanations here.  The knowledge base here on any topic is vast.

Lou N

 

Thanks, I may not know about audio software, but as a former sonar tech on subs, I'm a geek when it comes to sound. 

I think in today's world of trains, you need to pick and choose from each vendor. I found out MTH J1a has a drive wheel in the ash pan....

Im getting the pilot challanger to replace the J1a. I know it has the non articulated sound, but since it matches what the smoke units do, I'm ok with it, now if it had articulated chuff and I didnt see the correct pulses in the stack, it would really bug me.

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