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So I grabbed a gutted, unfinished MTH Premier S1 steamer today from the MTH auction (thank you @Cabin Fever Auctions) for what I believe to be a steal.

Anyone with the S1, would you mind sharing any photos of the interior? My plan is to install some PS1 guts (yes I know original was PS3, but I only run conventional) and finish off the ornamental stuff as I can.

My biggest question is the drive train...I assume this is a 2-motor setup. I have some experience with mounting motors in custom brackets, but would be nice to know if the motors for this guy are relatively easy to mount and exchange.

Also would be looking for tips on sourcing some of the other things that I might not be thinking of. For example, I'm guessing there is a drive shaft connecting the bogies, and there lots of stuff I can grab off of McMaster but the more I know up front the better.

I was reading about this particular loco and it appears that Pennsy was the only operator, and only one was ever built. The factory paint is obviously a jet black with gold PA graphics, but I'm not that concerned about prototypes and finishes. I'm thinking a deep gloss blue and gold maybe...Screenshot_20201024-170747_WhatsApp

Any tips or advice on this guy greatly appreciated! Even better, if anyone has anything related to this guy sitting in a parts box, I'm ready to make a deal!

Looking forward to this one...

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy
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This would have been a single Pittman motor....dogbone and coupler set up....parts are as scarce as hens teeth....I hope you have the coupling driveshafts at least....I have a lot these parts in stock, however, they are at a premium as supplies are extremely limited......if you’d like to send me some pics of it with the shell off, and we can go from there, or you can contact Midge at the parts dept. of MTH as they are still selling/supplying parts.......

Pat

Thanks, Pat!  Certainly will send photos when it comes in.  I don't have an issue fabricating small parts if things aren't available...things like drive shafts, mounting brackets, etc.  But if they are available to buy, that's typically a better option unless the price is 3x what it would cost to custom make.

Problem we’re seeing is guys are getting these engineering samples and they’re gutted like fish, no worm shafts, no driveshafts, no motor mount, no motors....etc., etc.,....fabbing the driveshafts isn’t a problem, it’s the worm gear shafts that are the issue, then there’s the issue of motors....there are practically no stock OE motors left anywheres.........let’s see what you got when you get it in your hands...

Pat

the saving grace for you Jeff, will be the fact you’re willing to keep it simple conventional....if you’d tried to kit it, and make it functional, you’d surpass the street value in the blink of an eye....you might be ok...like I said, if at least the worm shafts are there, that’s 3/4’s of the battle....then you got a good shot of making it run....I’ve seen these engineering samples in a whole bunch of different states of disarray....some having not a gear in sight, others darn near ready to run......I hope you can make her run buddy....she is a beautiful beast...

Pat

I've had one of these apart. There is a 9434 Pittman mounted in the firebox. The rear set of drivers has a worm shaft with cups for a driveshaft at either end. The front worm shaft just has a cup for a driveshaft at the rear. The setup is motor/flywheel/drive shaft/worm shaft/driveshaft/worm shaft. There are no u-joints as the drivers are not articulated (and need every bit of 072). Parts are hard to find. I'd try contacting midge and MTH to at least obtain the worm shafts and motor mount if you want it to run. The motor, flywheel, and drive shafts can be sourced from other sources (Lionel, etc.). 

I used one of these engineering samples/catalog artwork samples as a project base over the summer: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...locomotive-from-junk

Ok, got the S1 in today and tore into it.

All I'm all, I'm thrilled with what we got for the price. Original packaging, including all foam and protective inserts.

The shell and chassis appear flawless, no broken bits, no scratches, really nice.

HUGE bonus, it appears that ALL of the exterior detail parts were included in a separate bag. All the pop valves, ladders, handrails, lights, panel covers, running boards, headlamp assemblies... It's all here. This is honestly the biggest surprise because the auction ad says "no parts / motor"

Upon removing the shells from the loco and tender, the gearbox covers are both present, as well as the motor mount (big plus here!). So I can work with this. The worm gears are present on the drive axles. All wheel assembly and piston rod assemblies are complete.

Now, definitely going to need the driveline including the worm shafts and drive shafts. I may have a motor that is strong enough, otherwise will be looking to source a motor.

Tender has a 4 ohm speaker installed, but I'm going to be installing a PS1 boards that I already have, so that will get swapped out. Other excellent news is that all wiring harnesses, tethers are included. Even though they're configured for PS2, it's easy enough for me to use them to run PS1 stuff back and forth.

Even had aPS2 smoke unit with all wires and connectors. Unfortunately I can't use it, so if anyone wants to trade me a PS2 smoker for a PS1, let's talk.

Will forward this info to Midge as well, fingers crossed she can help with the drive shafts.



Edit: @Lou1985 & @harmonyards: Do the gearboxes also need a bushing / bearing at each end for the worm shaft to sit in?  The gearbox cover plates are present, but I can't find any sort of bushing that has a round hole that can fit in the slots on each side.  I'll also ask Midge.

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

Yes the worm shafts have ball bearings on each end. Usually the bearing on the end of the shaft opposite of the coupler slides on and off the shaft. The bearing on the coupler end (rear) is kept on the shaft by the coupler. When you order the worm it includes that rear bearing. The front one is a separate piece. Pat, @harmonyards, should know the size of the bearing MTH uses. I had it written down but can't locate it right now. It's around 8mm, if I remember correctly, and is flanged on one end.

If you have the rest of the wiring in that bag, including the tether connector for the locomotive, you might just need a MUX board and PS32 board to make the thing fully functional.

Last edited by Lou1985

It’s a 4mmX9mm flanged bearing...slip fit...be sure to get whatever sleeve goes on the front end of any open ended shaft.....I believe this loco uses two shafts, with a secondary dog bone between the two shafts. So the very front forward shaft will be open ended....you’ll need that sleeve to set the shaft end play. With out it, the forward shaft will rock too much between the bearing ends, and you’ll destroy the worm wheel in short order....The sacrificial lamb unfortunately, is the worm wheel, not the worm shaft.....the worm shaft is as hard as darn it, the worm wheel is a much softer alloy....

Pat

@Lou1985: Thanks for the info.  I'm actually going to move a good PS2 3V board from a Railking E9 into the tender of this loco.  I'll need to learn how to install the sound file, unfortunately I have no TIU so I might need to see if I can meet up with someone in the Cincy area has one that I could either borrow or have them do it for me.  My original plan was to use a PS1 board, but since it actually came with all the PS2 fixins that I wasn't expecting (including the smoke unit), then I figured I might as well put the PS1 in the E9 Railking loco and use all the lights and smoke with a PS2 board.

The tether and tether board are in the parts bag.  I'm assuming the Mux is the board that receives the tether that mounts in the rear of the engine?  So yes, I have that as well.

@harmonyards: I'll see if Midge can track anything down, although she didn't seem real optimistic for the worm shaft assemblies.  If you have any on hand, I'm ready to make a deal.  I can probably find a motor on the Bay or somewhere too, unless you have one good to go.

Thanks for your help, guys.  Going to get this thing going lickety split.

@Lou1985, @harmonyards:  I'm moving the discussion about the motor and parts back to here (versus hijacking the other thread about the Pittman motor replacement).

I haven't heard back from Midge regarding availability of the worms and shafts, but I did get a message from one of their techs about needing a couple of MUX boards for full PS2 capability.  I *think* those boards are in my parts bag that came with the engine, but even if they're not am I correct in thinking that they physical harness (which I do have) carries the stuff that is needed for the engine to function, the MUX boards are controlling some less important light features?  I wouldn't have a problem hard wiring the lights if I can't find Mux boards, especially if I have no control over them anyway running in conventional.

I plan on ordering a motor from Lionel during the 50% sale tomorrow, but if I can also pick up any other parts that I can cobble together that can still work, then I'd like to do so.  I can get a 30mm flywheel, but it appears that the original flywheel had the dogbone coupler integral to the flywheel.  Does Lionel offer something similar?

I can also see if there are any dogbones of the right length, but I'm doubting that.  Finally, of course, the worm assemblies with bearings. I'm thinking maybe there's a way to make these work from the Lionel part 6100:





What are the odds the dogbone is the same length and the worms are the same Pitch and pressure?

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

You’re gonna wind up having a fight on your hands trying to cobble together stuff from Lionel with stuff from MTH if you’ve never done this sort of thing before.....flywheel thickness, bore diameter, and how the coupler is installed on the flywheel will come into play ......finding an exact length dog bone that’ll work isn’t going to be easy.......you kinda have to be able to gauge what’s going to line up or not, before you just blindly buy parts that might not work......that makes the project 10 times more expensive.....

Midge is probably overwhelmed at the moment with everybody trying to do  the same thing you’re doing, plus she’s always busy with “normal parts orders” .....she’s always gotten back to me, so you may have to just be a little patient......

as I mentioned before, after Midge tells you what she doesn’t have, you may contact me, and we can go from there....don’t get the cart ahead of the horse, or you’ll learn the term X-pensive really quick buying a bunch of parts that won’t work....just attempting to save you some grief......

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards

Looking at the parts breakdown for the Lionel version: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...c6-94c2-2ca8b3baee31

It looks like the worms have the correct pitch. The bearings are wrong but can be changed. One word of caution: you'll want someone who knows how to set up the worms to verify they are correct/make any changes if necessary, otherwise you run the risk of stripping out the worm wheels on the axles. You can probably order the flywheel, motor, and dog bones from that Lionel S1 and be ok. You'll just need to add tach tape to the Lionel flywheel which is no big deal.

Jeff, I just read your questions from the other thread about Pittman motors, I’ll answer your question on here, so like you mentioned, we don’t hijack that man’s thread.....

if you plan on using the PS electronics, I’d think ( and somebody else can verify) you’d best stick with a 12 volt motor ....I’m not sure how the PS electronics will react to a 15.1 or even a 19.1V Pittman....you may or may not run into issues,....I can’t answer that question, as I’ve always used the appropriate voltage motor given the electronics package I’m using on hand....

the question of 12 volt or 15.1 is best left answered by somebody that’s attempted that swap, or knows it won’t affect the way the locomotive behaves....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Midge is probably overwhelmed at the moment with everybody trying to do  the same thing you’re doing, plus she’s always busy with “normal parts orders” .....she’s always gotten back to me, so you may have to just be a little patient......



Don't get me wrong, Pat.  I'm not complaining.  I'm actually surprised she's been able to communicate with me at all.  I only mentioned the Lionel route because if there any any useful parts I can pick up for 50% off, I'd like to do it.   And that sale only lasts until Saturday I think.  So there's a timing element involved.

I won't be buying from Pittman, I'll be buying a Lionel motor to use.

@Lou1985:  I'll be OK with swapping the bearings on the worm shaft and tinkering with the worm engagement.  But if the Lionel one is not a slam-dunk (like the motor will be) then I'm ok waiting to see what Midge can dig up.

Thanks for all the guidance, guys.

Went ahead and picked up two Pittmans from the Lionel sale (a 12V 9234 and a 15V 9434) plus a flywheel that is used on the Lionel S1 that has a dogbone coupler built in.  Basically items 24,27,28,29,30 and 37 in the Lionel parts list.

Also went ahead and bought the shafts and dog bones...for half off they weren't really that much.  If Midge can't find the MTH versions, at least I have a starting point if I can't dig any up on the used market or from a forum member.  And I can always find use for whichever motor I end up not using.  Can't beat 50% off and 10 dollar flat shipping!

I can’t tell from the Lionel exploded view you posted up, ....does the Lionel worm shaft have flanged bearings?....some Lionel engines do not use a step flanged bearing. All big MTH Premier steam uses the 4X9mm step flanged bearing....even still, some Lionel use a 4X8mm non flanged bearing, and the bearing stops are cast in as part of the gear tower....do not use a non-flanged bearing on a MTH gear tower....you will not like the resulting carnage....😉

Pat

It doesn't appear there are any pre-mounted bearings on the shafts. I don't even know if the shafts are the right length (and likely they're not) but I've got enough time and patience to mount my own bearings and figure it all out, even if it means some light machining work.

Just thought it was worth a shot for 10 bucks all in if MTH doesn't come through.

It doesn't appear there are any pre-mounted bearings on the shafts. I don't even know if the shafts are the right length (and likely they're not) but I've got enough time and patience to mount my own bearings and figure it all out, even if it means some light machining work.

Just thought it was worth a shot for 10 bucks all in if MTH doesn't come through.

There are bearings mounted on the shaft, especially the most rearward shaft, the one with double couplings.....IF the Lionel worm shafts have a non-flanged bearing on them, you’ll need to carefully pull the couplers from the shaft, and install flanged bearings F684ZZ 4X9mm ( that’s not a MTH part no.) .....you’ll need to set the worm shaft endplay, and be wary of gear depth. Also be sure to set worm shaft orientation over the worm wheel....too far left or right from center, and you’ll eat up the worm wheel’s teeth, and then you’ll be pulling wheels....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

There are bearings mounted on the shaft, especially the most rearward shaft, the one with double couplings.....IF the Lionel worm shafts have a non-flanged bearing on them, you’ll need to carefully pull the couplers from the shaft, and install flanged bearings F684ZZ 4X9mm ( that’s not a MTH part no.) .....you’ll need to set the worm shaft endplay, and be wary of gear depth. Also be sure to set worm shaft orientation over the worm wheel....too far left or right from center, and you’ll eat up the worm wheel’s teeth, and then you’ll be pulling wheels....

Pat

That's correct. The Lionel worm shafts will come with bearings but they are the wrong ones. They can be swamped out. The worm shaft gears should have the correct pitch but they should be checked for depth are wear pattern. Something like Prussian blue (you know this stuff if you've ever set up gears in an automotive situation) would be helpful. Whatever you do DO NOT run the locomotive powered by a motor until you are 100% certain you have the worm shafts set up correctly.

Got my parts for the S1 from the Lionel half off sale today, so here's what I've got:

  • Pittman DL0404 12V motor
  • Flywheel with dogbone coupling pre-installed
  • Short Dogbone axle
  • Worm shaft with two pre-installed 9x4mm flanged bearings and coupler both ends.
  • Long Dogbone Axle
  • Worm shaft with coupler on rear and two non-flanged 9x4mm bearings

My MTH S1 loco chassis is over at my parent's house, so I can't check all the dimensions and alignment just yet.  However, going by above comments from @Lou1985 and @harmonyards:

  • I can likely adjust the motor position on the mount and the position of the flywheel /coupler to make sure the first dogbone aligns in the correct position (in direction of travel) with respect to the first worm mount
  • I should be able to use the pre-installed bearings on Worm #1 (at the rear, closest to motor) because they re the correct 9x4 flanged bearings.  I may have to adjust them along the shaft to be positioned over the first worm gear properly, but the 9x4 flanged bearings are a good thing, right?
  • The second dog bone may or may not be able to work, would depend on if the length from the first to second worms on the Lionel S1 are close (within 1/8" or so based on the jaw coupling that meets the dog bone), but that's easy enough to make if I need to.  I could probably fashion one myself here if I had to if I can't get the length right
  • The second worm will likely need to have the bearings switched out from plain ball bearings to flanged bearings like the first worm, and I'll have to devise some sort of thin spacer to set them on the shaft longitudinally.  The long worm has built-in stop on the front end of the shaft.

I feel like I'm in a really good place ATM, and I can probably use these parts.  Midge has (so far) had no luck replying to me about the worms from MTH, so I feel like I'm going to give it a try.

Now I need to see if someone can upload the correct PS2 sound file for my spare 3V ps2 card, since I don't have a TIU or remote from MTH (I'm all conventional).  And according to DON at MTH, I will want the two MUX boards that transmit some stuff for the PS2 lighting from the tender to the loco (where the tether doesn't have enough pinouts).  And Don confirmed that MTH no longer carries them or has any in stock.  So...anyone have any spare MUX boards (Xmit and Rec) laying around they'd be willing to sell?  Otherwise I may hard wire them through a secondary tether.

I've attached a photo of everything I've got for the loco, so you guys can point out what may or may not still be missing.  I think I have a pretty good idea on the detail parts where everything goes, although I feel like I might have some duplicates.  In addition to the photos below, I've also got a BCR for the 3V board (not shown).

Thanks again!

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

You won’t know how things are going to land until you attempt to fit things.....as you already know, those non-flanged bearings will never work....that’s got to be the first order of business, then, attempt to land your worm gears, get all of that set up, and working properly.......then worry about dog bones, I question that flywheel, it’s a very tight fit in a MTH with the stock 30mm as Lou I believe pointed out to you earlier...I’d be careful altering motor mount location if the flywheel doesn’t clear things, you may wind up with body fitment issues, and that’ll be like trying to cure a mosquito bite with a shotgun...think things through, and you’ll be ok.....biggest issue I see is making sure you’re on the axial centerline of the worm shaft/worm wheel when you set your shafts, so the worm shaft don’t eat your worm wheels for breakfast.....the shafts are as hard as darn it, the worm wheels are much softer, and they’ll give no warnings they’re be eaten alive...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Jeff, I wasn’t insinuating you were complaining buddy, ....I just know how Ms.Midge operates....that lady is phenomenal!....how she gets it all done is mind boggling.....she’s a one person band!,..trust me, if you like tinkering with this cr......you’ll miss her too!..

Pat

I'm a little jealous here. Midge told me that the engine I got, didn't have any parts list so she couldn't help me. I was going to try ordering parts blindly and hoping I could make something work.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4-engineering-sample

I wasn't very lucky here I guess?

Good luck and carry on!

Last edited by Engineer-Joe

I'm a little jealous here. Midge told me that the engine I got, didn't have any parts list so she couldn't help me. I was going to try ordering parts blindly and hoping I could make something work.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4-engineering-sample

I wasn't very lucky here I guess?

Good luck and carry on!

GN 4-8-4 right? The worm shaft for a SP GS 4-8-4 should fit that locomotive. The worm shafts between my SP GS, ATSF, and UP FEF Northerns are the same. Best part is the SP GS worm shaft is still available from MTH.

Got my parts for the S1 from the Lionel half off sale today, so here's what I've got:

  • Pittman DL0404 12V motor
  • Flywheel with dogbone coupling pre-installed
  • Short Dogbone axle
  • Worm shaft with two pre-installed 9x4mm flanged bearings and coupler both ends.
  • Long Dogbone Axle
  • Worm shaft with coupler on rear and two non-flanged 9x4mm bearings

My MTH S1 loco chassis is over at my parent's house, so I can't check all the dimensions and alignment just yet.  However, going by above comments from @Lou1985 and @harmonyards:

  • I can likely adjust the motor position on the mount and the position of the flywheel /coupler to make sure the first dogbone aligns in the correct position (in direction of travel) with respect to the first worm mount
  • I should be able to use the pre-installed bearings on Worm #1 (at the rear, closest to motor) because they re the correct 9x4 flanged bearings.  I may have to adjust them along the shaft to be positioned over the first worm gear properly, but the 9x4 flanged bearings are a good thing, right?
  • The second dog bone may or may not be able to work, would depend on if the length from the first to second worms on the Lionel S1 are close (within 1/8" or so based on the jaw coupling that meets the dog bone), but that's easy enough to make if I need to.  I could probably fashion one myself here if I had to if I can't get the length right
  • The second worm will likely need to have the bearings switched out from plain ball bearings to flanged bearings like the first worm, and I'll have to devise some sort of thin spacer to set them on the shaft longitudinally.  The long worm has built-in stop on the front end of the shaft.

I feel like I'm in a really good place ATM, and I can probably use these parts.  Midge has (so far) had no luck replying to me about the worms from MTH, so I feel like I'm going to give it a try.

Now I need to see if someone can upload the correct PS2 sound file for my spare 3V ps2 card, since I don't have a TIU or remote from MTH (I'm all conventional).  And according to DON at MTH, I will want the two MUX boards that transmit some stuff for the PS2 lighting from the tender to the loco (where the tether doesn't have enough pinouts).  And Don confirmed that MTH no longer carries them or has any in stock.  So...anyone have any spare MUX boards (Xmit and Rec) laying around they'd be willing to sell?  Otherwise I may hard wire them through a secondary tether.

I've attached a photo of everything I've got for the loco, so you guys can point out what may or may not still be missing.  I think I have a pretty good idea on the detail parts where everything goes, although I feel like I might have some duplicates.  In addition to the photos below, I've also got a BCR for the 3V board (not shown).

Thanks again!

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As Pat noted you really want someone who knows what they are doing to set up those worm shafts, since this is cobbling stuff together that wasn’t quite made to fit together. Those chassis worm wheels are made of unobtainium.

@Lou1985 posted:

GN 4-8-4 right? The worm shaft for a SP GS 4-8-4 should fit that locomotive. The worm shafts between my SP GS, ATSF, and UP FEF Northerns are the same. Best part is the SP GS worm shaft is still available from MTH.

that's the exact one I was going to try! Thanks. It takes away the guess work on my end.

I bought another engine ( 3 rail)  that was supposed to be a working sample to swap out the parts for. Trouble is that it's the old 5 volt set-up, no board inside, and I overpaid for it.

At this rate, I could order a brand new working PS3 version and save some grief.

Last edited by Engineer-Joe

that's the exact one I was going to try! Thanks. It takes away the guess work on my end.

I bought another engine ( 3 rail)  that was supposed to be a working sample to swap out the parts for. Trouble is that it's the old 5 volt set-up, no board inside, and I overpaid for it.

At this rate, I could order a brand new working PS3 version and save some grief.

That Pittman I sent you Joe, for that Williams Challenger will be a shoe in for that MTH engine....it’ll work fine in that locomotive.....that Williams Challenger beat all of us .....Lou is correct, those GS shafts will fit just about all the big Premier, sans the articulated split frames....shaft length coming out of the gear box is the only factor, and making a custom dog bone with some brass tubing is a no brainer ...whole lot easier than attempting to shorten or lengthen the worm shaft....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

That Pittman I sent you Joe, for that Williams Challenger will be a shoe in for that MTH engine....it’ll work fine in that locomotive.....that Williams Challenger beat all of us .....Lou is correct, those GS shafts will fit just about all the big Premier, sans the articulated split frames....shaft length coming out of the gear box is the only factor, and making a custom dog bone with some brass tubing is a no brainer ...whole lot easier than attempting to shorten or lengthen the worm shaft....

Pat

Pat, thanks again. I have a page open with a parts list order for MTH. They don't show the motor, bracket, or flywheel available for ordering!

So I may have to get inventive with the flywheel?

They do show a modern motor number when you look up motor number

old number BE-0000030 = new # MA?

Pat, thanks again. I have a page open with a parts list order for MTH. They don't show the motor, bracket, or flywheel available for ordering!

So I may have to get inventive with the flywheel?

They do show a modern motor number when you look up motor number

old number BE-0000030 = new # MA?

Joe, MTH & Lionel both stopped using Pittman when Pittman priced themselves right out of the model railroad industry....The new motors are Chinese knock offs, no harm, no foul, but that 9433 I sent you will fit just fine in that MTH loco ......the Pittman I sent you is their standard 4mm shaft, same as Lionel and MTH uses.....to be sure there’d be a Lionel flywheel that you could use that would come close ...I know MTH uses 27 or 30mm flywheels, but I think John or maybe it was you that knows how to do the math for striping an oddball sized flywheel.....don’t hold me to the stripe thing....

Pat

Yeap Pat. I have figured out many upgrade flywheel stripes over the years. A couple dozen?

I just use a starting guess, then rough math % of error to get closer, and then fine tune it. Not the best, but it works.

The motor you sent should work. SO I have to get a flywheel on the end to add the stripe tape to.

I actually did not think to use a Lionel one. So I will look into that.

@harmonyards posted:

You won’t know how things are going to land until you attempt to fit things.....as you already know, those non-flanged bearings will never work....that’s got to be the first order of business, then, attempt to land your worm gears, get all of that set up, and working properly.......then worry about dog bones, I question that flywheel, it’s a very tight fit in a MTH with the stock 30mm as Lou I believe pointed out to you earlier...I’d be careful altering motor mount location if the flywheel doesn’t clear things, you may wind up with body fitment issues, and that’ll be like trying to cure a mosquito bite with a shotgun...think things through, and you’ll be ok.....biggest issue I see is making sure you’re on the axial centerline of the worm shaft/worm wheel when you set your shafts, so the worm shaft don’t eat your worm wheels for breakfast.....the shafts are as hard as darn it, the worm wheels are much softer, and they’ll give no warnings they’re be eaten alive...

Pat

As you guys suspected, the 30mm flywheel was a tad too wide and the forward edge was interfering with the rear drive wheel flanges.

I was able to machine off that corner and now the flywheel clears the drive wheels by half a millimeter in the worst case position of the drive wheels being bottomed out as close to the inside of the chassis as possible.

Better news is that the short dog bone and both worm shafts will be able to work with very few changes. I've got two more flags bearings and some small 8mm shaft collars to install as hard stops behind the bearings. The shafts themselves are just fine length-wise, but the couplers need to be a bit further apart than nominal on the long shaft for the coupler bodies clear the machined housings.

The long dog bone is too long. A second short one would fit perfect, so I'm going to order that from Lionel. Or I might just cobble one together.

Well on my way to mechanically tying this up. Next I guess I have to find those MUX boards.

Initial rough lineup:

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After machining flywheel and seating rear worm shaft. Still need to get a collar, but this will be a good fit.

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Not bad for a bunch of parts bought at half price from a competing manufacturer!

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Alright, I've got the MTH worms and I'm almost done mechanically. Had to buy another 4mm spacer and a couple shims to properly set the forward worm, should have those in a couple days. Rear worm fits like a glove.

Also needed to get a second 15/32 dog bone from Lionel since MTH is out of stock. But it's looking good from that end.

So now moving to thinking about electrical. Thanks to a forum member, I've got a set of MUX boards. It was easy enough to find where the MUX mounts in the tender, there was already a bracket installed waiting for it. And I can see the mount locations in the boiler for the mux and tether boards. Piece of cake. But something about the tender is bugging me. I don't understand what the second 10-pin tether socket connects to. I feel like maybe I'm missing a cable that is supposed to connect that socket to the MUX board?

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Also, the smoke unit that was included, although it has the correct funnel, seems like the mounting legs are the "short" instead of "long" legs that I need. Fortunately, I have a spare PS2 smoker, but I'm not sure it's compatible. Can this one be used with the 3V and MUX configuration? (Proposed substitute on right, engine shipped with one on left). I'm also thinking it's possible that the short leg unit is correct, but I'm missing a mount bracket that raises the unit up. Because it doesn't look like the mount screws are accessible from below, and the holes are tapped in the chassis leading me to think I should be looking to make a bracket.

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Then all I gotta do is figure out how to rig up the encoder to the motor mount since I'm not using the original motor and encoder mount ring. I'm thinking of just some epoxy and burying the back of the encoder PCB into the adhesive and letting it set up with a 1mm spacer between it and the flywheel.

Thanks for all the help guys!

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

@Lou1985: See photo attached. The tender harness is a typical 10 pin, and I'm still really stumped on that secondary tender connector inside the tender. To be fair, this board was not original with the S1, it is stolen from a RK diesel.  So maybe I'm supposed to have a separate 10pin-10pin Female-female tender harness that goes from the loco connector, through the tender to the vertical connector, then somehow that feeds the board? The tender cable / harness you see here WAS already pre-wired to that connector, so It gets used somehow.

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I've played around quite a bit with the boards and wiring and I've got some more things figured out, but that odd 10 pin connector mounted vertically in the tender is still confusing me.

I have found the connector that attaches the PS2 board to the MUX board in the tender, and I can sort of trace what wire do what based on the pinouts of the PS2 board.  There's a purple wire that runs through the tender harness to the loco and I'm thinking it has something to do with MUX board power or something, since it doesn't seem to be right for the "Normal" PS2 outputs.

On the engine side, I figure out that there are too may lights to be connected just to the RX MUX connector, and I realized I needed to install a secondary light distribution board (I had one sitting around).  So I just need to figure out which wires I still need to add to the empty MUX pinouts and run them to the aux board, then I should have enough connectors for all my lights.

I also think that since this particular PS2 board was stolen from a RK diesel, there are several pinouts that I could / should connect from the PS2 to the tender MUX in order to make sure I can take advantage of all lights in the engine. (photo is my own aux board I had from another project, so colors and IDs don't really apply.  I've got 4 wires I can use already (just need to plug them into the correct MUX pinouts) and one more location I can solder another wire to for 5 total jacks available.

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For the lights, I can see (pretty sure these are right)

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  1. Yellow connector with B&W wires : Marker lights in front of number boards (Grain of Wheat red LEDs)
  2. Blue connector with 2 black wires: Headlight
  3. Black connector with 4 black wires: Number board lights (mounted to the same bracket as the headlight, this was easy)
  4. Red connector with Purple & Brown wires: Smoke motor
  5. White / Olive Green Connector with Green & Gray wires : Smoke Heat element
  6. Black connector with Orange and Purple wires: Connects to Firebox and cab lights
  7. (Not shown in photos) Olive green connecter with black wires is another clear white LED with about a 10cm harness that I can't figure out where it goes. It's the same LED as the headlight.  Can't find any holes in the loco shell that make sense for it.  Is there some sort of beacon light or flasher?  Or does it somehow go in the tender as a backup light or something?

I figure any of the connectors that don't have a mate mounted directly to the MUX RX board, then I can use the auxiliary light board.  I just need to figure out where to add the pinouts to the empty MUX slots and then plug the correct connectors to the aux board.

There's a couple additional Overall photos attached, as well as this photo of the engine tether connector:

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If anyone on this board has any photos of the complete S1 guts fully installed, it would be a huge help.  But I know that's asking a lot.

Once I figure out all of the electrical connections, I'm going to set it all aside and paint the shells.

Thanks for everyone's help so far!

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

The tender to locomotive tether doesn't plug into that 10 pin connector in the tender? Next time I have one of my factory PS2 3V locomotives on the bench I'll pull the tender shell off and snap a picture. One of the techs might have a wiring diagram they can send you.

PS2 3V boards are the same between diesel and steam. Same connectors and everything. So that board being out of a diesel has no effect.

Ok, after @Lou1985 and @gunrunnerjohn's replies, now I'm even more confused.

The tether that I have has a single 10 pin female connector that we're all used to seeing, and it appears to have all the same wires coming out on the tender side as the tether connector at the loco: 3 encoder wires blue gray orange; 2 power wires red black; 2 motor leads yellow and white; 2 smoke leads blue and brown; 1 mystery purple wire that comes from the MUX. The tether appears to match the loco pinouts exactly.

The wires come out of the tether and are configured with the standard Molex inline connectors and they plug right into the PS2 board. So I'm pretty convinced that the tether you see in my photos plugs to the loco and to the PS2 board, not to the odd port in the tender.

There would be no sense in plugging that tether connector into the 10 pin connector on the tender, it would just run in circles (and leave me without connection to the loco). But even if I got a different tether that had female 10 pin connector on both ends, I would then be missing the Molex connections at the PS2 board.

It really appears that the 10 pin connector mounted in the tender is some sort of way to connect an auxiliary tender?

A photo would really be helpful if anyone has a way to share one.

Thanks!

Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

Sorry, I didn't look at the pictures all that closely, I was reacting to the text and misinterpreted what you were describing.  The connector circled below goes to the switches and volume control on a small PCB in the tender shell.  There's a harness that comes down and connects to this connector so you can separate the shell from the tender frame.

If you're missing that PCB and harness, you'll have to trace it out and wire something up for the switches and pot.

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Ok that makes more sense. I'm probably going to see if MTH had any of those boards in stock or I'll see if anyone here has one for sale before I try to cobble something together.

Does that PCB only act as a distribution board, or is there any voltage regulator or logic in it? If it's just a bunch of connectors and traces, then I should be able to rig something up way easier.

Still need to figure out how/where to add wires to the loco MUX board to control my additional lights.

By the way... What the heck does MUX stand for?

It's just a connection board, all the logic is down below.  I've never seen so much as a resistor on any of them.  Look under the hatch on the tender shell and see what switches (or holes for switches) are there.  The only S1 I find with PS/2 on the MTH site is the 2003 model which apparently wouldn't have 3/2 rail capability, so I'd only expect to find a smoke switch and a volume control.  Not sure why they have ten pins, so maybe this was a prototype that never made it to market.

@gunrunnerjohn: the tender shell  appears to have locations for two switches and a volume pot.

I'm in the process of trying to map everything out, but thought I'd share the attached photo.

Screenshot_20201129-220251_Photo Editor

I'm thinking red is volume pot. Green is smoke switch (says so on top of the shell with cast-in lettering saying "smoke unit on/offc)

Orange=??

Orange has cast-in standoffs so the switch that fits there would be deeper / larger.

The tender appears to have two holes in the back for backup lights. Maybe something to do with that?

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John, this was one of the engineering samples from the MTH auction.  It came incomplete, but with most of the parts needed minus the board and motor / drivetrain (which I've since procured).  So that's why there's no cover over the switch ports yet (although I do have them).

Yes the charge port makes sense to me, should have thought of that.  I've got a BCR for it, so I will just leave that hole alone.  I think I've figured out most of the pins on the internal tender connection that we've been talking about.  I'll share a photo / diagram of what I think is going on later.

Jeff

@Lou1985 posted:

Do you have the harness with the switches and charge port that mounts in the tender shell?

No, I don't.  But I do have a few random switches and vol pots laying around that I can use.  I'm not going to need the charge port since I've got a BCR installed.

Although just having that harness would be helpful to understand what the other pins went to.  I'm 79.2% sure it's for rear backup or marker lights based on what I'm seeing here.  But not 100% just yet

OK,

I think I've mapped everything out best as I can tell.  There's a few lingering mysteries, mostly because I don't understand how a MUX works.

I've attached a jpg of my wiring schematic as I have it now.  I named the pinouts as they are connected, unless I wasn't sure then I used pinout names that @gunrunnerjohn used in his diesel PS2 pinout diagram he posted a while ago.  I also included a couple of notes.

Here's what I am thinking / questions I have now:

  • The version of the S1 that I have (was an engineering sample) does NOT have a backup lamp.  The only location for any sort of lights in the tender that I can find is a pair of red grain-of-wheat LEDs that go in as markers in the rear corners of the tender.  With that being the case, I'm wondering if I need to connect those lights to either pin 6 or 7 on the mystery auxiliary tender connector:
  • The 8-pin connector on the PS2 board has pins 1 and 3 jumpered, with pin 1 going to the AUX connector in the tender. But pin 5 (a gray wire) also goes to the AUX.  I am assuming that one of these two should drive the rear markers instead of the green wire that would have gone to the backup light?
  • Why are the orange pins 1 and 3 jumpered like that?
  • I don't understand the purple wire going from the MUX in the tender to the tether connector.  It doesn't seem like it's Positive 6 volts like the other purple wires.
  • There's also the doubled up gray wires on pin 4 of the tender MUX that should be +5volts but I have no idea where that power comes from. It doesn't appear to connect to any source that can generate 5 volts, unless its done up in the front MUX board and that's what passes through the tender?  Then I don't understand the smoke motor circuit and how it is used on the main PS2 board.
  • After looking over the entire loco shell, I don't think I actually need the auxiliary power distribution board that I thought I did.  The only output that I can't find a home for is the front marker lights.  There's a pair of them that are wired to a connector in parallel, but no place to plug them in.  Is it possible that these can be one of the empty pinouts on the MUX boiler board? And if so, what pin of the transmit MUX corresponds to the empty pins of the receive MUX? It's not like I can just test continuity...
  • There's a bunch of internal traces that connect the two 10-pin tether connectors on a PCB at the tender tether mount in the loco cab.  Although I can't be 100% certain that these are the correct interconnects between pins, this seems like a logical arrangement based on the connections forward to the boiler MUX and smoke units. If anyone has a better diagram of this PCB with the traces, would like to see it:

I *think* I'm pretty close, but would be really nice if @Lou1985, @GGG, @gunrunnerjohn or anyone else who is smarter than me would check it over before I apply any power and risk blowing up my fancy board.

Also, this was my first crack at using AutoCAD's electrical schematic tools.  It's not the Mona Lisa, but I think it's clear enough if you zoom in on the attached overall jpg to see the details. Open or save the overall image from the attachments bar.   I tried to keep the colors of the wires correct per what I actually have on hand.

Edit: Seems like the image uploader compresses the JPG to the point that you can't read any text.  I also attached a PDF if anyone wants to download and look at a clearer version.

Thanks again guys (and gals?).

Jeff

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Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

UPDATE:

Got the drivetrain all installed and she's super snug. Everything aligns well (using the MTH provided worms and some purchases spacers and shims) and the motor and both worm gears turn smoothly at 5 volts.

I greased 'er up (including the dogbone couplings) and let 'er run both directions for a while.

There's noticeable lateral play in the forward drive axle and it tends to walk left and right when it's not loaded under the weight of the loco.  The plethora of linkages seems to play into that.  You can see in the attached video.  Once there is any radial load applied to the bottom of the wheel it goes away.



Also, the front left linkage assembly was "ticking" each rotation.  Found out that the furthest outside linkage, which was a straight bar, was not clearing the fastener that held the linkage to the crank mounted to the drive axle.  I guess it was a prototype issue (not prototype as in real life...prototype as in engineering sample of this toy).  I also notices that the other 3 comparable linkages were all slightly bowed outward and just barely cleared the screw head.  So I just bowed the last one a tiny bit as well.

So now I really just need to finalize the electronics.  I posted my best shot at a full schematic via a PDF in a previous post.  There are a couple specific questions that I would like to get some feedback on before powering up the PS2 card, just don't want to ruin it.

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Jeff, I’m not convinced you’re out of the woods mechanically just yet,....I could be wrong but looking at that video,  that one wheel set looks mighty sketchy,....that’s the chances we’re all taking with these engineering samples, is all the sorting out that needs to be done before we wind up with a functioning model.....what I do on a circumstance like this, is either wire in a simple cheap bridge rectifier from the pick up rollers and run it real world on the layout, or just wire it up straight DC and temporarily wire a loop of track and test it with a straight DC transformer....and having a way to monitor amp draws is helpful.....testing in an environment like that is far less expensive than buying boards after boards.....I’d run it somehow on a loop of track somehow, someway shell on, and look for deficiencies that way,....try it with out the shell, and with,.....best to sort out known mechanical issues now, rather than an issue wiping out a board...also, no need to grease dog bone coupler cups,...that’s a nylon dog bone, that grease will just sling everywhere making a mess....

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards

I agree that the lateral play is sketchy.  When I tweaked the linkage it improved quite a bit, although it runs much less janky in reverse so maybe there is a slight problem with the forward worm somehow.

I was able to run it back and forth over a couple feet of straight track over an over (using an external 5V wall wart and some clips) and it seems to run smoothly over straight track.  But I might do what you said and just throw a rectifier on there and give it some AC from track voltage to be able to try different speeds.  However, I don't have access to 072 loops anywhere...even the layout we're doing at Dad's is 063 max.  I bought it more as a project than a runner, although we do plan to run it back and forth over the approximately 22 feet of straight track we will have in our yard just for kicks.

I'll measure amps with my fluke, but I'll have to do it at my dad's place to be able to run the loco under its own load long enough for me to get a reading. 

Also, noted on the dogbones, although I was reading a different thread where someone was complaining about the nylon dogbones getting eaten up and everyone was telling him they should have some grease on them.  Anyway, the mess was already made and any grease left is thin enough to not bother me.

Thanks for the input!

Dad is considering listing it for sale if we get it all working, and maybe using the proceeds to fund another Premier steam project that can run on our layout!  It's funny, because I posted in my other thread (layout build) that we would never own an engine large enough to require 072 curves...yet here we are only 6 months after I wrote that!

Last edited by Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy

Jeff, I think I remember that thread where somebody said plop grease in the cups,...that’s a band-aid solution at best....and I’m pretty sure I mentioned that on there..... best to smoke a .59 cent rectifier than a 200-300 dollar set of boards I don’t like magic smoke,......the only thing magic smoke knows is the word X-pensive...😁

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards

So, back on electronics...turns out there IS a rear backup light, it's just not integrated into the tender.  So that solves one more little mystery.  Problem is, I do not have in my parts bag the stanchion that the light installs into (you can see it installed right next to the PRR decal on the photo attached).  Can anyone recommend a source for something similar (not going to hold out hope that I can find one specifically for this...maybe I'll check the Lionel version parts list):

Also, it appears that the rear lights have the LED installed facing backwards, and just a passive red lens on the outsides.  Solves another mystery for me.

Getting closer.



Also...dad wants a B&O gray / Blue / gold scheme.  Yes, I know B&O never ran an S-1.  Dad doesn't care.  And it's his money.  I'm going to need a source for just basic white / gold pinstripe decals of various width. 

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Update:

So I'm pretty sure I've got the electronics figured out.  I only had one small mistake in the schematic I posted previously, which was that the interior connection n the engine tether board was not continuous between pin 5 on the tender side and pin 5 on the engine side.  That was all I could find after spending a couple hours ringing out the connections to be sure I had things plugged in where they needed to be.

So, I carefully powered up (with TVS installed) using my KW, and...Success!  Headlight, cab lights came on, engine functioned in conventional mode just fine!

I need to figure out which MUX output controls the front number boards and add a wire / connector for those.  And I still need a rear backup light (posted in the WTB section).  But I'm starting to feel like I've got this licked!

So, next question regarding paint:

The shell is not painted and as of right now does not have any of the detail pieces installed / applied.  IF the shells are to be painted, now is the time to do it (prior to putting the whistles / engineer / firebox / lights) on the loco.  But I believe we're likely going to sell the engine.  If we sell it, would it be better to sell unpainted and with all detail pieces left off (so new owner can paint more conveniently) or should I put it all together unpainted so it leeks better in photos for selling?

Or  I might end up keeping it and doing the blue livery, even though we can't run it...



What to do...

Update: I have a working loco!

I posted some final info in my Electronics thread, but I'll take some more photos and videos and post them here once I get the shell and decorations finished.

Here's the thread with the finished electrical system:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/153463017389153551

I know it's somewhat common for lots of y'all to do these sorts of things. But I'm totally stoked that I learned how to bring a mechanically and electrically gutted locomotive to life! I now have a truly unique piece of MTH history.

Still need to find someone local who has a programming track so I can load the correct sound file. Or is there a way to load it without a TIU by plugging directly into something?

Thanks for all the help!

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