Pictures of the First?? 3 Rail Scale engine

I love that engine!

Classic Lionel Hudson • Looks great

Cheers from Michigan

great pics great loco. has to be the first 3 rail scale loco in my book. still looks super in my book! 

Me, too - it definitely was ground- breaking for the scale modelers, but 3-rail pre-dates this fine model, and a lot of scale models ran on 3- rail track, both inside and outside third.  I had a 1929 Scale Craft K4 that got 2-railed for the first time in the 1990s.

 

Many, many Lionel 700s were two-railed.  I have personally done a 763, a 701, and all the freight cars.

Nice photos, Bill.

 

One of our former members, the late Jack Whitmeyer, brought one down to the club. The engine ran just like it was new in the 1937 box. It looked like the wheels were about Code 172 and worked very well on Gargraves track. From what he told me, they were pretty easy to set up for outside third rail (the "2-rail" track configuration of the time).

 

From what I've read about the Lionel 700E, it was expensive for the day, but because it was mass produced (also available as an unassembled 700K kit) it was far less expensive than the limited production scale model locomotives of the day.

Yes, but the water scoop is hanging down the wrong way. The engineer will have to be backing up to get any water in the tender. 

 

butch

Thanks, guys.

 

Anybody know how accurate the 700E valve gear and drive rods are and how they compare with modern 3RS models?

 

Yes, Matt.  They were relatively expensive.  Lots of "normal"  fathers put them under the christmas tree -- as a serious gift meant to last a lifetime. 

But it picks up electricity on the fly pretty good.

 

Rusty

Not to mention, if the crew tries scooping water while backing up, they will all get electrocuted.

"Pictures of my Pre-war Lionel full scale 700E NYC Hudson engine.  Is it the first mass produced 3 Rail Scale engine? Scale dimensions and lotsa detail. Scale couplers.  Runs on 3 rail track.  

 What do you think?  Is it 3RS and if so is it the first 3RS engine?  If yes then I suggest that Joshua Lionel Cowen was the very first 3 rail O scale guy."

 

   He definitely was one of the first if not the first. I had some very nice vintage Lionel scale 3 rail freight trucks and freight cars years ago when I was running O scale. ......DaveB

The third rail tender pick up on the original 700E is not found on my 1990 Lionel remake, although the big pick up rollers on the engine are very much in evidence. Dick

Without a doubt the 700E is the iconic three rail scale locomotive.  The 1937-1942 originals will always be desirable as collectors items.  It took a few decades for other scale Hudson models to match it for its combination of scale detail and dependable out of the box running qualities.  Lionel didn't produce as highly detailed a scale Hudson until 1990 and it took until 1994 for the MTH Challenger to truly exceed the 700E as the pinnacle of 3 rail scale model railroad motive power.

 

As important as the 700E remains I'm not so sure that it can hold the title of the first three rail scale locomotive.  If we look for a steam locomotive with overall scale dimension designed for running on O-72 curves and advertized for its scale fidelity there is another.  The 250E debuted in 1935. 

 

 

 

 I had the pleasure of looking at a 700e often in Gramps locked showcase while growing up. Not my favorite, or "mint" condition wise, but a beautiful loco. That tender roller always bothered me too, even on a shelf. 

 I was under the belief, from listening to the old guys in the basement debates, that it was made to impress folks with the die cast detailing well enough to keep some from going to the growing number of scale brass, or wood body kits, and to draw others already it those markets away. Also another reason for the kit form outside of price.

So, do we agree that Joshua Lionel Cowan, the most famous person in O gauge, started 3 Rail Scale in 1935?  And so this means that 2015 will be the 100th (ammended, 80th) anniversary of 3RS?  So much for anyone who thinks 3RS is a Johnny-come-lately niche segment of our great hobby. 

 

Viva our O gauge segment of the hobby be it 3RS, 2RS and everything else including a toy train running around the Christmas tree.

No.

An original 700e is my ultimate wish list engine. I'd take it and run it long before I'd ever consider a modern remake. I'd even run it in outside third rail but then again that's what I run anyways.

What I do agree on is that your math is not very good. 2015 would be the 80th anniversary of an event occurring in 1935.

 

Simon

Simon.  how dare you correct my math.  I have a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering.  .  Seriously.  Brain fart.  Thanks.

 

So, is JLC the first 3 Rail Scaler or not?

I'll agree with mwb.

Me too.

Okay, now that my question hijacked my own topic, I'll bite.  Hot Water, bob2 and Martin, who was the first 3 Rail Scaler?  It's easy to just say NO like the Congress.  Put up or shut up is what we say down here.

 

Seriously, I'd like to know.  3RS as a Category seemed to show up one day a few years ago and it immediately made sense to me as a way to go for O scale fidelity in less space.

Fred, good to hear from you.  I was an avid follower of your stud rail adventures.  I was thinking hard about trying it before I took the "easy way out" and converted my home layout main level to 2RS with a planned 3 RS Scaletrax upper level high enough that the center rail is hard to see.  I run my 3RS engines on the modular club layout for now.  Best of both worlds. No need to choose.  Would enjoy an update on what you're currently into.  (Maybe it's on the forum and I've missed it)

Bill, once I came to the realization that thanks to technology, 3 rail is basically at functional obsolescence, I knew that the time for yet another form of 3 rail track such as stud rail, to have a chance to take hold was about 40 years in the past. 2 rail battery power is the overall future. This meant that 3 rail exists now solely for tradition. My biggest 3 rail love has actually always been outside 3rd rail and I have a few old outside rail brass engines. I couldn't bring myself to convert them and decided to continue a lost art by building an outside rail layout complete with old code 172 rail, of which I have around 500 feet of bulk rail in nickel silver. I decided to relax a bit and forego the level of realism that I original strove for to just embrace some history. An original 700e is my dream engine. I've already got several 700e outside rail pickups. My modern engines will be converted to run on the layout using onboard battery power rather than outside rail pickup. I'm jealous of your engine!

Put up or shut up?  Frank Thomson (RIP) of Philadelphia sent me one of the earliest Scale Craft K-4s to two-rail.  It was ca. 1929.  Roy Egolf, also of PHL, made lots of scale models, and his earliest were 3-rail.  These are both pre-700E.

 

Welcome back, Fred.  Can I re-post yours for Geno?

Hey Fred

 

Good to see you back here again.

 

So, is JLC the first 3 Rail Scaler or not?

 

Neither JLC nor Mike Wolf were the first three rail scalers in their era.  But they were the most important.  Three Rail Scale is a great concept.  Being able to run scale equipment on 36 inch radius curves opens up O scale modeling to many, many people.  Being able to buy scale locomotives that are reliable runners out of the box for less than the price of a used Ford or Chevy has taken 3RS from being a great concept to a big force in the model train marketplace.  Lionel laid the ground work and set the defacto standards in the 1930s.  The concept lay dormant until the late 1980s.  It came back to the forefront in 1994 and has flourished since.

 

JLC and Mike Wolf didn't establish the concept.  But they have made three rail scale model railroading accessible to thousands.

 

 

 

 

Fred. Thanks for the update.  I really admire what you've done in the past and are doing now.  Following your own path!!  Me too,  to a lesser degree, with my lower level for running 2RS and my upper level for running 3RS (and on the club modular layout).  All O scale is good.    

 

Ted, thanks for your take on this.  Makes sense to me that JLC and Mike Wolf led in their eras in FACILITATING 3RS rather than creating it.  Where do you put Atlas O and the others in all this?   Do you happen to know who coined the phrase 3 Rail Scale for the OGR Forum?  Because it was here on the Forum that I first saw it.  Before that I thought I was a Hi-railer.  

 

bob2.  The put up or shut up was meant in jest.  No disrespect intended.  Was just trying to draw out some specifics and it worked!  Excellent answer.  Now we're all the way back to 1929 for a true 3RS engine. Wow.  

I actually never went anywhere. I lurk here everyday. I just don't post as often as I used to.

 

Bill: Next time I'm in Austin I need to stop by to see your setup. I get over there a few times a year. I'm in Houston so it's not that far.

Are you the original owner?  Why does the lead truck have wheels with large flanges and the drivers don't?  I think someone may have changed some things around.  I do agree it is scale in proportions but otherwise?????  Also, I have some 2 rail scale engines from way back and they didn't have what looks like Kadee couplers, they have dummy couplers.  And one more thing, I have never seen an electrical pickup between the trucks like on the tender.  I may be all wet but I think more research is needed.

 

Rick

 

Those are scale flanges, at least the 1930's version of scale flanges. Most O scale equipment of that era right up through the 1950s (including 2 rail) had similar flanges. The small flanges currently used on 2 rail equipment did not come into common use until the modern era.

 

The tinplate flanges are much larger and the pilot wheels themselves are smaller on the tubular track versions.

 

Also, the tender pickup is original. As another poster mentioned, the remakes of the 700E don't have this pickup, but the original 700E did.

 

Jim

 

I use the pre- 1950 flanges and wheel treads too.  Many of my 2- rail scale buddies look down their nose at me, but my trackwork is not good enough for true scale wheels.  I have one loop of 1 1/8" gauge, which puts the outer face of the wheels at exactly the right point for true scale.  I tried Proto- 48 wheels on that, but without success.

 

The Lionel 700 freight car flanges have no problems on modern code 148 track with giant spikes.  I have all three of my 715s running in a scale freight as I type.

 

When I was very young I converted some import freight cars to more or less scale flange depth on an Unimat.  They still track ok, but it wasn't worth the effort.

What a beauty!

I have a built 700K; storing for my wife's o scale club. It's amazing Maybe a photo shoot is in order.

Ted, thanks for your take on this.  Makes sense to me that JLC and Mike Wolf led in their eras in FACILITATING 3RS rather than creating it.  Where do you put Atlas O and the others in all this?

Bill

 

Mike helped to start the renewed 3 rail O scale movement going in the late 80s and early 90s working with Lionel and Samhongsa on locomotives like the Reading T-1, Mikado and NYC Mohawk.  MTH took it to a new level with the scale Challenger in 1994.  Other locomotives followed and MTH also started to introduce O scale freight cars in 1995.  Atlas got back into O scale in 1998 with very nicely detailed models. In the early to mid 2000s the market success by Atlas prompted Lionel, MTH and Weaver to offer more highly detailed freight cars.  We have models like the Lionel PS series freight cars, the MTH USRA, AAR and 50' high cube box cars and drop bottom gon and Weaver B&O and Milwaukee box cars thanks in no small part to the competition from Atlas. 

 

If you look at the last 80 years of 3 rail O the time when O became most like HO for variety of equipment and road names was in the decade from 2000-2010.  Speaking personally, prior to 2000 I purchased a lot of UP since it was the only northwest road name available with a wide selection of models.  Since 2000 I have been able to model the GN, NP and Milwaukee steam and electrics with excellent detail, far better out of the box performance and equal or lower cost than if I was working in HO.

 

It is all good, and better than ever. 

 

Erik.  Yes, do a photo shoot.  I always enjoy your excellent photos.

 

Ted.  Thanks a bunch for the interesting history lesson.

Hi again, Ted.  You've mentioned the 1994 MTh Premier Challenger twice now.  What was significant about it and it's place in the history of O scale 3 rail?  Like is it iconic like the 700E/K or what?

Bill

 

The Lionel scale Hudson is an iconic locomotive because nothing equaled or surpassed it for about 50 years.

 

The MTH scale Challenger is historically important for two reasons.  It was the first diecast O scale articulated locomotive.  And it was the first of so many more O-72 locomotives that have been introduced over the last 20 years.  The MTH scale challenger has been followed by Big Boys, Y-3s, Y-6s, As, the DM&IR Yellowstone, B&O EM-1, C&O H-7 and H-8, GN R-2, NP and WM Challengers, SP cab forwards and more.   There have also been UP gas turbines and PRR, GN and Milwaukee Road electrics that all require O-72.  The all those attractive scale locomotives plus the availability of track systems like Gargraves/Ross, Atlas and MTH ScaleTrax lead to the construction of many O-72+ layouts.  And because so many layouts have been built to handle scale steam and electric locomotives there is a market for things like full scale length passenger cars and auto racks and fixed pilot diesels. 

 

In this case the scale locomotives were the chickens that laid the scale layout eggs. 

I think I agree with Ted.  Some absolutely stunning things have come out of the 3-rail scale movement.  They really started somewhat before 1996; I am not sure exactly when. I did some MTH reviews, including that Challenger and a Great Northern 4-8-4.  he Challenger had dimensional issues, but it was indeed a stunning piece.

 

I wanted a 1990s Hudson, but settled for the MTH version.  That took some serious mods to make it compatible with my collection.  I may yet tackle the 1-700e, but I have not completed the 2-railing of the FEF, and have not started the UP 4-12-2.

 

I can puzzle all I want about how you guys put up with such unrealistic track under such realistic models, but I have to hand it to you - you have dramatically changed the O Scale landscape.  My hat is off to you.

Awesome engine, at $75 a piece when new they still look great today. I think there is a bit of a balancing act between realistic operation and scale track and wheels. With plenty of room for all.

Now I can see that the 1994 MTH Challenger is in the same league as the pre-war 700E and Mike Wolf deserves credit as the gent who carried on JLC's vision.

 

I had 3 rail layouts from my childhood to the present  -- off and on -- but mostly on.  The longest break was from about the mid 80's to the mid 90's.  Bummed by Lionel MPC and all the other junk, but also being in an intensive part of my "career." 

 

So, realizing that I was gonna retire soon --  in about 1997 -- I went to Pat Neil's (gone but not forgotten) Collectible Toys and Trains bricks and mortar train store (remember?) in Dallas to see what was happening in 3 rail O gauge.  WOW!!!  Didn't wait until I retired.  Bought trains that day. IMO more had happened in that short timeframe than had happened in the decades between the post-war golden era and the early 90's. 

 

So, Mike Wolf gets a lotta credit.  But, to extend the discussion of the 700E and JLC's importance to us O folks and on down the modern gurus, --- how about Neil Young et al for TMCC?  (Google Neil Young and the TMCC patent for an interesting read).   That was the other WOW that day in Pat's awesome bricks and mortar train store in North Dallas.  Shelves chock full of full O scale dimensioned "realistic"  trains some of which ran on TMCC. 

 

Still in all, the 700E is -- to me anyway -- is the single most iconic 3 rail engine of all time and as such introduced the concept of 3RS into a lot of brains.  But whatever, it's all good.   

That was a huge hunk of money at the time, but it was also quite cheap for O Scale, due to economies of scale(ignore the pun) and the use of die casting. It was arguably the first massed produced model in the segment(it established the segment).