I have been thinking about this mod for some time. I have a few Pullmor NYC Hudsons from the '90s. I also have a K-Line Hudson with the smaller Mabuchi motor and while a fine looking engine I was never impressed with its pulling power. Checking the Pullmor frames it was obvious a Pittman would not be a drop in mod. What finally pushed me to start this project was learning that Lionel is beginning to offer its early legacy boards for sale. In particular was the sound board for the Vision Hudson, cab number 5344. It seemed only appropriate to start with a Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson as it was built on 5344.

I thought it would be a good idea to start with a spare frame to cut up in case any mistakes were made. I don't claim to be a machinist but have the equipment and know how to make chips. As any machinist knows one mistake with a hand wheel and 2 days work and $$$ can go down the drain.

Here is what I started with after removing the electronics. I was hoping that simply removing the motor mount would allow placement of the Pittman.

CV_Chassis_Before

CV Body Before:

CV_Body_Before

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

Between the first photo and second these were the mods required. The mounting posts in the body were too close together for the Pittman to fit between. Not only did the posts have to be removed, the fame needed to be widened for the new screw locations and body modified for screw mounts.

Below are the frame mods with attachments for screw mounts, motor mounts, plus fan smoke unit mount.

CV_Frame_Mods

Modification to the CV Body. Aluminum blocks were attached with JB Weld after the original mounts were machined off. No room for screw holes into the body.

CV_Body_After

Other minor mods were shortening the worm shaft and resizing from English to metric to match the motor shaft diameter. Also the smoke unit stack to fit the CV. Then adding one of my Lionel Niagara driveshafts. I had tried a shorter driveshaft with a single U Joint but found the angle too steep. The longer double jointed U Joint has less of an angle but required redrilling the frame to allow the motor being moved further back. Another good reason for starting with a spare frame.

Also the flywheel was modified to fit the short shaft and still allow fitting the driveshaft.

 

While doing this mod I learned a lot about the Pullmor Hudsons and even about the modern Hudsons going back maybe to the 700E. I don't have any pics of a 700E chassis but have seen the the 1950 773 and the chassis from then through the '90s appear to be essentially the same. I can only guess the 700E is also the same given many of the more modern replacement parts still carry its ID number.

While short on detail they were built like tanks with quality parts. They were also built using English dimensions and many parts do not interchange with the later metric Hudsons. I was hoping to replace the plain bearing rods with roller bearing items but wheel spacing went from 1.75" to 44 mm or 1.732". Close but no cigar.

Here is an example of the worm gear from a Pullmor Hudson compared with the one from Lionel's Niagara. The Niagara gear is the small dot in the middle of the brass gear. Any surprise they failed?

CV_Gears

Here are the side rods from the CV Hudson (right) next to the siderods from a Niagara. Note the bronze bushing in CV rods

CV_Rods

Anyway, other than repainting this pretty much completes the mechanical mods. While tuning the motor and driveshaft placement I used my DC power supply and made adjustments for minimum current draw. Starting at over 1 amp I was able to reduce it to .35 amp at 10 volts.

 

Next step, installing the Legacy electronics. I was going to add a swinging bell but as its buried in the CV shell its nearly invisible and there is very little room for movement so that will wait for another project.

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Attachments

Images (7)
Last edited by Norton
Original Post

WOW Pete,

   This is masterful craftsmanship   This is what i call BIG LEAGUE  WORK !!!

  Looks like you used the driveshaft parts from the Niagara rebuilds we do.

Alex

Excellent mod/job.  Craftsmanship at it's best!

I tried to change out a pull-mor in my Lionel "War-Horse" a few years ago. Was going to replace it with a can motor (Timko).  Total disaster!!! I was trying to use the original boards by modify them to accept DC.  There was an article by a fellow that did that type of mod on American Flyer engines.

Ended up selling the can motor.  Reinstalled the pull-mor and sold the engine (or should I say...gave it away).

Your mod should be a resounding success!

Thanks guys. Alex, that is one of my spare Niagara driveshafts. I first tried the one I got from Stock Drive Parts but didn't like the angle. It also drew a tenth of an amp more indicating more resistance. The flywheel from the Niagara would have been perfect as it has an extended motor shaft machined in but they are listed as out of stock at Lionel.

What do you think of the Pullmor worm gear? What was Lionel thinking when they designed the Niagara?

Pete

Nice work; I bash things, but i have never attempted anything quite this "deep".

Mechanically, the 700E and descendants were/are mechanically magnificent. A Pullmor can be OK...but...

If only someone would produce an actual kit for this - or a similar - flywheel/DC can conversion for these locos (and the AC Mohawks). The motor need not be as large as the one you used, or a Pittman, though that brand would be esthetically preferable.

A basic kit that does not require the machining (would fit under the existing shell) that you did: motor, flywheel, u-joints only requiring the shortening of the original worm gear shaft, some "adapter" mounting brackets or the like. I feel that many of us would like to enjoy these tank-like beauties in a modern way, with new ERR DC cruise and command and the like. It seems that there could be an actual market. 

I have the abilities to install a decent motor kit, but I am not sure I want to dig as deep as you have (though I am abusing an "ATSF" Warhorse Hudson right now - we need a Dreyfuss/Mercury version of the 5344, and I am using an old Williams brass Dreyfuss as the brass streamlining donor...it's a journey).

Your motor installation appears impressive. 

If you're not pulling huge trains the Timko motor is a drop in with no mods to do. The Timko motor and ERR cruise brings you up to date.

Rod Miller

Frank Timko and his folks are excellent Fabricators, and Machinist. I've seen several engines that he has re motored, and they do fantastic work. Plus he won't BS you .

 

D, it might be possible to use a DC motor with more torque than a Mabuchi RS385 but it would have to be quite short to fit on the existing motor mount. The motor I used is 61mm long. I have another Pittman that is 56mm long. I was hoping that would fit on the existing mount but even that is too long. Maybe someone makes a pancake motor that would fit?

Lionel is selling the frames with wheels for the Vision Hudson that might work. The  mounting holes in the rear of the frame are located near the edge of the frame like my mod. You would still have remove the mounting posts in the body and glue in new mounts similar to what I did. It could be done with saws and files. Just take a bit longer.

Vision Hudson Frame.

image

Pancake motor similar to this.

http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/m...ilterCategory=ecflat

 Maxon 200189:

image 

Pete

Attachments

Images (2)
Last edited by Norton

Ah, another Lionel Hudson thread to peak my interests.

Superb work as always Pete.

For the record, the chassis' of the Lionel scale Hudsons was the same from the 1950 773 up to Gold Hudson of 2000, and I think a few others after. It was when Lionel brought out the J3a's and the later Vision 700E the frame was made completely different.

I'm doing something very similar (but significantly less intricate) with my Lionel Hudsons, so I'm looking forward to seeing how the control and sound electronics are going to go in.

Frank has no worries. I am one and done. No interest in mass production for me. However, the idea of a pancake motor has piqued my interest.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
Norton posted:

D, it might be possible to use a DC motor with more torque than a Mabuchi RS385 but it would have to be quite short to fit on the existing motor mount. The motor I used is 61mm long. I have another Pittman that is 56mm long. I was hoping that would fit on the existing mount but even that is too long. Maybe someone makes a pancake motor that would fit?

Lionel is selling the frames with wheels for the Vision Hudson that might work. The  mounting holes in the rear of the frame are located near the edge of the frame like my mod. You would still have remove the mounting posts in the body and glue in new mounts similar to what I did. It could be done with saws and files. Just take a bit longer.

Vision Hudson Frame.

image

Pancake motor similar to this.

http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/m...ilterCategory=ecflat

 Maxon 200189:

image 

Pete

 Maxon 200189:

http://www.maxonmotor.com/maxon/view/product/200189

Is a brushless (synchronous AC motor) DC  motor. How would you control the RPM's as voltage fed to the motor does not change RPM's? You would need to install a variable frequency drive.  That is certainly doable.

You may be able to take speed controller from the RC world. The AC from the track would need to be changed to DC before being fed into the speed controller. The speed controller then would take the DC and change it to an AC waveform to control the rotational speed of the rotor. 

You would also need to find a way to have either Legacy or DCS control the variable speed controller. 

It would be quite the accomplishment to pull this one off. 

Norton posted:

 

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

 

Have you test fitted the shell yet?  I'm surprised that you didn't have to keep the motor parallel to the track!  Also, I know there are shorter versions of the Pittman 943x if clearance to the cab wall is an issue.  Great work, and can't wait to see the finished product, especially a video of it in operation.

"Creep, coast, and pull.  It's not that hard!!"

Ted Sowirka posted:
Norton posted:

 

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

 

Have you test fitted the shell yet?  I'm surprised that you didn't have to keep the motor parallel to the track!  Also, I know there are shorter versions of the Pittman 943x if clearance to the cab wall is an issue.  Great work, and can't wait to see the finished product, especially a video of it in operation.

"Creep, coast, and pull.  It's not that hard!!"

Ted, I did a test run last night. Had to wait for some of the valve gear parts that were missing. Fairly crude setup in that department.

I hooked up the motor directly to the frame and pickup rollers and powered it with a DC power pack. After a few adjustments to the valve gear I was able to get it  to creep along at 2.5 v and .38 amps. I plan to tweak it some more for even smoother running.

Like I said the valve gear is crude and sloppy. Side rods are fine but the fasteners barely clear the rods and want to rub on them. I am considering getting some of the valve gear from the Vision Hudson but will first have to make sure they will fit under the shell which hangs over most of it.

As for the motor not horizontal, wouldn't fit that way in the frame and to do that I would have had to replace the gearbox with one with double worm gears like the Niagara. That would mean two smaller gears and we know how that turned out.

The angle was determined by where U joint on the driveshaft was on axis with the worm shaft. The motor mount was bent until that angle was achieved and checked using the ammeter on my DC power supply. There was a null (minimum current draw) when the angle was optimal. Too much one way or the other and the current draw increased.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I love the forum many great people with terrific ideas and keeping railroading alive again great job well done cant wait to see the finished product!

Alan

Nice workmanship, Pete.  I have the same CV engine and thought a similar installation might be doable at some future date.  I'm learning vicariously through you that a total lack of machining skills and equipment makes the conversion by myself pretty much a washout.  My Dremel would never survive the punishment.

You might have had a better candidate for conversion in the same era C&O Yellow Belly Hudson.  It came without any boiler backhead...room enough for 2 cans in a row back there.

On a similar note, I've been adapting a vertical motor from a Legacy diesel into an old 2R Brass 4-4-2.  The crude final drive actually works smoother than expected, so I'll probably kick it up a notch and install an ERR kit.  Further reworking is needed to install pickup rollers, plus the electronics and associated wiring.

Been tweaking the driveline but have yet to see what kind of amperage it draws.

The crude worm gear drive adapted to accept the vertical drive U joint....easy peasy.  Everything is made of brass...axles and all!

On the test rollers at full speed, but will creep when coaxed.

 

Bruce

Last edited by brwebster
romiller49 posted:

If you're not pulling huge trains the Timko motor is a drop in with no mods to do. The Timko motor and ERR cruise brings you up to date.

Rod Miller

That's what I did to my CV. It runs beautifully. The gear ratio is low enough to assist the smaller motor.

The original sound system works well and I regularly pull a 9 car heavyweight train.

But then, I am not a talented machinist, so I cannot roll my own.

Last edited by RoyBoy

Bruce, nice work. Having more room for the longer motor would help but one thing that surprised me when I was trying to fit even my shorter 56mm Pittman is the fact the while the Pullmor has a larger overall diameter, the output shaft is off center so the case does not hang down as far as these 40mm diameter Pittmans do. That causes them to interfere with the trailing truck mount. So even if you could hang the back of the motor into the cab for lack of a backhead, the motor still could not be placed on axis with the worm shaft. 

The existing mount would still have to be modified some to accomodate the now off axis motor shaft though not as extensively as I did.

image

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)
Norton posted:

Bruce, nice work. Having more room for the longer motor would help but one thing that surprised me when I was trying to fit even my shorter 56mm Pittman is the fact the while the Pullmor has a larger overall diameter, the output shaft is off center so the case does not hang down as far as these 40mm diameter Pittmans do. That causes them to interfere with the trailing truck mount. So even if you could hang the back of the motor into the cab for lack of a backhead, the motor still could not be placed on axis with the worm shaft. 

The existing mount would still have to be modified some to accomodate the now off axis motor shaft though not as extensively as I did.

image

Pete

Totally understood!  One advantage of the floating gearbox in the old doorstops is that they can tilt 20 degrees or so, allowing the worm gear shaft to parallel the armature shaft.  Had Lionel constructed theirs is such a way, we'd all have an easier time doing away with the Pullmors.  Then again, I suppose the fewer moving parts in the entire assembly, the less likely that parts will become worn over time.  All the solid mounting does nothing to help keep a Pullmor quiet.

An idea that came to mind the last time I lubed my CV would be to machine the gearbox case area to accept roller bearings in place of the stock bronze bushings and introduce a tilt to the worm shaft in the process.  In this way the 2 shafts, motor and worm, would be positioned relatively parallel to each other, with any slight discrepancies in parallel and shaft diameter corrected by your U joint, while retaining the tilt of the assembly needed to clear the rear truck.  Still, the massive amount of material removal needed to fit the can motor, and no skill or equipment to do so, sort of stymied my brainstorm.

Bruce

 

The idea of upgrading the valve gear on the CV Hudson will be just a pipe dream.

The valve gear from non streamlined Hudsons was greatly simplified and the cylinders modified to fit in the CV streamlined shell. The shell was also relieved to help fit the cylinders. 

I have attached a pic of the Vision Hudson to compare what has been eliminated. The 1990 700E has similar detail. 

image

image

 

image

Any valve gear upgrade will have to be custom fabricated so I will save that for a later day.

Pete

Attachments

Images (3)

Pete and friends...

I've held off on the Timko rebuilding of my Commodore for a while now, until I got the impetus. Well guess what? You started that body in motion, and our CNY-NRHS Open House this Thursday sealed the deal.

I sat down this morning, and with the help of GunRunnerJohn, I think we have a schematic that should work...

Com Van ERR & Cuper Chuffer Install - no ground lights

 

I hope this helps!

Pete, are you stopping by on Thursday at the club?

Thanks,

Mario

Attachments

Images (1)

Mario, what time do youse guys meet. I am about a 1 1/2 hours away from Syracuse.

I am not using a Cruise Commander but going with Legacy all the way. The availability of the Legacy Sound board for the Vision Hudson, also 5344 as is the CV, sealed the deal for me. That and a Legacy R4LC and back emf board should do it along with one of my own SD Chuffers.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
Norton posted:

Mario, what time do youse guys meet. I am about a 1 1/2 hours away from Syracuse.

I am not using a Cruise Commander but going with Legacy all the way. The availability of the Legacy Sound board for the Vision Hudson, also 5344 as is the CV, sealed the deal for me. That and a Legacy R4LC and back emf board should do it along with one of my own SD Chuffers.

Pete

Pete...

CNY-NRHS Open House

 

Thanks!

See you there.

- Mario

Attachments

Images (1)

Hey, Pete. 

I may not have legacy, but...

IMG_8904

Tang Band T1-1828S. F0=78Hz!

thats the stock 2 1/4" speaker on the left, and a 9v for size comparison. The Tang Band in the middle is what I did my diesel work with. 

Attachments

Images (1)

Thats pretty impressive. I will have to think about it. I picked up the dual enclosure for a pair a baby fatboys thats in the Vision Hudsons but an F0 of 78 hz has to be considered. Whats cool about these tenders, at least for the Silver version CV is the whole body is the enclosure complete with paper gasket. Even the stock speaker sounds pretty good.

Pete

Mr Norton; thanks much for sharing great info!  I recall the J-3A/28072 Hudson had a Pittman of shorter length (6108080100) but the chassis was made for the inclined mounting of the Pittman with the standard motor mounting bracket; do not know if the gearing for the main wheel drive was the same as the traditional Pullmor Hudsons.  I have been tempted to pickup an 8406 and try this mod; your info has really lit up some ideas!  Thanks again and I will keep looking; Falcon70

Falcon, The motor is the same one I used. 61mm long, 15.1 volt. I do have a 56mm motor as well that may have come from the Dreyfuss Hudson but not sure. The gearbox on the J3 looks similar though canted like you say. Gear ratio may be close but probably not identical as all the dimensions on the J3s are metric.

Give it a shot. Even though I have a Bridgeport, most of the metal was removed with my bandsaw. A hacksaw would only take a few minutes more. When I started I bought the flywheel and a few dogbones from the J3 but ended up using the ebay U Joints that I bought for the Niagara upgrades.

Pete

Mario, I plan to add pickups. The Black CV has them but the silver one doesn't. When I started this I decided to gut the Silver chassis and swap the Silver bodies on to the Black chassis. The Black CV came with a wireless tether, electro couplers, RS3, and pickup rollers. Rather than gut these the next owner will benefit from these upgrades. As a result I now have to add pickups to the tender. Not a big deal as I am in no rush to finish this. This is just a test mule for different ideas.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Just an update on this project. It was put on hold first for last summers activities, then many smaller projects were taken care of when train season returned last fall.

Last month I started working on this engine again. Most of the electronics have been installed along with all of the required wiring, brackets, custom circuits plus added details to the engine.

I tried posting a more details earlier but my browser crashed so I will post in stages what went into this. For now just a reminder of what I started with and where it stands now. Later I will post more details on what it took to build this.

CV_StartCV_CurrentCV_Cab1

CV

Pete

 

Attachments

Images (4)

Add Reply

Post
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×