I have been thinking about this mod for some time. I have a few Pullmor NYC Hudsons from the '90s. I also have a K-Line Hudson with the smaller Mabuchi motor and while a fine looking engine I was never impressed with its pulling power. Checking the Pullmor frames it was obvious a Pittman would not be a drop in mod. What finally pushed me to start this project was learning that Lionel is beginning to offer its early legacy boards for sale. In particular was the sound board for the Vision Hudson, cab number 5344. It seemed only appropriate to start with a Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson as it was built on 5344.

I thought it would be a good idea to start with a spare frame to cut up in case any mistakes were made. I don't claim to be a machinist but have the equipment and know how to make chips. As any machinist knows one mistake with a hand wheel and 2 days work and $$$ can go down the drain.

Here is what I started with after removing the electronics. I was hoping that simply removing the motor mount would allow placement of the Pittman.

CV_Chassis_Before

CV Body Before:

CV_Body_Before

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

Between the first photo and second these were the mods required. The mounting posts in the body were too close together for the Pittman to fit between. Not only did the posts have to be removed, the fame needed to be widened for the new screw locations and body modified for screw mounts.

Below are the frame mods with attachments for screw mounts, motor mounts, plus fan smoke unit mount.

CV_Frame_Mods

Modification to the CV Body. Aluminum blocks were attached with JB Weld after the original mounts were machined off. No room for screw holes into the body.

CV_Body_After

Other minor mods were shortening the worm shaft and resizing from English to metric to match the motor shaft diameter. Also the smoke unit stack to fit the CV. Then adding one of my Lionel Niagara driveshafts. I had tried a shorter driveshaft with a single U Joint but found the angle too steep. The longer double jointed U Joint has less of an angle but required redrilling the frame to allow the motor being moved further back. Another good reason for starting with a spare frame.

Also the flywheel was modified to fit the short shaft and still allow fitting the driveshaft.

 

While doing this mod I learned a lot about the Pullmor Hudsons and even about the modern Hudsons going back maybe to the 700E. I don't have any pics of a 700E chassis but have seen the the 1950 773 and the chassis from then through the '90s appear to be essentially the same. I can only guess the 700E is also the same given many of the more modern replacement parts still carry its ID number.

While short on detail they were built like tanks with quality parts. They were also built using English dimensions and many parts do not interchange with the later metric Hudsons. I was hoping to replace the plain bearing rods with roller bearing items but wheel spacing went from 1.75" to 44 mm or 1.732". Close but no cigar.

Here is an example of the worm gear from a Pullmor Hudson compared with the one from Lionel's Niagara. The Niagara gear is the small dot in the middle of the brass gear. Any surprise they failed?

CV_Gears

Here are the side rods from the CV Hudson (right) next to the siderods from a Niagara. Note the bronze bushing in CV rods

CV_Rods

Anyway, other than repainting this pretty much completes the mechanical mods. While tuning the motor and driveshaft placement I used my DC power supply and made adjustments for minimum current draw. Starting at over 1 amp I was able to reduce it to .35 amp at 10 volts.

 

Next step, installing the Legacy electronics. I was going to add a swinging bell but as its buried in the CV shell its nearly invisible and there is very little room for movement so that will wait for another project.

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Attachments

Images (7)
Last edited by Norton
Original Post

WOW Pete,

   This is masterful craftsmanship   This is what i call BIG LEAGUE  WORK !!!

  Looks like you used the driveshaft parts from the Niagara rebuilds we do.

Alex

Excellent mod/job.  Craftsmanship at it's best!

I tried to change out a pull-mor in my Lionel "War-Horse" a few years ago. Was going to replace it with a can motor (Timko).  Total disaster!!! I was trying to use the original boards by modify them to accept DC.  There was an article by a fellow that did that type of mod on American Flyer engines.

Ended up selling the can motor.  Reinstalled the pull-mor and sold the engine (or should I say...gave it away).

Your mod should be a resounding success!

Thanks guys. Alex, that is one of my spare Niagara driveshafts. I first tried the one I got from Stock Drive Parts but didn't like the angle. It also drew a tenth of an amp more indicating more resistance. The flywheel from the Niagara would have been perfect as it has an extended motor shaft machined in but they are listed as out of stock at Lionel.

What do you think of the Pullmor worm gear? What was Lionel thinking when they designed the Niagara?

Pete

Nice work; I bash things, but i have never attempted anything quite this "deep".

Mechanically, the 700E and descendants were/are mechanically magnificent. A Pullmor can be OK...but...

If only someone would produce an actual kit for this - or a similar - flywheel/DC can conversion for these locos (and the AC Mohawks). The motor need not be as large as the one you used, or a Pittman, though that brand would be esthetically preferable.

A basic kit that does not require the machining (would fit under the existing shell) that you did: motor, flywheel, u-joints only requiring the shortening of the original worm gear shaft, some "adapter" mounting brackets or the like. I feel that many of us would like to enjoy these tank-like beauties in a modern way, with new ERR DC cruise and command and the like. It seems that there could be an actual market. 

I have the abilities to install a decent motor kit, but I am not sure I want to dig as deep as you have (though I am abusing an "ATSF" Warhorse Hudson right now - we need a Dreyfuss/Mercury version of the 5344, and I am using an old Williams brass Dreyfuss as the brass streamlining donor...it's a journey).

Your motor installation appears impressive. 

If you're not pulling huge trains the Timko motor is a drop in with no mods to do. The Timko motor and ERR cruise brings you up to date.

Rod Miller

Frank Timko and his folks are excellent Fabricators, and Machinist. I've seen several engines that he has re motored, and they do fantastic work. Plus he won't BS you .

 

D, it might be possible to use a DC motor with more torque than a Mabuchi RS385 but it would have to be quite short to fit on the existing motor mount. The motor I used is 61mm long. I have another Pittman that is 56mm long. I was hoping that would fit on the existing mount but even that is too long. Maybe someone makes a pancake motor that would fit?

Lionel is selling the frames with wheels for the Vision Hudson that might work. The  mounting holes in the rear of the frame are located near the edge of the frame like my mod. You would still have remove the mounting posts in the body and glue in new mounts similar to what I did. It could be done with saws and files. Just take a bit longer.

Vision Hudson Frame.

image

Pancake motor similar to this.

http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/m...ilterCategory=ecflat

 Maxon 200189:

image 

Pete

Attachments

Images (2)
Last edited by Norton

Ah, another Lionel Hudson thread to peak my interests.

Superb work as always Pete.

For the record, the chassis' of the Lionel scale Hudsons was the same from the 1950 773 up to Gold Hudson of 2000, and I think a few others after. It was when Lionel brought out the J3a's and the later Vision 700E the frame was made completely different.

I'm doing something very similar (but significantly less intricate) with my Lionel Hudsons, so I'm looking forward to seeing how the control and sound electronics are going to go in.

Frank has no worries. I am one and done. No interest in mass production for me. However, the idea of a pancake motor has piqued my interest.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
Norton posted:

D, it might be possible to use a DC motor with more torque than a Mabuchi RS385 but it would have to be quite short to fit on the existing motor mount. The motor I used is 61mm long. I have another Pittman that is 56mm long. I was hoping that would fit on the existing mount but even that is too long. Maybe someone makes a pancake motor that would fit?

Lionel is selling the frames with wheels for the Vision Hudson that might work. The  mounting holes in the rear of the frame are located near the edge of the frame like my mod. You would still have remove the mounting posts in the body and glue in new mounts similar to what I did. It could be done with saws and files. Just take a bit longer.

Vision Hudson Frame.

image

Pancake motor similar to this.

http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/m...ilterCategory=ecflat

 Maxon 200189:

image 

Pete

 Maxon 200189:

http://www.maxonmotor.com/maxon/view/product/200189

Is a brushless (synchronous AC motor) DC  motor. How would you control the RPM's as voltage fed to the motor does not change RPM's? You would need to install a variable frequency drive.  That is certainly doable.

You may be able to take speed controller from the RC world. The AC from the track would need to be changed to DC before being fed into the speed controller. The speed controller then would take the DC and change it to an AC waveform to control the rotational speed of the rotor. 

You would also need to find a way to have either Legacy or DCS control the variable speed controller. 

It would be quite the accomplishment to pull this one off. 

Norton posted:

 

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

 

Have you test fitted the shell yet?  I'm surprised that you didn't have to keep the motor parallel to the track!  Also, I know there are shorter versions of the Pittman 943x if clearance to the cab wall is an issue.  Great work, and can't wait to see the finished product, especially a video of it in operation.

"Creep, coast, and pull.  It's not that hard!!"

Ted Sowirka posted:
Norton posted:

 

Well I was wrong but this is what I ended up with. (Smoke unit tilt is a lens aberration)

CV_Chassis_After

 

Have you test fitted the shell yet?  I'm surprised that you didn't have to keep the motor parallel to the track!  Also, I know there are shorter versions of the Pittman 943x if clearance to the cab wall is an issue.  Great work, and can't wait to see the finished product, especially a video of it in operation.

"Creep, coast, and pull.  It's not that hard!!"

Ted, I did a test run last night. Had to wait for some of the valve gear parts that were missing. Fairly crude setup in that department.

I hooked up the motor directly to the frame and pickup rollers and powered it with a DC power pack. After a few adjustments to the valve gear I was able to get it  to creep along at 2.5 v and .38 amps. I plan to tweak it some more for even smoother running.

Like I said the valve gear is crude and sloppy. Side rods are fine but the fasteners barely clear the rods and want to rub on them. I am considering getting some of the valve gear from the Vision Hudson but will first have to make sure they will fit under the shell which hangs over most of it.

As for the motor not horizontal, wouldn't fit that way in the frame and to do that I would have had to replace the gearbox with one with double worm gears like the Niagara. That would mean two smaller gears and we know how that turned out.

The angle was determined by where U joint on the driveshaft was on axis with the worm shaft. The motor mount was bent until that angle was achieved and checked using the ammeter on my DC power supply. There was a null (minimum current draw) when the angle was optimal. Too much one way or the other and the current draw increased.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I love the forum many great people with terrific ideas and keeping railroading alive again great job well done cant wait to see the finished product!

Alan

Nice workmanship, Pete.  I have the same CV engine and thought a similar installation might be doable at some future date.  I'm learning vicariously through you that a total lack of machining skills and equipment makes the conversion by myself pretty much a washout.  My Dremel would never survive the punishment.

You might have had a better candidate for conversion in the same era C&O Yellow Belly Hudson.  It came without any boiler backhead...room enough for 2 cans in a row back there.

On a similar note, I've been adapting a vertical motor from a Legacy diesel into an old 2R Brass 4-4-2.  The crude final drive actually works smoother than expected, so I'll probably kick it up a notch and install an ERR kit.  Further reworking is needed to install pickup rollers, plus the electronics and associated wiring.

Been tweaking the driveline but have yet to see what kind of amperage it draws.

The crude worm gear drive adapted to accept the vertical drive U joint....easy peasy.  Everything is made of brass...axles and all!

On the test rollers at full speed, but will creep when coaxed.

 

Bruce

Last edited by brwebster
romiller49 posted:

If you're not pulling huge trains the Timko motor is a drop in with no mods to do. The Timko motor and ERR cruise brings you up to date.

Rod Miller

That's what I did to my CV. It runs beautifully. The gear ratio is low enough to assist the smaller motor.

The original sound system works well and I regularly pull a 9 car heavyweight train.

But then, I am not a talented machinist, so I cannot roll my own.

Last edited by RoyBoy

Bruce, nice work. Having more room for the longer motor would help but one thing that surprised me when I was trying to fit even my shorter 56mm Pittman is the fact the while the Pullmor has a larger overall diameter, the output shaft is off center so the case does not hang down as far as these 40mm diameter Pittmans do. That causes them to interfere with the trailing truck mount. So even if you could hang the back of the motor into the cab for lack of a backhead, the motor still could not be placed on axis with the worm shaft. 

The existing mount would still have to be modified some to accomodate the now off axis motor shaft though not as extensively as I did.

image

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)
Norton posted:

Bruce, nice work. Having more room for the longer motor would help but one thing that surprised me when I was trying to fit even my shorter 56mm Pittman is the fact the while the Pullmor has a larger overall diameter, the output shaft is off center so the case does not hang down as far as these 40mm diameter Pittmans do. That causes them to interfere with the trailing truck mount. So even if you could hang the back of the motor into the cab for lack of a backhead, the motor still could not be placed on axis with the worm shaft. 

The existing mount would still have to be modified some to accomodate the now off axis motor shaft though not as extensively as I did.

image

Pete

Totally understood!  One advantage of the floating gearbox in the old doorstops is that they can tilt 20 degrees or so, allowing the worm gear shaft to parallel the armature shaft.  Had Lionel constructed theirs is such a way, we'd all have an easier time doing away with the Pullmors.  Then again, I suppose the fewer moving parts in the entire assembly, the less likely that parts will become worn over time.  All the solid mounting does nothing to help keep a Pullmor quiet.

An idea that came to mind the last time I lubed my CV would be to machine the gearbox case area to accept roller bearings in place of the stock bronze bushings and introduce a tilt to the worm shaft in the process.  In this way the 2 shafts, motor and worm, would be positioned relatively parallel to each other, with any slight discrepancies in parallel and shaft diameter corrected by your U joint, while retaining the tilt of the assembly needed to clear the rear truck.  Still, the massive amount of material removal needed to fit the can motor, and no skill or equipment to do so, sort of stymied my brainstorm.

Bruce

 

The idea of upgrading the valve gear on the CV Hudson will be just a pipe dream.

The valve gear from non streamlined Hudsons was greatly simplified and the cylinders modified to fit in the CV streamlined shell. The shell was also relieved to help fit the cylinders. 

I have attached a pic of the Vision Hudson to compare what has been eliminated. The 1990 700E has similar detail. 

image

image

 

image

Any valve gear upgrade will have to be custom fabricated so I will save that for a later day.

Pete

Attachments

Images (3)

Pete and friends...

I've held off on the Timko rebuilding of my Commodore for a while now, until I got the impetus. Well guess what? You started that body in motion, and our CNY-NRHS Open House this Thursday sealed the deal.

I sat down this morning, and with the help of GunRunnerJohn, I think we have a schematic that should work...

Com Van ERR & Cuper Chuffer Install - no ground lights

 

I hope this helps!

Pete, are you stopping by on Thursday at the club?

Thanks,

Mario

Attachments

Images (1)

Mario, what time do youse guys meet. I am about a 1 1/2 hours away from Syracuse.

I am not using a Cruise Commander but going with Legacy all the way. The availability of the Legacy Sound board for the Vision Hudson, also 5344 as is the CV, sealed the deal for me. That and a Legacy R4LC and back emf board should do it along with one of my own SD Chuffers.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
Norton posted:

Mario, what time do youse guys meet. I am about a 1 1/2 hours away from Syracuse.

I am not using a Cruise Commander but going with Legacy all the way. The availability of the Legacy Sound board for the Vision Hudson, also 5344 as is the CV, sealed the deal for me. That and a Legacy R4LC and back emf board should do it along with one of my own SD Chuffers.

Pete

Pete...

CNY-NRHS Open House

 

Thanks!

See you there.

- Mario

Attachments

Images (1)

Hey, Pete. 

I may not have legacy, but...

IMG_8904

Tang Band T1-1828S. F0=78Hz!

thats the stock 2 1/4" speaker on the left, and a 9v for size comparison. The Tang Band in the middle is what I did my diesel work with. 

Attachments

Images (1)

Thats pretty impressive. I will have to think about it. I picked up the dual enclosure for a pair a baby fatboys thats in the Vision Hudsons but an F0 of 78 hz has to be considered. Whats cool about these tenders, at least for the Silver version CV is the whole body is the enclosure complete with paper gasket. Even the stock speaker sounds pretty good.

Pete

Mr Norton; thanks much for sharing great info!  I recall the J-3A/28072 Hudson had a Pittman of shorter length (6108080100) but the chassis was made for the inclined mounting of the Pittman with the standard motor mounting bracket; do not know if the gearing for the main wheel drive was the same as the traditional Pullmor Hudsons.  I have been tempted to pickup an 8406 and try this mod; your info has really lit up some ideas!  Thanks again and I will keep looking; Falcon70

Falcon, The motor is the same one I used. 61mm long, 15.1 volt. I do have a 56mm motor as well that may have come from the Dreyfuss Hudson but not sure. The gearbox on the J3 looks similar though canted like you say. Gear ratio may be close but probably not identical as all the dimensions on the J3s are metric.

Give it a shot. Even though I have a Bridgeport, most of the metal was removed with my bandsaw. A hacksaw would only take a few minutes more. When I started I bought the flywheel and a few dogbones from the J3 but ended up using the ebay U Joints that I bought for the Niagara upgrades.

Pete

Mario, I plan to add pickups. The Black CV has them but the silver one doesn't. When I started this I decided to gut the Silver chassis and swap the Silver bodies on to the Black chassis. The Black CV came with a wireless tether, electro couplers, RS3, and pickup rollers. Rather than gut these the next owner will benefit from these upgrades. As a result I now have to add pickups to the tender. Not a big deal as I am in no rush to finish this. This is just a test mule for different ideas.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Just an update on this project. It was put on hold first for last summers activities, then many smaller projects were taken care of when train season returned last fall.

Last month I started working on this engine again. Most of the electronics have been installed along with all of the required wiring, brackets, custom circuits plus added details to the engine.

I tried posting a more details earlier but my browser crashed so I will post in stages what went into this. For now just a reminder of what I started with and where it stands now. Later I will post more details on what it took to build this.

CV_StartCV_CurrentCV_Cab1

CV

Pete

 

Attachments

Images (4)

Sound in the tender. Currently using two 50 mm drivers, not Fatboys. This is still a work in progress.

CV_Tender

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)

I have hit a road block John. A few months ago I asked here if a Legacy R4LC could talk to a Railsounds 6 audio board. No one replied. Further reading some of the posts and also doing a lot of work looking at serial data on my scope shows serial data is different between early Legacy and current Legacy. 

My R4LC can talk to RS4, RS5, and RS5.5 tenders but not RS6. The tender sees there is serial data present as sounds don't fire up on power up but it doesn't respond to any input. It responds as expected when coupled to a late Legacy engine.

I hope to have a definitive answer by York.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I see that the two that I have that use the RS6 board both use the RCDR TMCC board, so maybe there's something to your contention.  I did get an RS6 board to work with the Legacy R4LC running it as a TMCC locomotive in my test stand.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I see that the two that I have that use the RS6 board both use the RCDR TMCC board, so maybe there's something to your contention.  I did get an RS6 board to work with the Legacy R4LC running it as a TMCC locomotive in my test stand.

John, when running in TMCC mode was the R4LC connected by direct wire or through the optical devices used in the wireless tether. All my testing was done with a photodiode monitoring the IR LED. Thats is where I saw a difference in serial data. Interesting the RS 6 made sounds when dumbing down the R4LC instead of the other way around. The possible downside of that approach is giving up 200 speed steps to the motor driver.

The CV now crawls in Legacy mode.

Pete

I built an an inverter on advice from JonZ but it made no difference. Also tried both C02 and C03 R4LCs to no avail. I have a C05 on order. I hope to have my hands on an RCDR in a few weeks as well.

Pete

Well, the RCDR is used in both of the locomotives I have with RS6, so that would appear to be the ticket if the C05 version doesn't work.

Yesterday I tried posting a few more pics of custom parts that went into building this engine. Then my browser crashed . I like experimenting and trying different solutions where applicable.

Using optical devices as chuff triggers has been discussed in the past but installing them in most steam engines is rarely easy or reliable. Usually little of the backside of the driver is visible due to the frame design or other components in the way.

This engine lent itself to that approach. The wheels are held on with screws so can come off and be modified and there was plenty of space on the frame to mount a detector.

Here are the drivers before and after. The back was blanked off using .005" styrene and Avery Label material was used as the reflector. The data sheet for the Optek OPB607A sensor actually specified Avery Labels in its examples. Works well and has not skipped a chuff yet. I may even use smaller dots to give better smoke puff definition.

CV_Wheel_Mod

Then I had to make a bracket to hold the optical sensor.

CV_Sense_Bracket

Here is a pic of the bracket installed with sensor (center left) along with the fan smoke bracket made last year. Circuitry to power the detector and drive the fan motor is below smoke unit.

CV_Sensor

Also I had to make a bracket for the program/run switch and smoke on/off switch. This is mounted to the back of the frame in the pic above.

CV_Switch_Bracket

Pete

Attachments

Images (4)
Norton posted:

D, it might be possible to use a DC motor with more torque than a Mabuchi RS385 but it would have to be quite short to fit on the existing motor mount. The motor I used is 61mm long. I have another Pittman that is 56mm long. I was hoping that would fit on the existing mount but even that is too long. Maybe someone makes a pancake motor that would fit?

Lionel is selling the frames with wheels for the Vision Hudson that might work. The  mounting holes in the rear of the frame are located near the edge of the frame like my mod. You would still have remove the mounting posts in the body and glue in new mounts similar to what I did. It could be done with saws and files. Just take a bit longer.

Vision Hudson Frame.

image

Pancake motor similar to this.

http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/m...ilterCategory=ecflat

 Maxon 200189:

image 

Pete

I have a Lionel 6-18000 Pennsy Scale 0-6-0 Swicher with slope back tender......It too has a Pullmor Motor, and I was wanting to install a can motor. I saw one that was done with the Mabuchi RS 385, and I didn't like the cab being full of motor......

This pan cake motor might be the best deal, where I can still get done what I'm needing done, as well as, having the boiler back head, as I was wanting to do this motor change and back lighting the back head, not un like what 3rd rail does on some of their Steam Locomotives....

I want to thank you for posting your pan cake motor find, and info of where to purchase it from/supplier.........!

Maxon 200189 is the pancake motor part number, I need to replace the Pull Mor.........?.........Thanks Brandy!

 

  

Last edited by Brandy

Brandy, I just googled pancake motor for the picture. I can't help with a definitive source. One problem you might have is, pancake motors are much larger in diameter than typical cylindrical motors. Even if you find one the same diameter as the Pullmor consider that the Pullmor shaft is off center. The Pancake motor will sit lower.

This site is a great source for motors of all shapes and sizes. See if they have something that will work for you.

https://www.pololu.com

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I see another problem to using one of the Maxon Coreless motors. (and possibly brushless). How to drive the things. I don't have any experience with the Brushless versions but I tried to drive a coreless Maxon with an LCRU and a DCRU and they did not play well together. The coreless motors when used with PWM need a much higher pulse frequency than any of the TMCC boards I have tried provide.  I have not tried any Legacy driver boards. Has anyone tried driving a coreless motor with Legacy boards ? I have a dozen Maxon motors that are 44mm X 27mm and deliver about 50% more power than a Mabuchi 385 that is the same size. I would love to find a solution to using these with TMCC, Legacy or DCS.  I know that the DCC manufacturers have addressed this problem so it can be done.

   There is another possibility that I have been thinking about. Use two 385s stacked one on top of the other, or side by side, driving a spur gear on the worm gear shaft. You could play with the ratio between the motors and the spur gear to end up with virtually any final drive ratio you may want. The way Carl Tuveson modifies Flyer locos using a Spur and pinion gear with a Can motor gave me the idea.  J

Interesting about Maxon motors. I have used a number of them to repower my HO engines running on straight DC. Haven't tried using them in O gauge stuff. You are right they do make much more power for a given size.

Pete

Pete, looking at a Pancake motor and how the shaft position would cause the lower edge of the motor to sit too close to any trailing truck has a solution. Back to the pinion and spur gear I was talking about  you could use such an arrangement to  raise the pancake motor up to provide clearance for a trailing truck. Now to get a brushless driver to talk to a R2LC  or R4LC.      J

JohnActon posted:

Pete, looking at a Pancake motor and how the shaft position would cause the lower edge of the motor to sit too close to any trailing truck has a solution. Back to the pinion and spur gear I was talking about  you could use such an arrangement to  raise the pancake motor up to provide clearance for a trailing truck. Now to get a brushless driver to talk to a R2LC  or R4LC.      J

For a brushless motor don't you just need DC even if its PWM DC? If so a non Cruise DCDR would work or a DCDS Odyssey board with speed sensor should work. Its the motor driver than matters not the radio board. A Back EMF board would not work.

Pete

Pete -

Impressive upgrade; out of my league. I had forgotten this thread. I'm still wrestling (almost finished...?) with my former "ATSF" Warhorse, Mercury-version Lionel 5344. I'm down to scraping together the decals! Maybe final assembly will occur this week. Going to live with the Pullmor (the more you run it...).

Then maybe a J3a chuff project - right after I look into my suddenly bizarre-running Lionel USRA 2-6-6-2 - it has an early "Odyssey Lurch" gone wild.

Owning a lot means fixing a lot. Another reason to sell a lot.

 

Thanks D. I was going to followup with some of detail upgrades. I picked up a junk Williams Masterpiece Dreyfuss (Smithsonian sister) and retrieved some detail parts from it. They went into the cab. Being brass I wanted to solder the brake stand to the floor so I extended the apron into the cab. This had to be able to be removed to work on the backhead. This is what I ended up with.

CV_apron&brake_stand

The cab floor had two screw holes in the center section for something (??) so I soldered two screws into the floor for use as studs. Being soldered in I didn't need the screwdriver holes so they were machined off.

Also the backhead is very nicely detailed, especially considering its a mid '90s engine. It got a paint job. Flickering LEDs were added for firebox glow and white LED added for cab light although I may go back to incandescent. I don't care for the light pattern.

Here is a shot of the cab now with curtains thanks to MTH. Window "glass" are plastic microscope cover slips. Figures are Bowser.

CV_Cab2

The engine now runs smooth and slowly. Smoke output matches MTH's. I hope to pull at least ten 18" heavyweights, preferably 12. 

Now to get sound to the tender.

Pete

 

Attachments

Images (2)
Last edited by Norton

So far, so good Pete.

At first glance, I thought this was the silver Commodore, but seeing it's the dark metallic gray one makes this even more interesting. The mods you've done so far - especially the cab - look exquisite, and really make a huge difference on an almost 20 year old locomotive. The scullin disk wheels also look far better than the closed spoked ones.

Last edited by Mikado 4501

Thomas, at least you have a choice on the wheels. You could replace these with actual spoke wheels from the 1990 700E. This is actually built on the Silver frame. I swapped bodies with the intention of selling an upgraded Silver one which came with magnetic couplers, wired tether and RS2. I knew I would be gutting the engine and the silver frame was a better choice. This may be sporting roller bearing rods someday. Mario is working with Shapeways to print metal ones. The CV was built with plain bearings and spoke wheels and later upgraded with Disks and roller bearing rods. i don't think the combination of Disks and plain bearing rods ever existed.

Pete

@Brandy re: pancake motor, see this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...98#75481396439244298

IMO a pancake motor is better suited to the transverse spur-geared locos like the 2036 and 2046.  The work shown in the link above is the first time I've actually seen it done (and the motor used is of unknown quality.)   Lionel LTI did basically the same thing when they introduced the 18606 in 1986, and I wasn't impressed by the performance of those late 1980s 2-6-4's.

For longitudinally-motored locos like the Hudson and B6 switcher, a "gear head" in front of the motor, or some variation as proposed by John Acton above would be a better way of lowering the shaft, and getting it closer to its original position.  If additional gear reduction isn't desired, Pete's use of a double universal joint works great, and he had the skills to make a custom motor mount to hold a Pittman motor at the required angle.

Last edited by Ted S
Norton posted:
JohnActon posted:

Pete, looking at a Pancake motor and how the shaft position would cause the lower edge of the motor to sit too close to any trailing truck has a solution. Back to the pinion and spur gear I was talking about  you could use such an arrangement to  raise the pancake motor up to provide clearance for a trailing truck. Now to get a brushless driver to talk to a R2LC  or R4LC.      J

For a brushless motor don't you just need DC even if its PWM DC? If so a non Cruise DCDR would work or a DCDS Odyssey board with speed sensor should work. Its the motor driver than matters not the radio board. A Back EMF board would not work.

Pete

Pete, I have a RC plane brushless motor that uses an outboard driver board. So it will not run on straight DC. There may be brushless motors that have an onboard driver circuit but the pancake motor shown earlier in this discussion has that multi-conductor ribbon leading out makes me think it uses an outboard driver board and getting a TMCC or Legacy radio to communicate with it might be a stumbling block. Some of the drivers for brushless motors have inputs for pwm but whether or not they will speak the same pwm language as TMCC or legacy pwm is a big question mark in my mind.  If they will this could be a boon as some of these driver boards for coreless, brushless motors can put out 400W that would allow me to install 4 Maxons in my  PS1 Centipede.    I think whether the pwm input for these coreless/ brushless motor driver boards might play well with with TMCC or Legacy pwm frequency is a question that Gunrunner might shed some light on. I did not see any info on these boards with pwm frequency specs.  J

I haven't looked at those with an eye to using them for TMCC, so I can't offer an intelligent opinion on the suitability without more research.   All the brushless motors I used were in aerospace applications, and we used  custom driver circuits for them.

I have not verified this with a scope but believe the PWM is 60 or 120hz. The triacs are triggered by line frequency. If you have a scope or frequency counter on a VOM just put it across the motor terminals.

BTW coreless motors are what should work with TMCC/Legacy. Brushless require special drive circuitry to mimic a commutator.

I admit to confusing the two.

 

Pete

Last edited by Norton

It runs. Still a work in progress but it now runs with most features working with legacy electronics. Owners of Pullmor Hudsons should appreciate how it now runs.

This weekend I  will see how many cars it will pull on the club layout.

To complement the train a Tomar CV drumhead was added to the observation car.

CV_Drum

The engine is running with a Legacy R4LC. Along the way I discovered the R4LC will not communicate with Railsounds 6 boards. It will talk to RS 5.5 boards so for the moment a Railsounds 5.5 board from a NKP Berk is making the sounds. Good sound except for the crew/tower com which does not match this engine. I hope to find a way to talk to the Vision Hudson board, absolutely correct for 5344. I hope I don't have to use an RCMC to accomplish that.

Stay tuned.

 

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)
Videos (1)
CV_M

Pete, I have a couple of locomotives with RS6, both of them use the RCDR, one is an S02 in the Genset, and the other is an S04 in the Lionmaster T1 Duplex.  Apparently, there is some difference in the serial data to the RS6 board.

  mceclip0

Attachments

Images (2)

Thanks guys. John, I have one RCDR from a recent Legacy 0-8-0. It looks like they made many versions of RCDR. This is what I have. I plan to make connectors for it next week and see what serial data looks like.

If anyone wonders why Lionel doesn't offer Legacy upgrade kits here is one reason. There are scores of versions of all the new boards. Gone are the days of an R2LC and DCDR. One size fits all.

 

Pete

Norton posted:
If anyone wonders why Lionel doesn't offer Legacy upgrade kits here is one reason. There are scores of versions of all the new boards. Gone are the days of an R2LC and DCDR. One size fits all.

My take is that they don't want to compete with their high-end locomotives.  The RCMC is universal, just program it up to have a nice assortment of features and you have a Legacy upgrade.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

When I started this project my intent was to make this engine pull a prototypical length named passenger train. To me that means a 12 car minimum to maybe 18 cars. I took this engine to FCTT-Hi Railers modular layout today to test it out. I brought 13 cars with me but the setup siding on this layout only allowed 12 cars with the engine and tender.

Here is the train on the ready track.

Lock_CV_Still

Just getting underway. Complaints of too much smoke (really) made be turn it down later.

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)
Videos (1)
Lock3

Now underway. The engine accelerates rapidly. Only the uneven trackwork keeps it from smooth running as it loses traction on the many dips in the layout. On smooth track typical of a home layout I am pretty confident it could handle 15-16 cars assuming couplers would hold together considering the all diecast tender (including frame) probably weighs as much as three of the cars.

Sorry for the poor video. I have no talent for photography but still trying to learn.

Pete

Attachments

Videos (1)
Lock
Last edited by Norton

Beautifully exicuted, Pete.  Makes me wanna try the same with my Yellow Belly.  As designed,  the old Pulmor can barely handle 5 or 6 heavyweights without maxing out the throttle....and that's with new ERR electronics.  

Still running my B6 with the can motor conversion succesfully.  I recently swapped out its CC in the tender and stuffed CC Lite into the boiler.

Bruce e

Pete,

All this work is fantastic. It’s so amazing to see an already great locomotive made borderline perfect. Excellent smoke, speed control and strength.

Looks like the Pittman mods really proved its worth. I don’t normally pull more than 6 or 7 passenger cars, but I can agree a prototypical consist like that is far more impressive.

I am okay with the RailSounds choice here since the chip doesn’t sound too different from the 6 chime used on the NYC. Added to the fact finding NYC steam RS chips are especially hard...

And Bruce, are your passenger cars still fitted with incandescent bulbs or do they have LED lighting? I have my 18005 scale Hudson pull 6 Lionel heavyweight cars fine when I changed to the LED’s. That being said, changing from Pullmor to can motor also reduces the voltage draw significantly - something I need to do with my Yellowbelly, Vanderbilt, and Mercury 5344. Though with ERR stuff in uncertain future, that could be halted for awhile, but that’s another story...

Rick, That board would have been my first choice for a RS 5.5 board if Lionel offered it but they only show a handful of steam 5.5 boards for sale and most are for articulated engines. I actually used that tender to verify my engine was putting out good serial data from the drawbar as I was only getting silence from the Vision Hudson RS6 board.

I intend to press on until I can use the Vision Hudson Railsounds. I think my best bet is in replacing the R4LC with a RCDR as John points out they will drive RS6. Many trade offs though. I am using the triac on the R4LC to drive the smoke resistor. The RCDR likely requires an AC regulator. I try to avoid those as they are always a problem area I prefer to keep it as simple as possible at least in the electronic side.

This model of 5344 is becoming very much like the prototype in that its a testbed for different ideas.  

I briefy mentioned earlier in the thread that I had acquired a damaged Williams Masterpiece Dreyfuss. One reason was for the roller bearing rods. Being metric they didn't fit the CV but I plan to first install the RCDR and BEMC in this chassis.

Who knows, it may end up under the CV shell yet. Its certainly light years ahead in detail.

image

Pete

Attachments

Images (1)

Matt, its on the back burner now that is summer time. Little time for trains but I will get it to work if I have get an RCMC. I hope I don't have to go that route.

Pete

Pete, Did you try a fit of the Vision Hudson frame under the CV shell? I was going to attempt it this winter.  Thanks!

I didn't Rob. I suspect the body would still have to modified but it would still require less machine work. I have a Gray Vision Hudson I considered doing this with but that would be a much costlier deal. The extra frame and wheels cost me 10 bucks so no worries if I messed up.

Another less expensive option I may have considered if they were available when I started this is one of Smithsonian Hudson Chassis that are showing up on eBay now. That would have the best detail by far.

Thinking back I think one reason I nixed using the Vision chassis is the cylinders would have to be shaved for the body to fit just like Lionel did to the CV chassis.

This is the CV chassis:

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Pete, I over looked this entire thread. Ive always wanted to do exactly what you did. Now. I know it can be done. 

Bruk, Pat aka Harmonyards has a more elegant way to mount the motor, simpler than the way I did it. As for the electronics when I did this Lionel required you send them old RCMCs to get a new one. They would sell you 1st generation Legacy which used a R4LC and I found an early BEMC (actually a 9 bit Cruise M) now NLA. The downside of the Legacy R4LC is it only puts out one 9 bit serial data packet and the newest Legacy lite Railsounds boards require two 9 bit packets to respond. I was hoping to use the RS board from the Vision J1e 5344, perfect since the CV was 5344, but no soap. Maybe someday I will replace the electronics. You will have an opportunity to learn from my mistakes and do it right.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I learned a little about the RS-Lite boards from Jon Z. recently.  Turns out that the reason some of the commands don't work from the R4LC is really because the RS-Lite was made a little dumber and less "automatic"  Stuff like ringing the bell and other commands that "toggle" audio behavior now are sent as two separate and different commands.  This allows the RCMC to control what is happening without having to guess what the sound board is doing.  Makes perfect sense when it's explained.  There is one "brain", and the sound is now just a slave and does what it's commanded to do. 

Add Reply

Post
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×