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I am designing and seeking bids on a garage addition with a second-story project/fun room, which will have a train layout in part of it at first, among other things, and perhaps become an entire train room when my son goes to college.  My contractor has questions that I am unable to answer - primarily, how many amps of service will I need?

On a side note, I saw a post a few years ago where someone made a good suggestion - to have a separate master/relay switch of some kind at the entrance to the room, tied to a separate light, so you can tell definitively and at a glance whether ALL power to ALL transformers, accessories, &C is off when you leave the room for the day.  Also useful when doing electrical work on the layout, I would imagine.

So ... while a more modest layout is planned for now, in the (perhaps dubious) event that I do some day get to build the fantasy layout, I do not want to have to deal with a new circuit box and more amps down the road, but am trying to plan ahead and have it done during the construction phase.  Can anyone suggest how much electrical service would be needed at the high end to run a large 3-rail layout with heavy scale trains and accessories?

And are there any other suggestions out there from those with experience?  Things you either did later, or never did but wished you had thought of at the construction phase?

Many thanks!

David

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David,

   I have a 20X16 U-shaped layout in a 20X30 addition on my garage. I currently run everything on one 20amp outlet with a switch at the entrance door next to the light switch. It includes an MRC Pure Power Dual running DCS, a Type V running 22 Fastrack switches and about 5 operating accessories, and a 300 watt PC power supply for 12 volts DC for building and other lighting. I run up to 4 modern trains with smoke and have no problems. I have 4 other outlets around the room and 6 T8 fixtures , both on separate circuits. If your plans include a garage, 100A service would easily take care of it all. An outlet in the floor would be nice for an island layout. My floor is concrete under the carpet, so I use a 12 gauge extension cord from the switched outlet to a power strip under the layout. I also will have fun changing bulbs in the two center lights; they are directly over the center of each leg of the U. Coulda planned that better.

I ran two 20 amp lines for the layout.  It was probably overkill, but whats the cost to run two wires instead of one?  Minimal at best.  If you run multiple lines from the circuit box for the layout power, make sure all lines are on the same phase.  If not, you won't be able to phase together transformers with the polarized plugs.  I have my room lighting on its own circuit, and the room outlets (not for trains) also on their own circuit.

 

Joe

 If your plans include a garage, 100A service would easily take care of it all.

100 amps wouldn't hurt, but I gotta ask: What would a person use in a garage that requires 100 amps?

Maybe a big compressor?


A few years back, we had some upgraded power run to our garage so we could install a compressor and have some more capacity for 110V tools.
Our compressor is on a 220V, 20 amp line. In addition we have two separate 110V 20 amp lines for general use. We have never tripped a breaker.
The garage door openers and light are on the original garage wiring, so they are separate.

If I was building a garage as you describe, in the train room I think I would have one or more switched circuits with an electronic dimmer for lighting (they could be on one breaker though), and two twenty amp circuits for outlets(two breakers). I would have some always on, and some that were switched.
In the garage, I do something similar again: 20 twenty amp circuits for outlets(separate breakers) and a 220V circuit for a compressor. I think I might go bigger than 20 amps though. I think some of the compressors I looked at needed more amperage.
My son's welder worked on 110V.

Of course you may be planning to put some equipment with heavier power requirements in your garage. For example: air conditioning.

Hmmm - I guess that I'm almost up to the 100 amps that John H. mentioned!




Last edited by C W Burfle
Joe Fermani posted:

I ran two 20 amp lines for the layout.  It was probably overkill, but whats the cost to run two wires instead of one?  Minimal at best.  If you run multiple lines from the circuit box for the layout power, make sure all lines are on the same phase.  If not, you won't be able to phase together transformers with the polarized plugs.  I have my room lighting on its own circuit, and the room outlets (not for trains) also on their own circuit.

 

Joe

Good point, Joe.

Dedicated circuits for layout power on the same phase and a general room circuit, perhaps two. I prefer lighting separated from receptacles.

Put the garage on the opposite phase of the train room.

If you have a wood shop or a welder than 100 amps what you'd want. If you have your garage well lit, run a dust collector, air filter and larger table saw you can be at say 30 amps or a router and shaper table. A welder would use about 20 to 50 amps depending on the welder. My city inspector would not approve of a 50 amp outlet in my garage for a welder. That doesnt mean I cant have one, it just means I cant tell the city

Most home breaker boxes are 100amp or 200amp.  I used the 200amp breaker box in my train building due to a electric water heater and electric A/C / heat pump. All the wiring is 20amp due to it's harder to change wires than it is the change breakers and plug-ins/light switches.  I have one breaker for the layouts transformers, one for lights and 2 for plug-ins (north wall and south wall).

Some HO layouts use a single pole light switch for each of the 3 wires (+ black wire, - white wire and the ground wire) that way lighting can not burn out the DCC 100_1925 transformers. At the bottom right in the picture is the light switches for the room lights and the under the layout lights.

 

 

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David98 posted:

I am designing and seeking bids on a garage addition with a second-story project/fun room, which will have a train layout in part of it at first, among other things, and perhaps become an entire train room when my son goes to college.  My contractor has questions that I am unable to answer - primarily, how many amps of service will I need?

On a side note, I saw a post a few years ago where someone made a good suggestion - to have a separate master/relay switch of some kind at the entrance to the room, tied to a separate light, so you can tell definitively and at a glance whether ALL power to ALL transformers, accessories, &C is off when you leave the room for the day.  Also useful when doing electrical work on the layout, I would imagine.

So ... while a more modest layout is planned for now, in the (perhaps dubious) event that I do some day get to build the fantasy layout, I do not want to have to deal with a new circuit box and more amps down the road, but am trying to plan ahead and have it done during the construction phase.  Can anyone suggest how much electrical service would be needed at the high end to run a large 3-rail layout with heavy scale trains and accessories?

And are there any other suggestions out there from those with experience?  Things you either did later, or never did but wished you had thought of at the construction phase?

Many thanks!

David

David, as a retired master electrician, I was able to do my own electrical from design to completion for my basement Run Room.  I installed a sub panel fed off a 220V breaker in the main panel.  The main purpose of the sub panel was ease of wiring.  Your major load upstairs will be your lighting.  Standard household 15 amp circuits makes wiring easier and more practical for switch wall receptacles.  Switch bottom half of plugs.

See power control wall switches in Run Room (for 6 15A circuits).  Upper switches control can lights.  The lower row of switches controls the bottom of wall plugs that are spaced around the room according to NEC (code).  

40-MiJack1

I'll be happy to go into specifics off line if you wish.

I would think the contractor will follow code for the basic garage needs, whether it includes air conditioning or not and the type of lighting requested.  What the contractor needs are the owner's extra requirements, such as compressors or trains.  I personally would add two additional switched circuits in the train room, preferably 20 amp, with each circuit having outlets placed around the room for future changes.  This would provide some flexibility for what you would want on/off at any one time, maybe help in troubleshooting, and provide plenty of power for future expansion.  I would add a GFCI outlet to each circuit.

David98 posted:

  Can anyone suggest how much electrical service would be needed at the high end to run a large 3-rail layout with heavy scale trains and accessories?

 

A lot less than you think.

Look at it this way, a single 20 amp branch circuit will handle 2400 watts maximum, 1920 watts continuously.  If you expect to have more than 1920 watts of transformers, all running at full load continuously and simultaneously, you will need more than that. 

Having one or two circuits with conveniently located outlets and switches is all you need to worry about. Per CAPPILOT above, tell the electrician what you need in terms of watts and convenience and let him worry about it. I suspect that a single receptacle circuit with the bottom half of each receptacle switched would be more than plenty.  Actually, NEC minimum requirements will probably require you to install more power than the train will ever need! The only thing I would suggest is to provide more outlets than the NEC minimum, which is basically one outlet per 12 running wall feet. 

PLCProf posted:
Look at it this way, a single 20 amp branch circuit will handle 2400 watts maximum, 1920 watts continuously.  If you expect to have more than 1920 watts of transformers, all running at full load continuously and simultaneously, you will need more than that. 

I have a number of Weavers and Lionel engines that run old conventional RailSounds and ProtoSounds 1.0 and a few with QSI's QS2+ sound system, and one or two QS3 engines, in addition to a number with TMCC & RS.  Lots of heavy Weaver and K-line scale passenger cars with lots of small incandescent lights.  What if I wind living the dream some day, with a system wired for TMCC, but also with twenty blocks, so as to run the conventional engines, too, with 20 LW transformers, plus a few old KWs or ZWs to run town lights/accessories?  Then, if friends come over with all-TMCC engines, and we put the conventional engines aside and open up all 20 transformers so as to have consistent TMCC track power at 18 or 20 volts everywhere.  Will all that run off 2 x 20amp circuits and leave a comfortable margin for error so nothing overheats/burns the house down?   (Better to build in excess capacity than operate at the margins, right?)

Thanks again for all the helpful responses to date!

David

You can't go wrong by having too much power available; you needn't use it all.  I'd have a separate breaker box fed from the house main box.  100-amp 240-volt feed to the sub-box would not be too much, especially if you're planning on running HVAC.  If you are planning a large HVAC load, an electrician will have to decide how best to feed it, considering what you've got in your house.  Could there be a future need for a charger for an electric car?

Don't overlook having 2 20-amp 120-volt circuits off the same side of the 240-volt line (for phasing reasons as noted above).  Put 20 amp outlets in the new garage, especially one near the doors.  These should all be GFI protected, either at breaker box or in the first receptacle box thereafter.

When I constructed basements for myself and my sons, I used 6-foot spacing for receptacles; cost is minimal and convenience is enhanced.

Although permitted by codes, do not allow an electrician to use one 3-conductor plus ground to feed two circuits off opposite sides of the 240-volt line.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
C W Burfle posted:

 
100 amps wouldn't hurt, but I gotta ask: What would a person use in a garage that requires 100 amps?

Welder?

A welder is just a big ZW. It drops the 120 volts to about 20 and ups the amperage to over a 100. I did a lot of welding when I was building race car frames with a 120 volt welder on a 20 amp line. 

I'm not talking about using 3-conductor plus ground to allow 3- or 4-way switches. They come off the same side of the 240-volt line.

Several reasons:

1. If in the future someone is moving breaker connections around in the box, both sides could wind up connected to the same leg of the 240, which will overload the neutral conductor. (I've seen this happen.)

2. If there is a failure in the neutral conductor, you will get overvoltages or undervoltages in the circuits, unless both loads were perfectly balanced.

3. Any receptacle box into which the 3-conductor plus ground goes, will have 240 volts in the box.

4. A recommendation was made above to have all receptacles in the train room off the same side of the 240 to make phasing easier,  This is not possible.

Bottom line is that wire is cheap.  What is to be gained other than saving a few bucks?  If you need 240 somewhere, run a dedicated line. 

 

This conversation has been very helpful; thank you.

My project starts with tearing down the garage (mold issues) and rebuilding with a second floor train room to  be added. I plan on using a mini split for heat and AC in the train room and heat in the garage. Also to be explored is a dehumidifier for the train room.

My plan is to include some outlets in the floor under the layout as well as near my anticipated control center.

I’m open to other suggestions and insights.

 Thanks,

Jay

C W Burfle posted:

Although permitted by codes, do not allow an electrician to use one 3-conductor plus ground to feed two circuits off opposite sides of the 240-volt line.

Why is this a bad idea?
When we had some remodeling done in our previous home, some of the ceiling lights were wired this way.

Most of the reasoning, that this wiring method went away had to do with future possibilities.  Move some wires around in the electric panel can double the load on the shared neutral. 

I suggest you write down all the requirements that you will need for that room. Example: Heat/Air ; Outlets (wall Plugs) ; Any large power users that you have in mind like welding, sawing,; then how many transformers and their size as well as the number of ,or length and width of your layout and switches as well as accessories and then your light source with dimming capabilities. A friend of mine was expanding his layout and talked to the power company and they had to install a larger transformer. I suggest you do the same. His local power company initially said his current service was fine but when they came out and saw what he was doing they exclaimed"...You need a larger transformer."

Gary E posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
C W Burfle posted:

 
100 amps wouldn't hurt, but I gotta ask: What would a person use in a garage that requires 100 amps?

Welder?

A welder is just a big ZW. It drops the 120 volts to about 20 and ups the amperage to over a 100. I did a lot of welding when I was building race car frames with a 120 volt welder on a 20 amp line. 

At the time, when the home was all electric, I added (2) 240 volt 20 amp circuits, still there, that powered two 5KW electric heaters.  Worked well for washing the car, or doing most of the shop work, associated with the layout.  Recently the home, after 40 years, had a natural gas pipeline installed.  A natural gas heater was added to the garage.   Comfort and cost are much better. 

David98 posted:

. . . are there any other suggestions out there from those with experience?  Things you either did later, or never did but wished you had thought of at the construction phase?

David

I had an electrician add a 20 amp breaker for a new wall outlet that is used exclusively for the layout.  The lights and other wall outlets (the beverage refrigerator) are on the 20 amp breaker that existed for that room prior to the layout.  It has worked very well.  Nothing else in the room can affect the layout.

If I had the advantage of a whole-house basement, I probably would have added two 20 amp circuits.

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