Post war sprung collector pick ups help needed

If it means anything, when I received the engine a few years back anticipating another layout the sprung collectors were wedged instead of the usual  inverted V, one side was wedged upon the other in at double stacked arrangement. I gently prayed them apart to reposition them correctly. Maybe the metal frame they are mounted to is warped?  So, it seems that one of them is less free moving. The rollers are ok.

anyway, any help, advise appreciated.

You can use a small pair of side cutter pliers and genitally spread the frame between the frame and arm. A small drop of oil on the rivet won't hurt anything either.

Not sure I would do anything "genitally" with a pair of side cutters!! (Sorry Chuck, couldn't resist! )

--gently-- stupid auto correct!

You should be able to remove it to reshape it, clean and lube it. If you get no joy, get a new one from Chuck. part no. 2328-173

I will try spreading reshaping the  frame a bit.

btw, who is chuck?

thanks much.

Leroof posted:

I will try spreading reshaping the  frame a bit.

btw, who is chuck?

thanks much.

The previous person that replied - Chuck Sartor - check his profile by clicking on his forum name when signed in.

NO dice, it just does the same thing. 

On 022's and any cross track the sparks ar furious and the engine goes into e unit stall. At an immense speed periodically it goes through but seems like a physics problem gone wrong! 

Any way, recommendations for a replacement.

btw, why is this acting like this? Any guess or reason why?

its seems really well sprung and durable, but its a mystery to me.

Thanks.

leroof.

its a worn old girl but I just like it and want to run the beast. Lol.

Is there any visible arcing on the axles where the pick-up arm would touch the axle? Can you post a photo of the pick-up truck, bottom side?

Hi Chuck. Just picked up your reply.

I wont be home until late afternoon. Will send photo of pick up truck bottom / sides.

roger that.

thx.

leroof.

On more than one occasion I have run into collector assemblies that had problems with conductivity between the roller and it's axle.
The inside of the roller / axle were so dirty, no electricity would flow.
Sometimes putting a drop of contact cleaner in the crack between the roller and contact arm, followed by spinning the roller with a wire brush would resolve the issue.
Other times the roller had to be physically removed so the axle pin and hole through the roller could be cleaned out.

The way he said it was sparking heavily, it sounds more like a short than just one roller not picking up.

Hi Chuck. I will take the thing apart and spray it with conductive cleaner.

attatched are some photos of the beast and truck.

thanks again. Will follow up after cleaning.

on closer examination there appears a glob of solder connecting the holder mechanism to power wire. Hmmmm.

Also wire brushing and perhaps new rollers too if needed.

The solder glob maybe trying to make  contact with the wheel axle!!! 

NOT good!

clean up soon to happen.

I think you self-discovered your problem. If the wheel axle 'bumps' passing over a crossing or switch, it will short on the axle. The physical condition of the collector assembly looks fine.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I think you self-discovered your problem. If the wheel axle 'bumps' passing over a crossing or switch, it will short on the axle. The physical condition of the collector assembly looks fine.

What Chuck said:

Hmmm. I wanted to rule out what we suspected. See photo. I electrical taped the potential offending area just could I could just see if there was a difference. 

Nope! 

My other Lionel PW beeps have easily moving sprung legs to the rollers.

this gremlin has one side that moves freely, the other not as free. Has a hitch in it's get a long. I tried to pry the frame open a bit thinking it might free it up. What I found out is this part is bullet proof!  Are the replacement parts as durable? Or should I stick to PW part?

anyway, it's an adventure.

The replacement part should be the same as post war, MPC geeps used the same part..

Marty

Are you sure that solder lug and wire are not too close to the axle?

Chuck, thanks. 

On Sunday ( my only free time opportunity)  I will desolder the lug , maybe move it away more, and resolder  it. 

But the spring ain't right....lol

more on this Sunday.

Btw, runs great on straight and curved track. 

Over 022's and cross track the train either E unit cycles neutral, or does the cha cha cha forward backward spastic like.  

I think the leg that doesn't move smoothly may be the culprit. But electrical interferences must be solved. In total agreement.

Position your engine on the switch (power off), get down on the floor (or eye level if you have an actual layout) and stick a flashlight in there to see what's hitting. About 80% of the time, you can physically see the problem!

Most often, I will run the engine up to the switch very slowly, then when it shorts, cut the power and take a look at what's hitting what. Of course we're talking conventional engines here - not sure I would do that last part with a lot of electronics in the engine.

Because of my need for eyeglasses, I will sometimes place my camera where it is looking between the engine and the switch, then take a few snaps. Then blow them up on the computer to get a really good look. 

You can also flip the engine over while held at eye level, then lay a spare switch upside down on the wheels, and roll the switch back and forth, all the while looking into the area of the contact roller, while holding a flashlight with your 3rd hand to really get a good look. Can you see any misalignment of the roller, or if it's hitting any outside rail parts?

George

Leroof posted:

Chuck, thanks. 

On Sunday ( my only free time opportunity)  I will desolder the lug , maybe move it away more, and resolder  it. 

But the spring ain't right....lol

more on this Sunday.

After looking at the truck photos again, there appears to solder near the hinge point on the forward facing arm.

Another thought occurred to me, I wonder if the bad solder job had a point that is through the insulator pad?

lastly, the bouncing could come from the uncoupler button hanging too low and possibly enough play to move it into the collector. The roller has an extra wide pattern on it.

Just take the collector off. Desolder the area near the hinge with the hot iron and some braid. Desolder the wire and solder the wire properly. Check the coupler for front/back movement.

I don't understand what you guys are talking about.
The axles should not move around more than a couple of thousands of an inch (if that).
The solder tab, which is part of the collector base, should not be moving around either. The insulation plate has lugs to hold it in a specific location on the truck, and to hold the collector assembly in the correct spot.
So how is the solder tab coming into contact with the axle?

A reproduction 2328-173 collector assembly is $7.00 from Train Tender
A 2328-170 collector insulation is $1.00.
If you replace the collector, get a fresh insulation plate too.


Also, when the part was originally assembled, the collector insulation  formed an insulating washer between the head of the screw and the collector assembly. If that is flawed, be certain to put a fiber washer under the head of the screw.
I often cut that formed washer off to separate the collector insulation from the collector assembly.

(maybe you just need a new insulation plate or a fiber washer)

Are the replacement parts as durable? Or should I stick to PW part?

I have not seen any issues with the reproduction 2328-173 collector assemblies I've handled.

There is a paradox on this one: If the engine is a collector grade piece, I'd look for an original. But if an engine needs a new collector assembly, what are the chances that it would be in that condition?

Where the pick up wire is soldered to the tab of the pick up, you should put about 1" long piece of shrink tubing to protect it from shorting on anything...

Marty

Hi Chuck, Martin, George, Carl, and C.W. Burfle.

Lots of good maybe useful info.

research into this problem is blossoming!

thanks, will run battery of tests Sunday.

2328 progress report.

I placed a home made plastic insulating washer under the head of the screw to old insulating plate that holds the contact legs, under closer examination I found a thin metal washer there not a fiber one! 

I re soldered the lug now without a glob tempting the axle for an electrical challenge. 

I took off the electric tape I used to rule out shorting on the lug and the sprung collector legs. 

I checked clearance of uncoupler buttons. OK.

At track level, I visulized the sprung  legs on the switches and cross tracks in slow motion pushing and pulling loco by hand. There seems to be a lot of springy action as there are level changes. However The track And switches are not yet  screwed to the homosote. There is movement up and down on the cross tracks. So I manually held them down for stability while running loco. I will fasten track switches and cross track after a decision is made where speciality track will reside.

I am happy to report the following.

less sparking, loco at a decent speed dialed in on ZW 8 to 10 volts, no problems traversing 022's . Only one of the older Lionel 90  degree crossing is causing a lot of springing action, e unit mishagos electrical confusion. I will set in a new K line cross track I have on hand after fitting in four custom cut spacers additions. The new 90 cross track is a bit shorter on all four sides. Should solve that issue.

It is my down and dirty runner  that cost me all of $65, who knows where she's been all her life. All I know is that  Burlington runs again here and now with a little help from my friends.

shes old, worn, noisy, but runs the postwar rails she was designed to once again.

thank you everyone. 

Leroof.

leroof,

congrats on getting the venerable worker operating again. The only other thing to reduce issues is to clean the wheels. They had some hard earned crud built up on them. (the photos provided make this clear) This will cause a lot of sparking.

A rotary tool with a wire brush is the easiest, but some fine sand paper will work. Then, an alcohol wipe.

The crud prevents a good contact with the common rails.

Good move on trying a new crossover.

Keep 'em running!

Hey Carl,   A well needed Wheel cleaning weekend will be coming up.

thanks for the advice. They all need some shine you are right.