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UPDATE 1/31/20: If you care or want to see how fixing my ZW worked out, go to the end of this thread.....

 

 

Hi- I am relatively new to using an original, postwar,  ZW transformer. I purchased one on this forum from a member who said all of the functions are operating properly. When I went to hook it up today, I noticed the following:

1-One side powers the train just fine (terminals A and U hooked up). However, the power always seems to be "on" at the track, meaning, the lights in the passenger cars are always on, even when the ZW lever is pulled as far back as it can go. When I push the ZW lever forward, the train runs just fine.

2- The power on the other side (terminals D and U) does nothing when hooked up. I have replaced a good existing transformer on this line of track which works fine and still operates this track fine after the ZW is removed, so it is not the train, track, etc.

3- I have tried powering this known good track/train using terminals B and U and C and U and they do not work either.

4- The power light bulb works and always stays on as soon as the transformer is plugged in.

Am I doing something wrong or missing something obvious??

I am pretty familiar with electronics, so I am wondering what I should look for when I take the transformer apart and/or what I can do inside to make the non-functioning terminals work.

Any suggestions or ideas?? Thank you so much in advance. I appreciate it!!

Last edited by GZ
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Remove the lid and look at the common (U) post bus bar....the studs that are riveted to that bus bar are known to pop away from the brass strip. If they are, there are simple repair studs available with studs at both ends to spin a nut on the back side and lock it down to the bus bar strip......

as far as the throttle not turning off all the way, look at the arm for that particular throttle lever, and see if it’s coming all the way off the coil when set all the way back. .....hope all that helps........Pat

Rex K posted:

I would contact the seller and tell him your situation and get a partial refund.

I would rather fix it myself. I fully understand that when I am buying a 50-60 year old item, it is subject to not working, despite what the seller states. Also, it could have worked fine when he tested it but having been shipped half way across the country, something happened. I don't know.

I have been around old stuff my whole life and know that if its old, it needs work or will need work. 

Part of the fun of collecting old things is working on them and making them work right. Learning how to make an old item work is part of the fun and rewarding. If you don't want to work on old things, collect something new that you can return to the manufacturer. 

Last edited by GZ
harmonyards posted:

Remove the lid and look at the common (U) post bus bar....the studs that are riveted to that bus bar are known to pop away from the brass strip. If they are, there are simple repair studs available with studs at both ends to spin a nut on the back side and lock it down to the bus bar strip......

as far as the throttle not turning off all the way, look at the arm for that particular throttle lever, and see if it’s coming all the way off the coil when set all the way back. .....hope all that helps........Pat

Thanks for the tips. I appreciate it. When I get some time I'll open it up and see what's going on.

Any other tips??

Thanks!!!

GZ posted:
I would rather fix it myself. I fully understand that when I am buying a 50-60 year old item, it is subject to not working, despite what the seller states. Also, it could have worked fine when he tested it but having been shipped half way across the country, something happened. I don't know.

I have been around old stuff my whole life and know that if its old, it needs work or will need work. 

Part of the fun of collecting old things is working on them and making them work right. Learning how to make an old item work is part of the fun and rewarding. If you don't want to work on old things, collect something new that you can return to the manufacturer. 

I think you have a great attitude, GZ, and I bet, especially with input on this Forum, that you will fix your ZW so it works great.

There a couple of defects that could prove to be fatal to the ZW.  The transformer coil is tapped by running spring copper arms with carbon rollers across the windings. If the carbon rollers wore out and were not replaced, the copper arm would drag across the windings. In time this situation can result in the windings being cut with the copper arm being dragged across them.   I know on only one person to ever rewind the ZW transformer, and that was a long time ago.  

There is no over current protection for shorts between A, B, C, or D circuits.   I have seen where the control arms and windings have been annealed because of high current shorts that were not interrupted. There is really nothing that can be done once the windings are overheated like this.

Your description of the transformer not shutting off, could be caused by worn out rollers allowing the control arms hitting each other. A quick look in will provide a lot of information.  

I just gave away two ZWs because the newly manufactured ZWs are far superior to the postwar ones and better for the electronics in the newly produced engines.  When the 50 year old ZWs were the ONLY ones out there and you had no choice BUT to fix them, you did.  Consider that those old ZWs would never be UL approved, have slow circuit breakers, the output is inconsistent for modern electronics and are a potential fire hazard, well  I wanted them gone.

The recipient of the ZWs signed a waiver that explained the potential risks and his acceptance of those risks of using 50 year old transformers.

I know there are  are a lot of old ZWs still in use and the thrill of getting one fixed up but it's like using heliarc plasma weider to solder 22 ga wires instead of a 20 watt iron. Not the best choice.

Train Nut posted:
Judd posted:

Why would a pure 60hz sine wave be inconsistent with modern electronics?

It's not, you just need to add the proper protection.

Yeah - there are those on this forum that are unnecessarily alarmist (or dare I say religious) and try hard to justify spending hundreds on a shiny new transformer when common sense and a few bucks of TVS diodes and circuit breakers alleviate all reasonable concerns.

Judd posted:

I realize that. But I keep reading about not using the old ac transformers with the modern trains.

That sentiment is 100000000% false and perpetuated by those who do not (or choose not) to understand the electrical concepts at play. Let us not hijack this thread any further, but those in the "know" encourage all transformers (modern or not) add external TVS diodes and properly sized breakers, all which can be researched further on this forum, or you can start a new thread with your own questions.

okay use the 50 odd year old non UL approved transformer. ALARMIST VIEW?  WHEN the fire in your house is traced to that device good luck with your insurance carrier.

And be sure to tell the Claims Dept that you have been using the non-UL approved device without an issue for the last 25 years; then watch as they "upgrade" your policy.

Last edited by AlanRail
AlanRail posted:

okay use the 50 odd year old non UL approved transformer. ALARMIST VIEW?  WHEN the fire in your house is traced to that device good luck with your insurance carrier.

And be sure to tell the Claims Dept that you have been using the non-UL approved device without an issue for the last 25 years; then watch as they "upgrade" your policy.

Interesting, electronic devices need to be UL approved in order for the insurance company to cover a claim? Hmm, I'd love to see where it says that in the policy, and I wonder how the arbitrator would rule? You do know that UL is an independent testing company and not a government body. Even today, it is not a law to meet UL guidelines. There are many other competitors to UL today as well. The new Lionel ZWL is listed by ETL, not UL.

Also, do transformers catch fire when they are not plugged in? Wouldn't a UL approved power strip with an off switch prevent any unattended fire? Further, you can definitely start a fire even with a UL approved transformer. You should always have a fire extinguisher near your layout.

George 

AlanRail posted:

okay use the 50 odd year old non UL approved transformer. ALARMIST VIEW?  WHEN the fire in your house is traced to that device good luck with your insurance carrier.

And be sure to tell the Claims Dept that you have been using the non-UL approved device without an issue for the last 25 years; then watch as they "upgrade" your policy.

You really didn't research that statement after making it up!!

 

Train Nut posted:
AlanRail posted:

okay use the 50 odd year old non UL approved transformer. ALARMIST VIEW?  WHEN the fire in your house is traced to that device good luck with your insurance carrier.

And be sure to tell the Claims Dept that you have been using the non-UL approved device without an issue for the last 25 years; then watch as they "upgrade" your policy.

You really didn't research that statement after making it up!!

 

He really didn't!

-There has been no documented instance of a ZW causing a house fire.
-There is no exclusion on a homeowners policy about appliance selection.
-There is no endorsement available to include operation of antique appliances to upcharge a premium.

AND, my Sunbeam Radiant Heat toaster that sits on the counter is older than my ZW. If you plug it in the wrong way, you get a shock from the housing. They were built that way.

ADCX Rob posted:
Train Nut posted:
AlanRail posted:

okay use the 50 odd year old non UL approved transformer. ALARMIST VIEW?  WHEN the fire in your house is traced to that device good luck with your insurance carrier.

And be sure to tell the Claims Dept that you have been using the non-UL approved device without an issue for the last 25 years; then watch as they "upgrade" your policy.

You really didn't research that statement after making it up!!


AND, my Sunbeam Radiant Heat toaster that sits on the counter is older than my ZW. If you plug it in the wrong way, you get a shock from the housing. They were built that way.

That's to really get you going in the morning!  😂

Can a 15/16 volt old transformer of 40 to 100 watts cause a fire ?  For how many years does the UL seal apply ?

I just looked at about 15  transformers in my current inventory.  All Marx transformers (729 in photo), prewar and postwar, have the UL seal.

  IMG_3004

None of my Lionel transformers have the UL seal, from the oldest, a cast iron type K to my newest, the RW.  Of the American Flyer, a prewar 75w 1250 has an older format UL seal. 

IMG_3001IMG_3002

A postwar 22004 has UL formed into the bottom plate, but a 15B has no sign of UL, nor does a 1289.

IMG_2998IMG_2999IMG_3003

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mlaughlinnyc posted:

Can a 15/16 volt old transformer of 40 to 100 watts cause a fire ?  For how many years does the UL seal apply ?

 

Yes, a short in a 15v 40 watt transformer can cause a fire. Remember, the transformer is hooked up to 120V 15amp power minimum. That circuit can theoretically handle 1800 watts before tripping the breaker. I had a derailed train that I didn't catch very fast. It didn't throw my fast acting breaker for some reason. When I went over to put the car back on the track, smoke was rising! No fire, but left long enough, I am sure there would be.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use your transformer. Any transformer can do it. Yes, new ones have fast acting breakers, but folks here have advised to install those. With older transformers, you just need to make sure they are still mechanically and electrically sound. Don't use transformers with rotted or frayed power cords for example.

George

I ran my 12x32 5 track mountain cottage shelf operation as 5 power districts from 3 pw ZWs, (throttles: AUx3, DUx2) from '92 to '00/01 when replaced with 5 180 watt P0HOs . The Districts were monitored by 0-30 range VAC and 0-15 AAC 2% variation panel meters. On one district where I ran two,double-headed very long incandescent lighted passenger trains, occasionally after a time, the 10 amp rated fuses would blow at 10-11 amp load or, about 180-90 watts. I owned 5 pw ZWs over time and never saw one produce over 10-11 maximum amps under load. Current surges can change the railpower environment, but the published high wattage rating on the pw ZW is input not output.

On all the other mostly freight Districts they were fused with 7 amp and never blew unless a derailment occurred. Anyway, I quickly grew to favor the 180 watt PoHos with the comparatively quick acting breaker and fixed 18 VAC. 

 

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon

I restore and drive original Model T and A Fords thousands of miles a year, all over the country. So when it comes to the  ZW transformer, something tells me with minimal common sense,  I should be able to operate it without burning down the neighborhood!!

Do some of you guys wear helmets when you operate your model trains??!!

 

Last edited by GZ
George S posted:
mlaughlinnyc posted:

Can a 15/16 volt old transformer of 40 to 100 watts cause a fire ?  For how many years does the UL seal apply ?

 

Yes, a short in a 15v 40 watt transformer can cause a fire. Remember, the transformer is hooked up to 120V 15amp power minimum. That circuit can theoretically handle 1800 watts before tripping the breaker. I had a derailed train that I didn't catch very fast. It didn't throw my fast acting breaker for some reason. When I went over to put the car back on the track, smoke was rising! No fire, but left long enough, I am sure there would be.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use your transformer. Any transformer can do it. Yes, new ones have fast acting breakers, but folks here have advised to install those. With older transformers, you just need to make sure they are still mechanically and electrically sound. Don't use transformers with rotted or frayed power cords for example.

George

One other precaution that I take is to never leave an old transformer plugged in when I leave my basement.

Do not go getting OSHA involved!  We will all be wearing hardhats, or bump caps, when working under the layout table!  Wearing high viz vests any time in the train room, tied off to an overhead lifeline when working on top of the layout, have the construction of layout supports certified by a structural engineer.  Oh, how about the need for material submittals and QC verification before put to use?  That would be only the beginning...…..  Common sense when doing anything with our trains, in any format, should be second nature.  But, still, it is the greatest to have comments and suggestions of others available through this format, information, to assist any and all who ask.

Jesse    TCA

Tinplate Art posted:

I employ a Monster home theatre grade surge protector on my Z-4000 and surge protectors on the outputs to the track. NO problems to date.

I have surge protectors installed on my electrical panels then again on power strips. I put them on my panels, because a nearby lightning strike took out a bunch of low voltage stuff in my home, including my doorbell transformer and intercom that were hardwired to the electrical system. Pretty much anything without a surge protector got nailed. 

They won’t stop every fire causing situation, but will save your equipment.

George

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