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Okay, this one has me stumped...

I've got this F3 which I have recently acquired. Initially, it was sparking like crazy. I gave the locomotive a nice service and it runs well, but still sparks like you wouldn't believe. At that point, I replaced the rollers (2023-43) as well as the collector springs (622-145/6). This has not made reduced the sparking at all, and may have actually increased it. Additionally, the track is clean clean clean. Not sure what else could be the issue... any thoughts appreciated.

Last edited by bmoran4
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If you are talking about sparking where the rollers hit the third rail, that is caused by the electric current jumping the gap between the roller and the third rail (arcing).  Here are my thoughts:

1)If it is happening only on certain parts of the track, especially if it is tubular track, it could be there is a flat spot or depression in the third rail at those spot(s) where the roller "jumps" over the depression.  Other engines may or may not have a problem, they all vary in how high they are off the rails, etc...but if they have it, too, in the same area, might be that.

2)I don't know what kind of track you have, but post war trains had pretty deep flanges. Some types of rail are more shallow that traditional O/O27 track, and it is possible that the flange is hitting the ties and "lifting it up" just enough to cause arcing. Not as likely a cause, but not knowing the track type it is possible this is a factor.

3)It could be for whatever reasons, on that particular engine the bottom of the power truck is higher off the track level then typical engines (it is riding higher/thinner, etc). That would even with the spring loaded rollers it is having trouble making contact. To fix this:

   -One way, not sure I recommend this, would be to try and bend the arms that the roller is on down gentley, maybe use something as a lever to bend it down.

 

  -Probably better way would be to take the rollers off, and put small washers between the roller assemble and the bottom of the power truck (fiber/plastic would be better). See if that makes it better, it may be you have to experiment with the depth of the washer to get it right. 

 

 

 

 

 

@bigkid, I'm using tubular track, and there isn't a particular section where it misbehaves - it misbehaves on the entire trackage. I've got a 2343 F3 that operates just fine on the same track. I have played around with bending the pickups but it does not improve the situation, and at an extreme, it bottoms out and causes a short against the bushings. As for the truck power sitting too high or whatnot, it isn't readily perceptible.

I would try the washers between the roller assembly and the power truck and see if that works. The only other thing I could think of is the engine is drawing a lot more current then it should be, and that is causing the arcing. When you bought the engine, did you take it apart and check things like the gearing and if it has fresh lube and isn't binding? Is the commutator on the engine clean and does it have good brushes? If the engine is binding because of the gearing being poorly lubed (old grease kind of hardens up) or not meshing right, that will cause it to draw more current than it otherwise would. You could put an ammeter on output of the transformer when the engine is running and compare what it is drawing versus another engine that is fine.  I wouldn't be surprised if you took it apart you might see old grease in the gears that mess with the worm gear off the engine. 

 

 

@bigkid, my servicing of the locomotive did not affect the sparking. My service included removing the worm shaft and bearings and applying red and tacky. I also applied red and tacky to the horizontal motor gearing. I filled the horizontal motor oil reservoir with Labelle 107. I cleaned the commutators, brush wells and such with cotton swabs and CRC 2-26.

At your recommendation, I took fresh amp readings. Current draw for the 2356 in question pulls 3.75 amps - the reference 2343 pulls 4.00 amps.

bmoran4 posted:

@bigkidI filled the horizontal motor oil reservoir with Labelle 107...

That's actually a lubricant reservoir(I use a syringe and Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2, injecting it into the motor with a syringe while the motor is running. I push it in until it just starts to come out both shaft ends). The Labelle will run out and cause a mess, possibly interrupting the chassis/ground electrical connection adding to your sparking issue.

On the sparking issue alone, are the roller pins clean?  You may want to lube them with the very thinnest of conductive grease,

If you have a similar diesel, switch the pickup assemblies as a test and see if the issue follows the engine or the pickups.

You could also run a single wire tether from the dummy pickups to eliminate the arcing,

I have a 2333 that has been arcing like this for me for over 50 years, and it gets run a lot... it still has the original wide roller pickups too - I just let it spark as it's never posed a problem.

Last edited by ADCX Rob

@ADCX Rob, I've never had an issue with filling the reservoir with the Labelle product on my other horizontal motors and this one does not seem to "leak". The rollers, old originals and now the new ones are and were clean and were lightly lubricated with CRC 2-26.

I may try switching pickup assemblies and see what the results are.

I am definitely not going to perform a hokey hack of running a wire from the dummy - there should be a proper fix - identifying it is they key.

As for letting it arc, I understand that will cause pitting on the rollers and track and none of my other pre/postwar locomotives (40+ gee - maybe I should do an inventory and actually count) behave like this.

ADCX Rob posted:
bmoran4 posted:

@bigkidI filled the horizontal motor oil reservoir with Labelle 107...

That's actually a lubricant reservoir(I use a syringe and Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2, injecting it into the motor with a syringe while the motor is running. I push it in until it just starts to come out both shaft ends). The Labelle will run out and cause a mess, possibly interrupting the chassis/ground electrical connection adding to your sparking issue.

On the sparking issue alone, are the roller pins clean?  You may want to lube them with the very thinnest of conductive grease,

If you have a similar diesel, switch the pickup assemblies as a test and see if the issue follows the engine or the pickups.

You could also run a single wire tether from the dummy pickups to eliminate the arcing,

I have a 2333 that has been arcing like this for me for over 50 years, and it gets run a lot... it still has the original wide roller pickups too - I just let it spark as it's never posed a problem.

I had a F3 that would slow as in ran. It also sparked a lot. Found the issue when I picked it up once day and the pickup roller was hot. Corrosion builds up on the inside of the roller and pin. I would change them. Although, On some engines it may be able to remove and clean then easily.

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER
shawn posted:

I had a F3 that would slow as in ran. It also sparked a lot. Found the issue when I picked it up once day and the pickup roller was hot as hell. Corrosion builds up on the inside of the roller and pin. I would change them. Although, On some engines it may be able to remove and clean then easily.

As stated above in the initial post, the rollers were replaced with new clean rollers.

An interesting discussion. Other points of high resistance, like a dirty roller pin, should reduce the current and reduce the arcing at the roller/center rail interface. The cause of arcing at the OD of the roller has to be limited to just a few causes. Excess current, low spring tension resulting in light contact pressure at the roller, contamination of the roller or center rail surface, rough or irregular roller or center rail, or roller is out of round. The roller material might also make a difference, I would have to think about that for while. Lionel did use different material for rollers used on one motor as opposed to two motor locomotives.   I do not know when they dropped that or if there was any way to tell the different rollers with the same dimensions apart.  I think if it was my problem I would look at the collector spring tension first. Not easy to do since what you are looking for is spring tension when the collector is on the center rail. Good luck. If you find anything please let us know. 

BMORAN is correct that there has to be a root cause for the sparking. There have been several good suggestions. I have an inherited set of 2353's and they were poor runners from the day I got them in 1968.  They mostly sat in storage until 1990 when I had a small layout. They sparked like crazy.

I tried most of the same things BMORAN did. No luck. We moved and I didn't have an operating layout until 2009. I tried again. They still sparked and the rollers got really hot.  Cleaning, new grease, cleaning the e-unit -- nothing stopped the sparking. When I disassembled one of the power trucks I discovered that one of the shafts with the gear on it that meshes with the worm gear was slightly bent.  I still haven't ordered the part, but will do so when my layout is finished. I'll put on new rollers and replace this part to see if that stops the sparking. Perhaps there is something causing excessive resistance in the drive train or truck bearings that is adding resistance and stressing the motors.

In the meantime, I picked up a set of Williams F3's which effortlessly glide around the layout with 8 aluminum cars in tow. I do miss the growlers and ozone, though.

 

 

Last edited by Trainfun

Here are a couple of thoughts. You replaced the rollers, what material are they made of? I have found the older sinter iron spark more that ones turned and machined. Also you could solder a flexible wire jumper from the bottom of the pick-up arms to the solder lug on the plate casting on the underside. This would also help greatly. And if you already haven't, polish the roller pin with some fine sandpaper. And anytime you get a locomotive or car where the roller rides on it's own axle, add a very small drop of oil to the ends. But not on the ones that the roller rides on a stationary axle.

Last edited by Chuck Sartor

I just replaced the whole pick up assembly. This did not reduce the sparkling. That rules out a collector issue. I then unsoldered and resoldered every connection. Additionally, I cleaned the e-unit fingers and drum with CRC 2-26. I also removed the brush plates again and did another pass at cleaning the commutators, brush wells and such to no avail. No change in sparkling. Very frustrating as this isn't the typical occasional sparking, but constant impressive sparking.

I might suggest a bench test with both trucks off the ground, to see what voltage each one starts at, and if there is a noticeable difference of speed.  If there is a large difference between them, then one of the motor drive train is not right, and the locomotive will have a tendency to want to derail if one runs much easier than the other.

Since you have eliminated everything else, I would suggest trying the fiber washer idea between the roller assembly and the bottom of the truck and see what that does, it is an easy enough thing to try. If it doesn't work easy enough to roll back, and maybe putting a bit of a gap will make the rollers contact the rail more. I did a search on the forum and arcing/sparking between the pickup rollers and the track seems to be one of the more common topics , even more than people wondering when trains are going to become cheaper, made in the US, not have so many defects, die or not die, etc *lol*. It seems like sometimes there are engines that simply love to spark, the way my pretty boy numbskull dog seems to revel in finding things to bark at

My experience with my 2343 diesels is fine the rollers do not spark on the other hand my prewar 251E and 253 electric sparked a lot and would spark quite a but and become extremly hot just after a few minutes of running .

What i did was slightly bend the copper strip pickup assembly so the rollers would not right so downward on the middle rail to my suprise the sparking went away and after 45 minutes the rollers were not hot at all . Now it could have been in my case the roller assembly was bent down by someone in the past that i do not know but it is fixed.

On yours the only thing i can think of since you have tried most everything else that you may or may not have done is replace the brush well springs and try to have the rollers actually have "less" downward pressure on the rail just "slightly" less pressure to see if that makes a difference if possible with yours.

 

  It's your roller material, and or track/track connection is dirty. 

  Bettering you connections might help, but in my experience the title of Ole Sparky simply changes hands over time anyhow. The issue usally fades for me over a few weeks/months....and then returns one day, lol. 

Pressure per square inch is VERY important for a small electrical connection. The more pressure the easier electrons travel over the connection. Make sure the axle is swedged tight too.

  If you just replaced the roller, it my need break in time too. I only oil a new roller if I feel there might be some resistance there. Any major blackness and it gets a flush. Oil is more likely to cause connection weakness. It forms a layer between metals, but usually the lube benefits can easily outweigh the minor connection loss.  

 

@Adriatic - Following the post from the beginning, you will see that the track and trucks have been tended to, that I have cycled through 2 pick up assemblies, 3 sets of springs (2 original, 1 new), 3 sets of rollers (2 original, 1 new) in addition to super servicing and now adding the additional pickup lead. I'm not using oil to lubricate/clean the rollers, but CRC 2-26 which is marketed specifically to improve electrical connections. I've used this on all my engines (40+) and has not been an issues (and don't necessarily suspect it is an issue now). I appreciate all the thorough input on the forum here and I will continue to update as I work through this locomotive.

Next is replacing the original but not worn out brushes with new ones (once I locate my stash). If that dosen't work, I may have to order brush springs as I don't think I have those in stock. After that, I think I do have another set of horizontal motors to service and install to see if that makes a difference.

Part of the fun of postwar O Gauge trains is that they are high quality toys which were designed to be serviced! Imagine if today's manufacturers of widgets were designed and manufactured to the standards of these toy trains from the early 50's!

You mentioned that you have a 2343 that runs fine. Would it be possible to move the 2343 rollers and pickups to the problem engine and see if it still sparks? That would clearly eliminate the pickups and rollers as the source of the sparking (though your previous work seems to have done that).

If the rollers/pickups are OK, then the problem is in the truck axles or gears providing too much rolling resistance or in one of the motors (or both if a maintenance item, but you seem to have covered most of those).

Though it would involve soldering, if the pickups are not the issue (as it seems from your previous replacements), then you could move one power truck from the 2343 to the problem loco. If that stops the sparking, you have isolated the problem truck/motor assembly. If the sparking continues, replace the other power truck/motor assembly. That should definitely isolate the problem to one power truck/ motor assembly. (From the amperage readings you recorded my guess is that the resistance is coming from an issue with the truck bearings or gears. I do recall that the long shaft with the gear goes into the end housing with the ball {it is there?} a certain way. Some of the more adept repair technicians might be able to help with this.)

If the trucks check out fine, at that point, you could remove the motor from the 2343 truck (which is working fine) and try it on the problem truck to isolate whether it is a truck or motor item. If the problem is in the truck, the easiest thing might be to pick up another truck assembly at a train show. If it is a motor problem, changing the brushes might help. You could also pick up another motor at a train show.

This is a huge amount of work, but I think it would allow you to isolate the problem and get to a solution.

Good luck!

 

Last edited by Trainfun

Well, you've tried almost everything else, so humor me on this one. I assume "Sparky" has a horn, and therefore a horn relay. Disconnect the horn relay and give it a run. Shouldn't be much effort, and it will eliminate the possibility of back EMF being the culprit - it is just barely possible your horn relay could be defective in some way, causing all this trouble.

@Adriatic posted:

  It's your roller material, and or track/track connection is dirty. 

  Bettering you connections might help, but in my experience the title of Ole Sparky simply changes hands over time anyhow. The issue usally fades for me over a few weeks/months....and then returns one day, lol. 

Pressure per square inch is VERY important for a small electrical connection. The more pressure the easier electrons travel over the connection. Make sure the axle is swedged tight too.

  If you just replaced the roller, it my need break in time too. I only oil a new roller if I feel there might be some resistance there. Any major blackness and it gets a flush. Oil is more likely to cause connection weakness. It forms a layer between metals, but usually the lube benefits can easily outweigh the minor connection loss.  

 

"Ole Sparky"? Really bad attempt at humor, IMHO. One of the most bizarre and horrifying devices ever made!

Mr. Moran, you have my empathy. I had this problem with a #2032 Erie AA a long time ago, but replacing the rollers worked for me.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that your #2356 is a double-motored unit. Is it possible/likely that there could be some type of resistance between the two motors that is causing or adding to the spark problem? 

@flhr05 posted:

bmoran4, I know this thread is from a couple years ago, but did you find out the problem. I have a 2354 doing the same thing and was hoping to find a resolution. 

Thanks,..

This is an old thread revival. Unfortunately, I have not found a satisfactory solution as of yet and so I just have lived with it, limiting their run time until I decide again to tackle this. Not sure what that will involve as I have done quite a bit of throwing parts at it already, but like others have advised, I may start disconnecting everything and then one by one connect things up and see if I can narrow the sparking to the inclusion of a specific component (a motor, e-unit, horn relay and so on).

I don't immediately recall if I have checked these for loose motor field rivets, that is another possibility.

Last edited by bmoran4

Oxidation, residue from cigarette smoke or a fire, some other foreign substance on the wheel treads?  I had a 249 or 250 Scout (can't remember which) that sparked horribly when it was new and would hesitate to run.  Out of frustration I lubricated it thoroughly, and then ran it fast on a wide-radius loop for an hour, every day for about a week!  I guess this burnished the wheels, rollers, commutator, etc.  The sparking was greatly reduced and it ran reliably with "normal" sparking after that.

EDIT: A few more things you could check... Make sure it's wired per factory specs.  (Dual-motored locos like this will run with both armatures wired in series, and both fields in series.  I've heard of them being wired this way either deliberately or by accident.)  I would also measure the resistance of all six armature coils, and both field coils.  Compare them to the default values in Hannon's book.  If something is grossly out of spec one motor will probably start and run at a different speed than the other.  Finally the brushes... did someone install those high-resistance brushes that are meant for modern Lionels?  NOT a substitute for postwar old stock!  Good luck in your search, please let us know what you find!

Last edited by Ted S

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