Power Problems in House

You might see if there is a private company that could monitor your power for a reasonable cost.

 

Alternatively, you could buy a constant voltage transformer for your  trains.  These are also called resonant transformers.  Sola used to make them.

 

Another alternative is to get a UPS for the trains.  

 

 

I am sure there are a lot smarter guys than me who can chime in here, but this sounds like some sort of intermittent connection or poor ground.  

 

Have you, or some one like an electrician checked the panel for intermittents, and or loose connection?

 

Not to be an alarmist, but this is not normal, and could be a sign of more serious things such as something shorting or arcing.

 

Not sure I would wait for the power company.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

 

 

It will be my next step.  I missed an opportunity when we had a complete outage overnight a couple of weeks ago.  It would have been an ideal time to check all the house connections.  I am thinking of cutting the seal on the meter, and taking it out to check the connections safely.  I asked the power company to help me with this, but got no where, again.

May be a loose or bad connection outside where you power comes in from the road and connects to the mast head (if your house is feed via "aerial") on your house or in your main service panel. My understanding is that a loose/corroded/ "neutral" can cause this?  You may want to call a qualified electrician to get this corrected.

 

Jeff 

If you have checked your breaker panel, and are sure all wires are tight and nothing is corroded or loose, then the problem is probably outside the house. I had the same problem years ago, and I had a long wooden stick that i used to tap the connection feeding my house. The lights flickered, and I knew the problem was at that connection point. I called the electric company, and they repaired it. Fast forward to today. A number of months ago I lost power to half my house. I have 220 volts coming in, so half the house is on either line coming in. There is no loose connection here. I called the electric company and they would not service me. The thing I did, and you may need to do, is to write a formal complaint to your states' Public Service Commission. They will investigate the lack of service that you should be getting, and contact your local power company to expedite the service and repair. Even now, after a complaint filed and a few calls from the power company, I still have not had any service here. I just filed my second complaint with the local Public Service Commission. I'm waiting for both a telephone call and written reply from the power company.

 

Larry

Years ago, I had a flickering overhead light in the bedroom of an apartment I was renting. On closer inspection, I noticed a barely audible buzzing noise whenever the light flickered. After pulling the fuse, I removed the fixture and discovered a loose wire nut at the connection, which was still warm, even though the power had been off for quite a while. The wire nut and wires were black with soot from the arcing, which was the buzzing I had heard earlier. The building was about forty years old at the time, but I don't know how the wire nut loosened itself to cause the problem. I stayed there for about five years after that, but I was always on the lookout for any more electrical problems until I moved.

 

Fortunately, at the time I didn't have any sensitive electronics other than my computer, which was connected to a UPS. I would say that even if you have to pay to have your house checked out professionally, it should be done, just for your own peace of mind.

 

Bill in FtL

The power company's responsibility ends at the meter head.  Everything beyond is the homeowner's responsibility.

 

My meter once blew off the box because of a poor connection on the terminal block after the meter.  Landed about 6 feet away.  At least the Edison service guy put in a jumper so we could run part of the house.  Had to have an electrician replace the meter box. 

 

Rusty

Listen carefully to your main electrical panel.  The sound of frying bacon is a loose connection.  Good connections are quite.  The ground connection is the best guess from here.

like other have said, check the ground connection around the panel.

Gee Bob. It should be worth your piece of mind and mine to.  Call a qualified electrician.  Then set back and run those trains without interuption.

This forum is great for a lot of things but, remotely diagnosing electrical issues within someone's  house probably isn't one of them.

We don't know each other but, one of the last things I would want to see on here is a post titled "Bad news about Bob Severin."

Please call an electrician tomorrow.

Curt

I had the same problem 2 months ago. Turned out the transformer on the pole was bad.

Having worked for a public utility in the past, the last thing they want to get is a call from the regulatory organization (Public Utility Commission or something like that). CALL THEM and report the lack of cooperation from your electric company after numerous calls and their lack of follow through. I would worry about a problem that could potentially cause a fire because of a short and if you share my concerns, tell them that as well.

 

In this case, the squeaky wheel does get the grease. You need to start squeaking very loudly.

 Fluke makes a meter that will record voltage, phase fluctuations ect. I'll check the numbers on the one at work. You can google fluke meters and I am sure it will show

up. 

I've scene main breakers act like what you are describing. The guy's are right.

Check for loose connections and slight burn marks first. Also check the service entry

cable. ( wire from the meter going into the house ) I've scene the insulation break

and moisture get into the cable.

Most of all BE CAREFUL !!!!

Just call an electrician. Do not wait. Why take a risk. It could be simple or major but do not horse around.

I'd force the issue with the power company......then call an electrician for a check up. If he finds nothing on the house side then you can go to your state utility commission and file.

While waiting if you have one of the little testers with 3 LED's that show positive, negative and solid ground is a start.....but do not delay. I found a loose wire in a outlet that almost caused a issue.

 

ABSOLUTELY!  The problem will not be solved via discussions on a toy train forum.  Requires an on-site examination by a fully qualified individual.  And do it first thing tomorrow morning!

sounds like you may not be getting full voltage into the house.  an electrician can check this.  if so, you can make point with power company and they have to respond

How old is the house?

Was it built in the 1990s(?)-2003(?) when Chinese Drywall was used and since then have found it to be eating up household electrical wiring in the walls?

If you do a google search, it will show you how to do some basic inspections for this issue.

Also, having lived in Houston Texas, i.e. the Land of Telephone Poles and above ground wiring...that stuff will cause what you describe when there is a breeze.

Also, foundation issues, another SE Texas joy....can cause what you describe.

UPDATE:  

 

First:  I sat with a multi-meter on my lap for an hour.  When the lights flicker, the voltage drops from 119 to less than 100.  

 

Second:  West Penn Power showed up at my door.  Yes, on Sunday evening.  They checked the meter and told me the voltage was 244.  However, the feeder is only 60 amps, and probably should be a minimum of 100 amps.

 

Third:  And probably the most interesting.  I am not alone with this problem. Seems everyone in the neighborhood is complaining about the same thing.

 

Fourth:  They claim that they are unable locate the proper recording meters to test for the problem.  Seems these particular meters have been AWOL from West Penn Power for some time.  

 

Since I am not the only kid on the block, I will cease to investigate this on my end, and wait another week for the power company to do something.  If nothing further occurs, then I will place a call to the PUCO or one of the local TV Stations, famous for helping consumers fight the system.

 

Thanks to everyone for their concerns, offers of probable causes, and possible solutions. I did locate one circuit in  my house with an open ground.  This I will investigate and rectify myself.  I'm fairly capable when it come to this type of electrical work.  

 

Thanks once again - Bob Severin

Bob,

When you get this problem solved, you will be fully qualified to nail jello on the wall.

WOW!  That will be great.  All these years, I have been using epoxy, to varying degrees of failure.  Do I get some type of certificate?  

 

 

You will also be qualified to nail a custard pie on a tree.  I don't think there are any certificates but you could make one.

Out of jello?

I would suggest you get your neighbors to give you a small donation for solving the problem and getting the electric company to fix it.

You are in the wrong place looking for a solution to a problem like this.

What if an electrician or the power co. determines that your trains are causing power surges and drops in the neighborhood as well as your own home? I suspect your neighbors will be none too pleased.

Thanks Nick. Actually, I think this was the right place.  I got some ideas, followed through on contacting the power company, and I think the problem may yet be rectified by them.  The folks here were quite helpful with all their individual inputs.  I am grateful just to have some opinions from other folks.  Help comes in many forms, even if  just directs someone, like me, to seek out other, more qualified people to fix a given problem.

Bob with no disrespect to any forum members. GET A PRO IN TO CORRECT  THE PROBLEM.Don't play with electricity.  Steve        

I knew I should have changed over to LED for my passenger cars!  

1960's aluminum wiring caused my in-laws to rewire the house with issue you describe...... add that to the list for your electrician if home is around that age.

If you have overhead power wires, you might try wandering the neighborhood with a portable AM transistor radio tuned to an open spot on the dial.  Arcing overhead will produce static on the radio.  This is a common technique used by ham radio guys to sniff out sources of static.

Did the power company inspect your connections from the street to the house?

 

My computer UPS are very sensitive and log power events. I was experiencing intermittent "blackouts" of a couple of seconds or less. When the power company arrived, they discovered a connector to the house was bad and arcing. The guy left the melted one for me.

 

Later, after some storm damage up the road from me, the crew was doing some repairs and discovered that the neutral wire up on the poles was not connected to the transformer closest to me. That had occurred from storm damage years before. I had seen the bare metal wire laying in the woods, but thought it was just something they didn't clean up.

 

Finally, all of the "ghost" problems and noise went away. I went nuts in the house because I could find nothing wrong. Nothing was wrong.

 

The point, make sure the power company 100% all of their stuff.

First - get it fixed.

 

I might be the power company with problems in its lines - if so most likely small tree branches rubbing up against its lines, but it normally would not go on for so long without something getting bad.  IF neighbors have this problem, too, it is definately them causing the problem, if not, it may still be them, but much less likely.

 

It might be something in your house, though.  I'd tend to think that more likely  and focus on that first since if it is, it could be something you need to take care of soon.  Some things that go bad with appliances and wiring can affect all the voltage in the house.  I would not worry about your trains right now - I know we get a lot of discussion about installing DSRs and all but frankly I've never had problems with mine and there are more important things to worry about. 

 

More recently, I had something similar to what you describe occur for about three weeks maybe two years ago - when the starting capacitor on my central HVAC unit's main motor went out.  Quick dip ever time it started, mild surge (brightening) when it stopped.  Simple call to the AC repair guy and around $200 bill for changing it out and doing some other checks and service. 

 

I had a poor connection in my house wiring that was dragging down two circuits upstairs by six volts (definitely enough to see the lights dim alot).  I could have hired an electrician but, being somewhat experienced, I spent a Saturday morning tracking it down myself.  It was a poor wire-nut connection which I eventually traced to a particularly outlet box and tightened (not get only .7 volt drop).  The house is 25 years old now and this sort of thing happens . . . 

 

Wiring problems like that tend to develop oever time and get worse.  The concern I always have is not the flicker itself but the probable damage.  In the six-volts-gone case above - the six volt dip on a 15 amp circuit meant rup to 75 watts of power disappearing (as heat, somewhere) - - - in this case in that outlet box, where it had melted a wire nut and caused browning of surrounding insulation, etc.  A potential fire, (which probably would have been contained in the outlet box which is designed for that) just waiting to happen.

 

Check with the neighbors first.  Hound the utility if you think it is that.  Get someone to look at it otherwise.  These problems, if in your house, never go away - they only get worse.  Maybe not bad-stuff-happens worse, but . . . 

 

 

FIRST, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN, I agree with the other posts.

 

I've known several people that has a floating neutral outside the house, in both cases fairly extensive damage was done before it was corrected.  In both cases it was a power company issue, i.e. beyond the meter box.

 

While you're waiting for the electrician (you did call him, right?), check the voltage on each phase of your power.  They should be very closely matched, certainly within a couple of volts.  If a high current device like a hair dryer being turned on causes that phase to drop in voltage and the other phase to rise in voltage, you likely do have a neutral issue.

 

SECOND UPDATE:

 

Called electrical contractor.  They are sending someone out tomorrow.

 

I opened the main electrical box and found some things I did not like.  The main aluminum feeders are covered with a very thin plastic wrap.  Not the normal hard plastic like you find on Romex, but more like hard saran wrap.  And there are areas where the wire is exposed, not covered.  Now I realize this is not the cause for my immediate problem, but it definitely causes me concern for the future.

 

I will offer another update after he diagnoses everything. 

The main feeds come through conduit and other than the individual wire insulation on the two hot lines, they don't depend on insulation like Romex.  In truth, if you run wires through conduit, you should not have outside insulation covering them according to the NEC.

 

John:  I probably didn't make myself clear.  The wires I am talking about are in my electrical box.  Any further deterioration on the covering will cause them too short out against the metal of the box interior. 

Good move Bob.  I ran an office building for IBM back in the 80's a new facility that had aluminum wire. It drove me nuts. It would build up heat at the connections in the breaker panels which made the connections loose and caused all kinds of problems. I ended up having a contractor take pictures of all the panels in the building with a special camera that would show you the HOT SPOTS the loose connections which my maintenance people would check every three months. I ran it for five years and the system worked fine. You can feel each breaker in your panel if it's warm or hot its a problem. Another area to have them look at is how much service you have in the house if you don't have 200amp service you don't have enough.   Good Lock,   Steve

Good move, Bob. I second that. Describe your problem, show him your findings, tell him about the power co. visit and let him go to work.

If there's that kind of issue in the service entrance, you clearly do need an electrician!

 

Good luck with this.  I hate aluminum wiring by the way - worrisome stuff if not checked occasionally.  Worth having the electricians inspect everything while they are there.

Do you think aluminum is that big of a deal when used for service entry?  Pretty much standard around here for residential entries.

 

I agree you don't want your house wired with it though.

Most of the larger gauge wiring in residential wiring is still aluminum.  The issues with dissimilar metals has long ago been solved.  All the wiring to my three heat pumps is aluminum, as is the wiring to the range, dryer, and of course, the service entrance.  When I take the cover off one of the two 200A panels in my house, I see lots of aluminum wiring.

The main feeder box is wired with aluminum, as are the range (220 V), the dryer and a sub panel in the basement, both 220 volts.  Everything else, all 120 volt circuits are copper.  I have added several circuits in the basement, a feeder to my barn, and a 220 volt  copper feeder to the AC/Heat pump.  

 

When the power company rep was here yesterday, and told me my feeder was undersized, looked at for some inkling if they would replace the feed from the street to the house (about 300 feet - overhead).  I could not get a reading, he just had no affect.   

I think they must be trained to act like this, much like the medical profession about getting information without a doctor present.

 

Well, I am hopeful that the electrical contractor will be able to offer me some insights about cost and specific responsibilities.  Wish me luck.

 

 

Power Problems in House

Hi Bob Severin

See photo below of my power panel 

 

I am not an electrician, but I took a picture of my power panel. The house was built in 1936. Over the years it has been updated.

 

In the box you will see a whole house surge protector at 29 & 31. This has solved a lot of issues and I had it installed by a electrician, from the advise of my local building inspector. This may help - Good Luck 

Those are just breakers, the surge protector should be inside the cabinet, out of view. Those may be the breakers that the surge protector uses to tap in to the panel.

My whole house surge suppressor is a little box that hangs off the panel and does have a 220 breaker feeding it.

Yes, the device is inside the box. 29 & 31 are the reset for the Whole House Power Surge. We had a bad storm last week and the protector did trip 29 & 31. The building inspector did approve this installation.  Do you think a Whole House Protector would help for this issue? The big box stores all sell these. Thanks

Hi Bob 

we had the same problem at our old house.

This went on for a month or two.like you the rest of the block had same problem.

then we lost all power the transformer blow up That feed the block.

hope this helps.

 

Bob, you said this started back in May. Do you have central air conditioning? That load could cause draw down the voltage when the compressor starts. I get that all the time in my train room. 

 

On the other hand, if your neighbors are experiencing the same thing, it is probably the power company's problem and you have no control.

Although it started in May, it has nothing to do with the AC.  The problem occurs whether or not the AC is running.  It even happens in the wee hours, when the outdoor temp is cool, and there is not much going on anywhere in the area.  I have a dusk to dawn sodium light that lights the back property, and it continues to flicker when nothing else is happening.

Bob, you're doing the right thing by calling in a certified electrical contractor.  Once you get the house checked out by them it gives you more strength to be able to fight it out with the electrical company & PSC if needed by having a professional contractor reporting issues from the meter out and showing your house has been checked. Good luck!

UPDATE:

 

Today, both the power company and an electrical contractor were out. The power company lineman installed a monitor at the lines feeding my house.  They will monitor it for approximately a week to determine the cause of the voltage drop.  

 

A bit later the electrical contractor also came out.  I contracted with him to replace the entrance service, from the mast, to a new meter plug, and a complete replacement of the main panel, with an upgrade to a 200 amp service.  They are also going to install a surge suppressor in the new panel.  The surge suppressor also includes a $75000.00 rider for my home owners insurance.  

 

For those who worried about me attempting to do this on my own, I am  ever thankful for your concern.  I think it was in a Dirty Harry movie - "A man's got to know his limitations."  Well this one certainly was above my limitations, and both the wife and I are feeling good about this investment in our lives.  

 

Once again, thanks to everyone for your answers, input, and concerns.  It's what this forum is about for me.  

 

bob 

Sounds like you should be able to nail any power issues with that combo.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the power company comes up with.

"A bit later the electrical contractor also came out."

 

did he offer any speculation about what was happening?

Not directly.  He did comment that despite the obvious problems, he said everything is correctly wired, no apparent overheating or visible problems.  I still think the drop in voltage / lights flickering problem stems from the power company.

I've got no problem with AL in utility systems - called for a lot of AA and ACSR in my time and very little CU.  Or into my meter box.  Good, solid meter box terminals and all will not come loose if done right, and they are . . .

 

But here in the house, and in the trainroom and workship, no.  It's all copper and only copper.  I'm not concerned about dissimilar metals, etc. - yes that's been solved.  What bothers me is thermal expansion working circuits loose.  Somehow it causes the aluminum to gradually weaken and screwed-down contacts to loosen just a tiny bit, which causes more resistance, which causes more heating - which causes more expansion and eventually a rash of open circuits or flickering lights.  It was a major pain in a home I had two houses ago.  

 

Maybe that has been solved, too - it has been 25 years - but I'm sticking with CU.

 Bob, Thanks for the intelligent and reasoned story about your situation. I like to hear about people taking an in-depth interest instead of just "call an expert". There are plenty of cases of supposed "experts" not nailing down specific problems but charging you plenty regardless! In this case, the final verdict is not in yet?

 

A friend had a low water pressure situation at his residence that was an elusive problem. He finally tracked it down to an undersized hole in the plastic water main upstream of the water meter. It was one of those neighborhoods where new houses are connected to the existing pressurized main with a saddle tee, then they drill through a ball valve to make the connection. But the "experts" drilled too small! And it took years to track down the real problem!

Bob:

 

Glad that you have a handle on this situation. It will be interesting to see what the Power Company comes up with in terms of their monitoring device. Please keep us posted.

 

It sounds like you have the problem in hand. Sorry to be late to the party, but I can offer a possible explanation to the relatively sudden onset of low voltage problems.

 

I was asked by our local church to figure out why, suddenly, the lights would flicker when the A-C units kicked in.  I took measurements and determined that the line voltage on both 120 volt legs would sag 5 volts when the compressors started.  That is more than the recommended maximum 3% voltage drop that we go by.

 

It seems that the lighting company had re-run and re-directed our aerial drop wire from an adjacent pole-mounted transformer, to one about 4 sections (~600') away.

 

They had done this because a commercial building across the street had complained of low voltage, so the brains at LIPA (motto "We're even worse than the phone company") moved the church to a different transformer, and in doing so added more copper, which results in more resistance, which results in more sag.

 

I convinced them to put things back the way they were, and to move the commercial building's service to a transformer one section back.  Now everyone is happy.

 

Something like this might have happened in your neighborhood back in May.

Bob, if you're having the electrical contractor upgrading your service up to 200 amp service from the panel, meter, pole mast, & feeder wires from the mast to the panel the electrical company will need to upgrade your supply wires from the street pole to the mast to handle the extra power requirements if ever needed,  they charge by your supply service so make sure they replace & upgrade your supply lines. Try to have your contractor there when the electrical company does the upgrade plus everything has to be inspected too. Sounds like you're doing everything right. Good luck.