Powering 2 very large loops

Get Barry's book and study Part III, the section on DCS Implementation.  This will save you time and effort in the long run.  The DCS considerations are different from the electrical considerations.

At the Paradise and Pacific layout in Scottsdale AZ we have run twelve DCS trains simultaneously on one mainline with a similar length.

Suggest you also consider sidings in your planning.

Good Luck!

 

Thanks Tom.....you pointed me in a good direction....especially with the 10ga. 

Tom,

What is the length of your blocks?  I figure 15 (12') blocks per loop for THEHEATS' plan.

Do you have both outside rails continuous common (U) ?

I like your logic on the larger gauge wire farther from the source.

Tom Tee posted:

Do not know if this helps but I have a 194' loop with grades and 19 turnouts running PS-3 conventional engines with one Z-1000 feeding a star pattern  through a 24 port #50-1020.

i4 ga star wire close to source, 12 ga star wire further along and 10 ga star wire at the distant points.  All wire runs continuous, no joints.

This seems backwards to me

clem k posted:

Tom Tee posted:

Do not know if this helps but I have a 194' loop with grades and 19 turnouts running PS-3 conventional engines with one Z-1000 feeding a star pattern  through a 24 port #50-1020.

i4 ga star wire close to source, 12 ga star wire further along and 10 ga star wire at the distant points.  All wire runs continuous, no joints.

This seems backwards to me

This is correct, remember your wire gauge sizes, #10 is larger than #14, doubtful you would ever need anything larger than #10 wire unless you get over 500 feet away from source

I've run my battery powered locos on some very large layouts. Kind of eliminates the wire size issues.

Just returning to the hobby after 30 yr hiatus....not sure what u mean by battery powered.....make? Mfr?

You don't have 12awg coming from your electric pole and 2 ought wire at your outlets.

Battery power for OGauge locos is now a practical option. It requires some do-it-yourself which was detailed in the December 2016 OGauge Rail-Roading magazine.

I read that as changing the wire size in the same run. Should have been written, the longer the run the larger the wire.

Thanks, CLEM. I misread that also. 

I run two 140' loops with a z4000 with 14 g electrical wire, feeders every 6 feet. Trains run super smooth at any speed, conventional or cruise control. 15 years of reliable service.

Ok Clifford got ya.....I was wondering how many trains...engines ....or amps ...are being drawn on your layout.....?

BOB WALKER posted:

Battery power for OGauge locos is now a practical option. It requires some do-it-yourself which was detailed in the December 2016 OGauge Rail-Roading magazine.

Thanks Bob...will be looking into it.

Each of the dual mains on my layout is 250 feet long, and there are other smaller loops, sidings, and spurs for a total of about 900 feet of track. There also are 59 switch tracks. Two Lionel ZW-L transformers, through two MTH DCS TIU's and eight relay blocks, provide power to the 20 dual main districts and 28 sidings and spurs, as shown below.

This is just my approach to the wiring, and it works great running both DCS and Legacy.

Alex

THEHEAT,

No matter how large your DCS layout is, when building a new layout, build with the Block Engineering Technique, with no more than 10-13 Track Joins to any one block.  If you are in the future, going to add Legacy to you layout, Engineer the drops on the opposite outside rail from your DCS Drops, as you build your layout.  This saves a lot of time latter on, especially if you are using FasTrack.

Definitely use Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion Book as an Engineering Guide, I also like to recommend the OGR Video Guide to DCS, the video is a little dated, however still a lot of great visual education for building DCS layouts.

I recommend the use of the newer Z4K and ZW-L Transformers, however if you want to save some big money use the old ZW's with 10 Amp Breakers between your Transformers and your DCS TIU.  I also use KW's for my Bumper Car and Street Car lines. Make sure you Phase your Transformers.  I have a nice size 29' X 18' Train Room with lots of Track, I run DCS and Legacy both, and have no problems with running, in my Train Room, using the Transformers and Engineering Methods I have recommended.

Good luck with building your layout, if you have questions come back to the OGR we have a lot of experience men here, and they are always willing to help.

PCRR/Dave

Construction continues on the PCRR Train Room.

 

 

 

 

INGENIERO, if you have a derailment does the ZW kill power to all 4 TIU inputs? 

I have always wondered why the having blocks on your layout is necessary, I have a new ZW-L, tentatively I'm planning on using Atlas track on my first level of my Layout, and Lionel Fastrack on my 2d & 3d level.  I also have Legacy and MTH DCS.  I have been accumulating equipment, trains and track while I decorate my train room because once I start laying down my track I don't want cosmetics to diversify my focus.  Is there any source documents or books that can clarify the reasoning for block usage, I really need to know.  Thanks.

marshelangelo posted:

I have always wondered why the having blocks on your layout is necessary, I have a new ZW-L, tentatively I'm planning on using Atlas track on my first level of my Layout, and Lionel Fastrack on my 2d & 3d level.  I also have Legacy and MTH DCS.  I have been accumulating equipment, trains and track while I decorate my train room because once I start laying down my track I don't want cosmetics to diversify my focus.  Is there any source documents or books that can clarify the reasoning for block usage, I really need to know.  Thanks.

Greg,

Conventional runners used block wiring  for multiple train control and power distribution for high amperage train running.

MTH DCS signal operates better when the length of track the signal must travel is limited.

Legacy will work on any configuration, but works best when both outside rails are common. (Atlas doesn't do it do with the track, so you must wire it)

Most O gauge layout wiring books were focused on doing advanced wiring for operational control and not much on simple power distribution.

Barry's book on DCS is a must. It will help in a lot of areas.

Ingenerio's (Alex) schematic is good one. Save it.

I like INGENIERO's method of wiring. My only concern is if using bricks for each channel, is there a way to kill power to all the blocks?  If in one block there is a derailment and the breaker kicks on the brick feeding that block, but the engine is in the next block, the derailed cars get drug through telegraph poles and scenery or scrape up car on adjacent tracks. I also run multiple unit lash-ups and fear cooking a board if half of the lash-up is in the next power block and those engines continue to strain trying to pull 2 or 3 dead engines behind them. I would hate to burn up a motor FET when the cruise control cranks up the amps to pull those dead engines. Is there a trick to getting all the power to shut down going into the TIU?

Dave Z: 

No, only that output. Best answer I can provide regarding overload protection is from the LW-L's manual (see underlined portion):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your Lionel ZW-L is equipped with three levels of overload protection: dynamic power limiting,
fold-back current limit, and circuit breakers. Each output has its own fold-back current limit and
circuit breaker. The dynamic power limiting is applied across all four outputs. This provides multi-layer
protection for your trains and transformer while supplying the maximum power possible for pulling
lighted cars or fighting over grades with heavy loads.
Dynamic power limiting allows the 620W available from the transformer to be shared across the four
outputs as necessary to power the connected loads. Up to 180W is available to each output as long as
the total power of all four outputs does not exceed the 620W transformer rating. When the 620W total is
reached the output that tried to take more power will be limited to maintain the 620W total. The red light
on the transformer will flash while the output is being limited. The transformer can run in this mode
indefinitely and will not shut down. When more power becomes available because of a change in the
demand from the other outputs it will be automatically given to the limited output.
The fold-back current limit protects your transformer and layout from damage caused by severe overloads
and short circuits in the case of derailments or objects falling on the track. At the same time it prevents
the inconvenience of nuisance tripping caused by momentary overloads. It continuously monitors
the output current of all four outputs. When there is a short on any of the outputs it will reduce the voltage
on that output in a fraction of a second to hold the current at 10A. If the short circuit is not corrected in
3 seconds the transformer will interrupt power to that output. All other outputs will be unaffected. During
the 3 seconds the red light on the ZW-L will flash. Once the output is shut down the red light will come on
solid. To indicate which output(s) are experiencing the problem, the back light of the meter assigned to
that output will be turned off. Refer to Figure 1 for the meters assigned to each output. For Conventional
operation, move the throttle for that output to the Off position to reset the Transformer and resume normal
operation. For Command operation press RESET or enter AUX1, 0 on the CAB-2/CAB-1 for that output.
The circuit breakers on the ZW-L Transformer are designed as a fail-safe for the electronic over-current
protection. Because most problems will be protected by and corrected during fold-back mode operation
(described in the previous section), circuit breakers should be tripped infrequently.
In the event that a breaker is tripped, the backlight on the meter assigned to that output will be turned
off. Refer to Figure 1 for the meters assigned to each output. Correct the short circuit (e.g., make sure that
the train's wheels are properly on the track and remove any foreign objects from the rails), return the
handle(s) to the Off position, and then press the circuit breaker buttons shown in Figure 3 on page 9 to
reset power."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the blocks - I have several reason for having individual blocks that I can turn ON-OFF from the control panel.

1. Engines parked on the block that will not be running can be turned off. MTH engines CHRONO feature records the time the engine has been powered - no sense in adding to that time up when the engine is not operational. The ODOM records the scale miles traveled.

2. I had MTH engines that took off unexpectedly. This occurred a couple of times before I had the wiring finished. I have also had Legacy engines 'creep' out of their intended resting place because I forgot to reverse them before shutting down. Only a couple of Legacy engines do this, but they seem to always bounce to "speed 1" from "0". If I am not going to be running that train or engine for a while, I shut it down.

3. I have not changed my passenger cars lighting to LED's, and with over 20 passenger cars on the layout at any one time, if they are not running, I shut the power down to their siding or spur.

4. I do not have a dedicated track to add MTH engines, so when I do add an MTH engine, I shut the power down to the tracks where there are MTH engines; except for the one I want to add, of course.

Note that I use relays to control the block power. This precludes having to run the actual power wires to the control panel, which in my case would be a problem because of the distances. Instead, I run 22 AWG wires to operate the relays from the control panel.

I hope this helps, some.

Alex

Thanks for the explanation Alex. 

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Dave Z: 

INGENIERO, if you have a derailment does the ZW kill power to all 4 TIU inputs? 

No, only that output. Best answer I can provide regarding overload protection is from the LW-L's manual (see underlined portion):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your Lionel ZW-L is equipped with three levels of overload protection: dynamic power limiting,
fold-back current limit, and circuit breakers. Each output has its own fold-back current limit and
circuit breaker. The dynamic power limiting is applied across all four outputs. This provides multi-layer
protection for your trains and transformer while supplying the maximum power possible for pulling
lighted cars or fighting over grades with heavy loads.
Dynamic power limiting allows the 620W available from the transformer to be shared across the four
outputs as necessary to power the connected loads. Up to 180W is available to each output as long as
the total power of all four outputs does not exceed the 620W transformer rating. When the 620W total is
reached the output that tried to take more power will be limited to maintain the 620W total. The red light
on the transformer will flash while the output is being limited. The transformer can run in this mode
indefinitely and will not shut down. When more power becomes available because of a change in the
demand from the other outputs it will be automatically given to the limited output.
The fold-back current limit protects your transformer and layout from damage caused by severe overloads
and short circuits in the case of derailments or objects falling on the track. At the same time it prevents
the inconvenience of nuisance tripping caused by momentary overloads. It continuously monitors
the output current of all four outputs. When there is a short on any of the outputs it will reduce the voltage
on that output in a fraction of a second to hold the current at 10A. If the short circuit is not corrected in
3 seconds the transformer will interrupt power to that output. All other outputs will be unaffected. During
the 3 seconds the red light on the ZW-L will flash. Once the output is shut down the red light will come on
solid. To indicate which output(s) are experiencing the problem, the back light of the meter assigned to
that output will be turned off. Refer to Figure 1 for the meters assigned to each output. For Conventional
operation, move the throttle for that output to the Off position to reset the Transformer and resume normal
operation. For Command operation press RESET or enter AUX1, 0 on the CAB-2/CAB-1 for that output.
The circuit breakers on the ZW-L Transformer are designed as a fail-safe for the electronic over-current
protection. Because most problems will be protected by and corrected during fold-back mode operation
(described in the previous section), circuit breakers should be tripped infrequently.
In the event that a breaker is tripped, the backlight on the meter assigned to that output will be turned
off. Refer to Figure 1 for the meters assigned to each output. Correct the short circuit (e.g., make sure that
the train's wheels are properly on the track and remove any foreign objects from the rails), return the
handle(s) to the Off position, and then press the circuit breaker buttons shown in Figure 3 on page 9 to
reset power."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the blocks - I have several reason for having individual blocks that I can turn ON-OFF from the control panel.

1. Engines parked on the block that will not be running can be turned off. MTH engines CHRONO feature records the time the engine has been powered - no sense in adding to that time up when the engine is not operational. The ODOM records the scale miles traveled.

2. I had MTH engines that took off unexpectedly. This occurred a couple of times before I had the wiring finished. I have also had Legacy engines 'creep' out of their intended resting place because I forgot to reverse them before shutting down. Only a couple of Legacy engines do this, but they seem to always bounce to "speed 1" from "0". If I am not going to be running that train or engine for a while, I shut it down.

3. I have not changed my passenger cars lighting to LED's, and with over 20 passenger cars on the layout at any one time, if they are not running, I shut the power down to their siding or spur.

4. I do not have a dedicated track to add MTH engines, so when I do add an MTH engine, I shut the power down to the tracks where there are MTH engines; except for the one I want to add, of course.

Note that I use relays to control the block power. This precludes having to run the actual power wires to the control panel, which in my case would be a problem because of the distances. Instead, I run 22 AWG wires to operate the relays from the control panel.

I hope this helps, some.

Alex

Thanks for taking the time to post all of that knowledge......appreciate it!