Prewar Layout Build Thread

Moonman posted:

Dreyfuss Hudson posted:

1/2 " ply has been put on top. Haven't secured it yet. Tweaking it to get it all to fit real snug against walls and each other. (A little over-the-top because the homasote will be going on top of the ply.) Hatches in center need to be cut yet.

Check out Alex' build thread on 3/18/11 post for his Hidden Pass Junction layout. A very nice hatch system. We have a hatch on the Eagle Scout Project layout with a park on it. When I went up through it the first time, I stood there looking for a place to sit it in the middle of the town. I'll be adding Alex' system over the winter. It's the woods with Dorothy, Scarecrow & TinMan walking out. It end up on the grocery store building roof across the street. It's a piece of 2" foam.

Hi, Thanks for posting. yes, I have seen the thread on this awesome design for hatches. I am considering it!

Incredible in the vision, planning, equipment and execution. Please keep the posts coming.

Hey, on that plywood. Did you consider expansion there too? I'm not even sure it would much, plywood was never my thing. But I'd think a small gap ⅛"-¼" would be needed for the top.(walls expand too) .  Let the more flexible homasote and/or ground cover, cover up the gap, just like you implied.

Scotie posted:

Incredible in the vision, planning, equipment and execution. Please keep the posts coming.

Made my night, thanks Scotie.

Before putting down homasote (spell check wants to change 'homasote' to 'comatose'... hmmmmm...), I laid down the track on the board just for spacing purposes. There was one area by the center hatch that was in question as to whether the inner-most loop would fit around it. It was worked into the benchwork plans with a "cut -corner' on the opening. What worked in plan worked in practice just fine. 

The space eater on this layout is the 140L tunnel. It is only for 42 curves, but the footprint of the tunnel is HUGE. Because it is in a walled corner it requires a set-back of the track by close to 10 inches from the walls. And, you just don't place it and go, the bigger equipment needs to be tested for tunnel clearance entering and leaving. In addition, not many 140L tunnels square up to be at perfect angles on the 42 track curves. Remember those tunnels were hand-hammered brass or tin, that had pre-fab'd portals place onto them. Sometimes they didn't sit at a perfect 90 degrees.

I tested a 400e and a state car. It is going to require nailing that tunnel into an exact spot, but I am reticent to poke holes in it. I am probably going to do some kind of clamping on the inside/out-of-sight flanges.

I figured you would need to be careful with engine overhang on that tunnel.  The 400e would be the worst.  I can't run my double headed 400e on 42 curves; they derail.  Instead of nailing into the tunnel, you may be able to nail or screw to the inside and outside edge or screw in small L-brackets. You could 'pinch nail' the sides also. You might use some heavy felt against the tunnel so you don't scrape it. Clamping inside sounds good too, if you can make it work. Also, felt could help protect the tunnel. It is such a nice one, that it is worth the trouble!

Impressive, Dreyfuss! First the 'Metropolis' backdrop, and now your mountain scenery reminds me of the tones in the old railroad posters. Great stuff!

Can you talk a little more about the background mural? I think it came out great. Do you have any sort of art training, did you work off of picture or painting, did you first sketch it out, what material is it on and what type of paint did you use. You should be quite happy with how it came out.

Tom 

MNCW posted:

Can you talk a little more about the background mural? I think it came out great. Do you have any sort of art training, did you work off of picture or painting, did you first sketch it out, what material is it on and what type of paint did you use. You should be quite happy with how it came out.

Tom 

Thanks much Tom. I have been painting off and on for years. I have limited skills as far as painting people go, but do okay with scenic and 'Plein Air' style painting. I wanted this mural to be as stylized as the standard gauge trains are. I wanted it to blend-in with the style of the ingeniously designed engines, cars, and accessories.

For inspiration, I looked at a lot of WPA murals and certain industrial type artists. I wanted one side to be the downtown steam-shrouded city area, and the other to be the smoke-belching factory area. Tones are all in the blue grey arena except for the sunset and its effects. I chose the muted grey and blue tones because I wanted the mural to be muted and not too bright having an 'aesthetic distance' to it. But the main reason is for the muted tones is that I didn't want to upstage the incredible colors of the trains.  I wanted them to be the stars.

This mural was painted on masonite. First I primed the masonite with Gesso, which is pretty much a standard for painting on board. After the priming, I sketched what I wanted, roughing in the hills and mountains, but taking ruler to the buildings in order to get the correct (and sometimes hyper-exaggerated) perspectives. I used oil paint exclusively, and the colors were mixed with oleopasto and quick drying medium for faster setup.  Lastly I coated it all with the modeler's choice for top coats: Future floor Finish. It's a big no-no among serious painters, but the modeler in me knew it was gonna be fine. It gives the exact shine that I wanted which causes the tones and colors to look a little 'deeper'. Thanks again for asking and for your comments.

Thanks for all the details. Looking forward to seeing more posts on your layout. 

Tom 

PS- I like the Lionel tunnels, too. I have 2 of the 120 tunnels and another small one along with the same station you have and the signal bridge, also. Just need some time to build the next layout!

Tom 

Caulk as a glue for the tunnel should work. If you use a light latex one not made for extreme wetness, it should be easy to remove the tunnel one day and scrub it clean with mild mineral spirits and/or a plastic dish dobbie alone.

Ran the spacing tests. You can see how far away the main line is from the right wall, due to the setback and size of the 140L Tunnel. It dwarfs the very large Hellgate bridge next to it.

Now that puts the 140L into perspective for me. I have never seen one, but I have seen many hellgate bridges. That is a big tunnel.

it may be late in the game, but have you tried attacking the tunnel with either of these arrangements to keep you closer to wall?  It's an 42 1/2-curve to start and a half in the center, half straights between.

Moonman posted:

Now that puts the 140L into perspective for me. I have never seen one, but I have seen many hellgate bridges. That is a big tunnel.

it may be late in the game, but have you tried attacking the tunnel with either of these arrangements to keep you closer to wall?  It's an 42 1/2-curve to start and a half in the center, half straights between

Hi, thanks for the thoughtful input. I did try to put a half straight in there. This bugger is nothing but 42.

Dreyfuss Hudson posted:

Moonman posted:

Now that puts the 140L into perspective for me. I have never seen one, but I have seen many hellgate bridges. That is a big tunnel.

it may be late in the game, but have you tried attacking the tunnel with either of these arrangements to keep you closer to wall?  It's an 42 1/2-curve to start and a half in the center, half straights between

Hi, thanks for the thoughtful input. I did try to put a half straight in there. This bugger is nothing but 42.

Ok thanks. There's a bottom up shot on the web that makes the angles look a little flatter at the entrance. I suppose most folks didn't have room for a larger diameter curve at the time. I also didn't realize that it had chalets on it. Is the stream hammed down for a negative relief or just painted on?

Moonman posted:

Dreyfuss Hudson posted:

Moonman posted:

Ok thanks. There's a bottom up shot on the web that makes the angles look a little flatter at the entrance. I suppose most folks didn't have room for a larger diameter curve at the time. I also didn't realize that it had chalets on it. Is the stream hammed down for a negative relief or just painted on?

The stream is hammered in and painted also. All of them should have 7 chalets on them. The 140L is one of my favorite accessories (if not my absolute favorite) because no two are the same. Essentially, they are industrial folk-art. I have seen some that are not so good and some that are real nice. Some painting that is garish and sloppy and some that look like the worker took their time. I was lucky enough to find one without any major damage and with what i think is a really nice paint job.  Below is mine, with an inside look too. It was obviously stored for decades. Had tons of dust and cobwebs.

The 140L is one of the nicest, if not the nicest, prewar accessory...your planned deployment looks great, just as intended. 

A buddy of mine has one, and I noticed there's a small opening behind each of the chalets that allows the interior light to shine through, illuminating the windows in the small buildings. It is very sharp with the room lights turned down.

The layout looks great.

PD

Dreyfuss Hudson posted:

Ran the spacing tests. You can see how far away the main line is from the right wall, due to the setback and size of the 140L Tunnel. It dwarfs the very large Hellgate bridge next to it.

I can think of two ways to address that extra space:

1. I'm not familiar with Prewar Standard Gauge accessories.  Are there any with a depth that would match your space?  If this were Postwar O, I'd be putting an 352 Icing station, 362 barrel loader, 364 log loader, etc. along that straight section.  This would use that space nicely.  Are there any prewar accessories that might due in this case?
   
   
2. Coming out of the tunnel, you might cut an O42 curve in half or even in thirds and make an Ess curve to get the track closer to the wall.  I'm aware that would change the nature of the left hand turnout (underneath the tenderless steam loco), but if your goal was to avoid a large expanse of unused table, this might help.

Nothing else is coming to mind.  

Steven J. Serenska

Yes, the extra room creates space for your industry.

Serenska posted:

Dreyfuss Hudson posted:

Ran the spacing tests. You can see how far away the main line is from the right wall, due to the setback and size of the 140L Tunnel. It dwarfs the very large Hellgate bridge next to it.

I can think of two ways to address that extra space:

1. I'm not familiar with Prewar Standard Gauge accessories.  Are there any with a depth that would match your space?  If this were Postwar O, I'd be putting an 352 Icing station, 362 barrel loader, 364 log loader, etc. along that straight section.  This would use that space nicely.  Are there any prewar accessories that might due in this case?
   
   
2. Coming out of the tunnel, you might cut an O42 curve in half or even in thirds and make an Ess curve to get the track closer to the wall.  I'm aware that would change the nature of the left hand turnout (underneath the tenderless steam loco), but if your goal was to avoid a large expanse of unused table, this might help.

Nothing else is coming to mind.  

Steven J. Serenska

Yes, that space will be used. There may be a155 Freight Station going there, maybe some of my prewar metal decorative fencing, streetlamp.. etc.   

Scenic plots could go on that wall. It would be selective compression and make the mural look larger.

You could make a stub siding by putting a switch on the last 42 curve. Most layouts do not have enough sidings,

Just did a sound test on the half inch plywood board with two separate side-by-side small sections of track. On the first section I just laid the track on the board. On the second section, I put weatherstripping insulation into the metal ties. Wow, what a difference. I was all ready to start cutting homasote, but this method gives me pause. Sound was so much less, and the trans held firm.

So, two questions: Has anyone done this method and how does it hold up over time? Thoughts?

I think Jim Kelly-Evans does this. There may be a thread here or on Tinplate Times.

There is still reflective sound off the hard wood to consider too. You may want to test the homasote if you have it. Filling the wall gap with a park walkway, strolling figures, and elegant iron fences seems ideal and period correct to boot. Running with the comparison Firewood used a nice fit too. Printing trees to.quality sticker sheets, then applied to sheet metal would be option that keeps the look going without eating space normal trees would. I've wondered about printing directly to a primered surface too. My grandfather had a similar tunnel with lit structures when I was very young, but it was either O or adapted to O. I don't know if it was metal, but those awesome lit chalets got etched deeply into my memories. The tunnel size is very fitting near the bridge. Gotta cut short, fresh updates have left me with one line of text to work with, I need to clear things up and reboot.

My 140L does not have cutouts to allow light to flow through. Maybe there were different versions. This one is all original and those metal houses are affixed to a solid background. Is everyone sure the 140Ls had this feature?  

I don't think I've ever seen any Lionel prewar tunnel with houses that lit up.

for Dreyfuss. Link to sound deadening thread. Link.

  Lit houses: I only know Gramps tunnel looked very similar, lights on the inside, and had lit houses that looked similar, and looked older than the rest of the layout. He was a serious Lionel collector since he was a ten year old kid, like 1920s. Other brands could be counted on one hand and had to be prime examples. One house high on the left was a Swiss A-frame the rest chalets. It's where I first heard the word chalet. I had to ask what it meant.  I know enough now to think it loosely represented the Monte Blanc Alps being viewed from France. That's why the A frame was on the upper left, it would be Switzerland if you were in France.

  I can't figure out where you guys find ANY info on pre-war ANYTHING. I'm lucky to find photos of common engines.

There are like four Post War ID sites and three MARX sites, but I dont find diddly squat on pre-war tin of any size by Lionel or others. Oh, well maybe in German, French, or Italian, but nothing stateside.

Well I don't think it would be terribly difficult to cut a few holes in the tunnel lining so light would shine into those houses.  Maybe that's what he did.

Best prewar reference in my collection is "The Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942 by David Doyle".  Well worth the money if you can find a copy. 

My thought exactly on the lighting "Quickdraw".

(& thanks)

pennytrains posted:

Well I don't think it would be terribly difficult to cut a few holes in the tunnel lining so light would shine into those houses.  Maybe that's what he did.

Best prewar reference in my collection is "The Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942 by David Doyle".  Well worth the money if you can find a copy. 

For Prewar O Gauge, I would recommend...

Tom

After taking a Christmas break (too much to do), I am back at the layout.  In the last two days I cut and put the top layer of Homesote on. Yikes, what a difficult material to work with. No dust problem though because I made all of my cuts with a sharp box cutter. (Scoring it lightly first then digging deeper and deeper. you can literally cut in your living room, because there is zero dust. None. Nada, if you do it this way.

Next up is priming both sides of the Homesote, then painting the base coat. 

The only other tip I can give on Homesote, is to be sure the angle of your bad is as close to 90 degrees as possible. (Straight up and down cuts.) Anything else will give you bad seams. 

Homasote being fit like large puzzle pieces . I did this to put seams in spots that would be hidden (although the spackling, primer and two coats of paint did a good job of hiding them). The interlocking angles seemed to really firm up the table. Not that it wasn't firm with the ply, however now I can't even budge it with a firm push. Like granite, and still easily taken apart.

Photo below does not represent the color of the table top correctly. Continuing with the dusky, steam-swept-industrial theme, its a not-too-deep bluish gray, that betrays a hint of green. 

 

Temporarily roughing things in for placement and perspective. Not final. (Track is not nailed down yet and may move a bit.)  There will be further painting details on the table (some grassy areas, not too busy though) as well as a bunch of street lamps (No. 56), signals, an 840 Power Station (on the center hatch), and most likely a 116 station.

Beautiful Layout! Keep the pictures coming please. I get the industrial feel of it with the color palate and the exceptional background. You almost have me rethinking my future plans for my tinplate layout. Definitely something to consider. 

That's gonna look goooooood! 

Notice the 400e by the tunnel. That and the State cars are the ultimate clearance testers. (Forgot to mention the 219 Crane car. That sucker won't go through my Hellgate in the spot that it's in. Too close to curves and the boom will hit.)

This photo is of the two center hatches. They are adjoining but are separated by a divider/I-beam. The majority of my layout is boxed in by walls. The positioning of the center hatches was crucial. Wanting to get the most out of a small/moderately sized layout took some obsessive floor layout trials, and lots of experimentation. Notice the bridge lying very close to the cut corner of the hatch. This is a testament to the excellent work and patience of Tim Foley at Mianne Benchwork.