Prewar Lionel 712 trucks....?

I love 700 series coaches, they're among my favorite tinplate cars! I own several sets.

I don't own any 2226W tenders, but I do have a few 263W tenders attached to some of my MTH Lionel Corp engines. I looked at some 2226Ws online and they look extremely similar to the 263W tender trucks with the exception of black journals. I took down my command-control Crescent Limited 263e and my vintage Lionel 712 to compare the trucks for you.

The only difference I see here is journal color and the couplers. The box coupler mechanism on the MTH repro looks extremely similar to the ones I saw for the 2226W when I checked them out online. It hooks around the axles so you could take it off or add it by removing the wheels from the truck.

Someone with an actual 2226W on hand can confirm this, but it appears that prewar 6-wheel trucks only differ in journal finish and coupler style. Hope that helps!

Thank-YOU !!!   any chance you have a712 6 wheel observation  in need of restoration or correct trucks Thanks

@DanssuperO posted:

Thank-YOU !!!   any chance you have a712 6 wheel observation  in need of restoration or correct trucks Thanks

I don't think I have any spare 6-wheel trucks, they're all built into operating trains. I can try to 3D print some trucks for you if that would help!

I see six wheel trucks on ebay once in awhile. I have actually been buying them because I want to put them on a set of passenger cars that have four wheel trucks. They sell for around 25 to 30 dollars apiece. So if buying from there be prepared to spend.

Jim

HI Jim....  I been trying to eye them  so far the Lionel Prewar  2226E tender and the 2263W  tender looks the same.

Any chance you would know or the ones you bought  where they under the listings of the 710 or 712 or where they from  the  above    tenders mentioned

thanks!...

Sorry another question  when Rich Art Trains  reproduce the 700 series cars

Do you think he used NOS or did he make them  or did back in the day someone?

6Wheel trucks (Orig or MTH) will not fit 4 wheel cars without modification of the cars... or the truck. The turning stop stamping was modified on the original 6 Wheel cars due to the larger bolster stamping of the 6 wheel truck.

Thanks for the info!  .. What I have are Rich Art Trains 712 Observation

I did find  the 6 wheel prewar copper trucks for from our friend Jeff from the Train Tender...

I won't know until the parts come to see  if when Rich Art Trains made them he designed them to fit either 4  and the 6 wheel truck . Because I have read he made them both ways  time will tell thanks!

I hoping he made all his shell the same .. Time will tell...

I had no problem removing 4 wheel trucks from RichArt 700 series passenger cars & replacing them with original Lionel 700 series 6 wheel trucks.

This is the 4 car RichArt set with 4 wheel trucks as I received them:

I removed the 4 wheel trucks from the RichArt set & the 6 wheel trucks from the original Lionel set & restored the beat up Lionel trucks so as I could use them on the RichArt set:

This is what the RichArt set looks like with the restored Lionel 6 wheel trucks:

I put the 4 wheel RichArt trucks on the beat up original Lionel cars for a future restoration project:

I bought the beat up Lionel set through an auction from one of the large auction houses with the intent of using the trucks for the RichArt set.

Once again, I had absolutely NO problems switching the original Lionel trucks over to the RichArt cars without modification.

Hope this helps.

Ken

Wow  Thanks!!!  I been wondering  how can you tell the difference between Rich Art Trains and the originals  ?

Beautiful set I got mine here ! great guy I painted the roofs jet  glossy black since I saw the article with them pictured that way .

also still wondering if he made everything from scratch of use nos parts and?

Thanks agian

@Rob English posted:

6Wheel trucks (Orig or MTH) will not fit 4 wheel cars without modification of the cars... or the truck. The turning stop stamping was modified on the original 6 Wheel cars due to the larger bolster stamping of the 6 wheel truck.

This really got me to thinking as I had always thought that the 4 and 6 wheel trucks were completely interchangeable. Time for an analysis!

I started by fishing an extra 800 series truck out of my parts bin and carefully removing one of the non-power trucks from my vintage 700 series cars and putting them side by side. As I suspected, the trucks are the same height and use the same wheels and axles.

The turning stop tabs for the 800 series truck and the 6-wheel truck line up, although they seem to be cut off on my cars (and there are no slots for them in the frame). The MTH repro cars that I have do have these tabs intact, inserted into guide slots in the frame, so it seems they may or may not be present on any particular set.

I also have an 8-wheeled set of 700 series cars. They have been very heavily customized by a previous owner who was much more skilled with Bondo than I am (my only addition was to finish wiring up the lights!). I am not 100% sure if these trucks are original but they seem to fit pretty well on the cars' frames.

These 4-wheel 700 series trucks are very tall and have enormous Standard Gauge sized wheels, although they are certainly O Gauge in width. I think these would have looked at home with the 256 which is itself a very tall and impressive locomotive. Interestingly, they have a narrower top section than the 800 series or 700 series trucks. My cars do not have tabs but if they did, they would not fit into the same slots as the 800 series since the diameter is different. The mounting post is meant for a washer and cotter pin instead of an E-clip but seems to be the same diameter and just a tad longer.

What I would conclude is that 700 series cars can have regular height 6 wheel trucks or the taller 4 wheel trucks, with or without turning stop tabs. In any case it appears that modifying the truck (bending or removing tabs) would allow it to fit on either frame since the mounting posts are similar.

This is what Jeff is sending me (plus the other parts needed to finish) looks like bending  the tab is all that is needed   I think from what you sent the height will be shorter? thanks again

@LIRR Cannonball: Looks like us two Kens were both working towards the same answer in two different ways. Love those red 700s by the way, both the old and the new! Aaargh, I'm trying to avoid getting more coaches but that red and yellow does look nice!

@Trainguy Ken,

Tinplate does have a certain way of calling out to all of us.

Ken

@LIRR Cannonball posted:

I had no problem removing 4 wheel trucks from RichArt 700 series passenger cars & replacing them with original Lionel 700 series 6 wheel trucks.

This is the 4 car RichArt set with 4 wheel trucks as I received them:

I removed the 4 wheel trucks from the RichArt set & the 6 wheel trucks from the original Lionel set & restored the beat up Lionel trucks so as I could use them on the RichArt set:

This is what the RichArt set looks like with the restored Lionel 6 wheel trucks:

I put the 4 wheel RichArt trucks on the beat up original Lionel cars for a future restoration project:

I bought the beat up Lionel set through an auction from one of the large auction houses with the intent of using the trucks for the RichArt set.

Once again, I had absolutely NO problems switching the original Lionel trucks over to the RichArt cars without modification.

Hope this helps.

Ken

So you have them all!!  I have been keeping an eye out for those red 700 series RichArt cars, especially the 709  and 711.  I made an impulse buy of the mth 6 axle red 710 set from Side Track hobbies a few years back ( 2 x 710 coaches and of course the 712 observation).  I found the single extra mth coach after about a year and a half of internet searching and phone calling.  It took the mth archives going to auction for me to finally snag the separate sale baggage car!  O well, I'll snag them one of these days

Jhz563,

Keep an eye out for offerings through the big auction houses. It seems sometimes the best source for elusive items comes from the disposition of a collection. Good luck in your search. Patience is a virtue they say.

Is their a BIG diffeance between Rich Art Trains and original prewar Lionel 700 series cars?

Are all the parts interchangeable? ie roof  inserts etc. ?

Did he use original Lionel parts on trucks or anywhere else when Rich Art  made these ones?

I have only switched the trucks as I have never needed to use other parts on RichArt trains. I like the 6 wheel trucks much more than the 4 wheel trucks.

So I cannot factually say all parts are interchangeable, although I suspect they are.

You can look on the bottom of the frame for a large letter "R" which will tell you it is a RichArt piece.

Ken

wow, IM going to relook when I put my 6 wheel truck on but I did have everything apart and did not notice any stamping like that.

However I did see  a magic maker with some markings on them  you can tell everything looks newer not aged .

The wire used for pick up and the window shades and clear are perfectly newer looking..

thanks for letting me know about yours

I  came home and looked underneath and I can't believe I did not see this before  .. mine  say V-W and the numbers  hand written in a Sharpe .

I do not know it what it means .. If you do I appreciate knowing .

Soon the parts will be here and Ill show the rest...

Well started this thread Oct 11th and happy to say I have all three cars done today 11-1-2021

With the help of  the train tender, eBay and Chuck for three rail.. and of course Chuck that sold them  to me a while from the for sale  in this forum   I was able to get original  copper journal  3 axle trucks they not only look better they run way better over the 022 switches

So what I read here is  Rich Art has a stamped R from the insides BUT as you can see my has VW and the other two have VWE  97  and the other VWE 102  stamped from the bottom inwards and a sharpie   written  black and one with gold  markers

Do you think these are early Williams cars? or still might be Rich Art Trains cars, have any idea ...  here's some pictures

thanks for all the help along the way ...daniel

*************** UPDATED INFO,,.

with a little research from  the article about rich Art trains  is stated..

         The blue cars were all equipped with 6-wheel trucks, just as the Lionel originals were, and the red and orange versions came with 4-wheel trucks, just as the originals were made. These products were initially developed through a partnership between Art Varney and Dick Wheeler and were later distributed by Bill Doomey

Which explains the V-W  stamping on mine..

so it seems what I have are the pre Rich art  trains  that rich art must of got the molds (equipment)  to keep making them this time using the R for  his production