Problem with Kadee Couplers.

LaidOffSick; we need ya!

 

I'm sure he'll have the answer...

 

Thanks,

-Mario

I believe what is happening is the coupler shank on either the car, the locomotive, or both is binding hard up against the side of the coupler box.  

 

The fix for this is to cut back the end of the coupler box enough to allow the coupler shank to have a few more degrees of rotation relative to the pivot point of the coupler.

 

 

BTW, nice looking layout. 

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT 

In this view it looks to me like you have mounted the Kadee a bit too far under that boxcar, i.e. it is not sticking out far enough past the endsill of the boxcar. When body mounting Kadee couplers, it is important to have that lip on the gearbox cove plate, right at the endsill. 

Hot Water,

Thanks for your input. I was curious about that as well. I just mounted the coupler pad onto the predrilled holes that MTH had for what I assumed was for mounting Kadee Couplers, do you usually drill your own holes? I had the Kadee Couplers #805 but the draft box was to long was hitting the wheels when the car went around a curve.

Thanks.

GNN PNUT,

Thanks for your comment on the layout I appreciate it. 

Also thanks for your input I have to go to work now but unless someone has a better idea that might be a fix.

 

 

---

FROM THE WEBMASTER...

 

Please do not quote an entire previous post (including pictures!) if all you want to do is make a short comment like this. It wastes bandwidth and slows the page loading for those members who have slow internet connections.

 

The Kadee #806 is a short shank coupler and short box. See if you can get enough room for the standard coupler #740 or#805. You can cut away an amazing amount of material from the standard box an still have it work. Or cut the coupler mounting tab off the engine trucks. I have done it both ways.

  Also what GNNPNUT and Hotwater said. Can you show us a picture of the underside of diesel and car?

 

Clem

I have never had to re-drill a single MTH freight car for body mounting Kadee couplers. The shims provided by MTH align perfectly with the side holes in the Kadee gearbox, and I have always used 1/72 X 1/2" long machine screws for the mounting hardware, as they always seem to cut their own threads into the provided holes in the underframe of the car. 

 

Concerning the draft gear box hitting the wheels on curves, that sounds to me like a much sharper curve than 072, plus the draft gearbox being mounted too far in-board.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking, trimming the "walls" back of the Kadee box.

 

Good luck.

 

PS - I agree, nice layout.

 

Thanks,

-Mario

The 806/743 are the recommended couplers for MTH diesels, especially the larger six-axle units (SD70ACe, AC4400, ES44). However, this restricts you to 42" radius (O-84) or larger on the six-axle units, depending on the cars coupled to it.

 

The work-around is to shave about 1/8" off the rear of the box on Kadee 804/805/740/745 couplers to allow the hi-rail coupler mount on the power truck to clear the box and not derail the locomotive. The standard-length shank should swing enough to prevent problems. We have a hidden 36" radius (O-72) curve on the primary main at the club and all of my scale-wheeled engines handle it fine with cars coupled and/or coupled to other locomotives. The GP35 is the only one I've encountered where you absolutely have to use an 806/743 coupler because the rear pilot is so close to the truck, but the locomotive is so short it doesn't make a difference.

 

On every MTH freight car I've done, I've used 805's or 740's and haven't had a problem. You do have to keep in mind, though, that using body mounted couplers on longer cars will restrict them to larger radius curves, so 27" radius (O-54) may not be in the cards for anything longer than about 40 feet.

 

By the way, you can keep the scale wheels and save some money if you have good track work and broad enough curves. Curve-replacement turnouts (e.g. O-72, etc) are hit-or-miss, though, because the curve extends through the frog, but I have run scale-wheeled engines through a Ross O-72 in one of our yards.

Thanks,  for the info I'll give that a shot.  I do have the #806 installed on both,  I'll switch out the boxcar to the #805 and trim the side walls of the pocket back and see how that works,  I will let ya know how I make out.

Watch my O Scale Kadee coupler video series... Parts 1, 2, and especially part 3 on my YouTube Channel. You have a couple issues there. Sometimes even on 072 curves and 6 axle diesels, you need more side to side swing from the draft gear box. Video Part 3 shows how to modify the box to fix on the diesel and how to get more swing out of it.

Also when you do Kadee conversions, make sure they are the proper height. The shims provided, don't always put them at the proper height.

       
       


Thanks laidoffsick,  I will take a look tomorrow and let post my results

To the good comments above, I will add that if you plan to MU those big six-axle GE's the medium shank Kadee is a good idea otherwise the cut levers will snag on each other in 072 and I think even 081 curves. It won't derail the engines, but you'll hear them snag and release through the curves (it's a "clicking" noise). The plastic Kadee box can be trimmed easily with a hobby knife for this purpose.

 

For diesels, we are talking about trimming the excess length from the back of the draft gear box, not necessarily from the sides. You have to do that so the three-rail coupler mount doesn't foul on the longer Kadee box. For really long equipment, like pig flats and auto racks, trimming the sides becomes necessary for 072, but you shouldn't need to do that for that engine and car if you use medium-shank couplers. I've run the exact same combination you show with medium-shank couplers. Those will solve your problem.

 

RM

Ok,  I cut the sides out of both draft boxes and reinstall the couplers,  that fixed the problem with the boxcar derailing.  Now I'm finding out that the locomotive is coming off the track going through some of the curves.  So I got to lookin and the scale track curves have a hump in them,  must be due to the bending of the rail.  I think that csn be fixed by adding another screw to pull the track back down so it's level. Anyone else have this issue with scale track?  I'm sure it's my fault for not putting more tacks and screws in though 

Although our layout is all Atlas O track, we glued everything down, i.e. the vinyl road bed as well as every inch of track/turnouts. Any screws that we needed to hold things in place, were subsequently removed after the glue set (2 or 3 days). Personally, I dislike using screws as they help transfer noise into the wood base structure.

I agree HOTWATER I only use screws due to I will be dismantling the layout in the distant future and want to try and reuse most of my track. I will take your advice though for my future layout.
Thanks!

Yep. Scale wheels will definitely find any severely uneven spots in your track, especially if you have the pickup rollers installed as the trucks can ride up on the center rail if the track is uneven.

That's exactly why I switch my scale wheels out for the Hi-Rail versions. I can live with the hi rail wheels cuz I want them to stay on the rails no matter where I run my engines.

       
       


I understand what you mean,  I was just about to  decide to sell my scale locomotives but I like the realistic look.  I never really gave it much thought to put in the hi rail wheels. Thanks saying something.

Hi Doug.

 

Seeing your layout build, I suspect that scale wheels wouldn't be a problem on your layout.

 

Initially, I was going to switch out the axles, but decided against it because I was interested in cleaning up our track at the club.

Not a problem on our layout Matt, but I run them down in SD too and that track has several dips that cause problems. I'm still gonna check out the new club down there too. The hi rail wheels just lets me run them anywhere w/o worry

Don't sell them NS, just swap the wheels out. Every engine I swapped, I found someone here on the forum to trade 2R wheel sets for 3R sets. Didn't cost me but $5 to ship my 2R wheels to their new owner. If you are frustrated with the 2R wheels, just try the swap, you will be pleased with the reliability.

I have observed this problem too, and I feel that using medium-shanked couplers on your MTH diesels pretty much eliminates this problem, even on o-72 (36"radius).  This is with long diesels like the sd70ace and es44ac.  I use the short shank couplers on my rolling stock because they are not as long as the diesels.

 

But I also agree that the coupler on that boxcar is set to far underneath, and is probably the #1 problem causing the derail.

Sorry but, I forgot to mention about all that clap-trap stuff still attached to the MTH truck. If you will remove all that crap, the truck will swing a LOT further and not hit the Kadee gearbox. I remove all that from every MTH and/or Lionel truck I ever convert to 3RS (although I don't do Lionel cars anymore).

I stopped using those short shank couplers for anything. Look at the shank where it protrudes from the draft gear box, it goes outward at an angle on both sides. That limits its side to side travel. When 3 railing with Kadees, we need as much side to side travel as we can get. Its better to use a medium shank coupler and modify the draft gear box to fit your application.

As additional information, I have found that the Weaver 2-Rail Bettendorf freight car trucks seem to work the best on our Atlas O track layout. Second choice is the MTH 2-Rail Bettendorf trucks. I model in the early to mid 1950s, so pretty much every freight car I have has the plain bearing journal boxes. The reason that the Weaver and MTH 2-Rail trucks seem to work best is, they have slightly wider wheel treads.