I am having an issue with a few of my proto sound 3 engines. When I turn on my DCS they will start up automatically if they are on the variable output channel.  Some won't turn on automatically.  This causes problems when i have a lash up. Also if my proto 3 berk comes up automatically it is going full foward. The others are stuck in neutral. If i turn them off immediately. I can restart them and run them normally. But it is really annoying.  And some of my proto 3 engines don't turn on automatically so i think it is something else. Is there a way to fix this issue? Apart from trying a factory reset with the remote. (Which didn't work)

Thanks in advance,

Aaron

Original Post

Too many engines on powered track can make this worse at start up.

You should make sure the wiring inside is not touching or going against the board set like in this post.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ce-needed-with-photo

If an engine takes off at full speed it maybe something different. I'm guessing here, but maybe it's locked into forward? Have you tried resetting it?

I will take another guess that the signal is weaker on the variable channel then on your fixed ones. So are there more engines parked on it? More track connected? Less power in? Have you swapped the channels to see if it clears up?

 

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

All channels have the correct voltage. I am using 16 gauge wire. There are no pinched wires. And it happens whether it is variable 1 or variable 2. It doesn't happen on the fixed outputs. Again they work fine. Its just they automatically start on the variable output channels. It also doesn't automatically start my proto 3 nyc heritage unit on the variable channel. But my proto 3 berk, es44ac and f3's all do it. If i immediately turn it off with the remote and turn it back on it works fine. I'm thinking it needs a hard reset with a transformer because the factory remote reset isn't working. Is there a way to do a hard reset transformer style with the dcs remote? Or i may just have to find 1. It seems like they are locked and they think the variable channel is a conventional transformer before i turn them off and back on with the remote. 

hi have you tried a different remote  you  might  see a difference, also you might try reload dcs remote version 6.10 into tiu n remote and see if this helps its always worth a try.

Alan

o gauge  trains ,music ,computer repair windows 7 and 10!

ASC Tech MTH school completed! 2019 !

I had a lot of issues with PS3 locomotives starting on there own or taking off dark and silent at full speed. I keep a few locomotives active on my large layout  but not all running. Finally solved this by installing a DCS Remote Commander on the track terminal strip farthest from the TIU.    No more missed watch dog signals.

IMG_7874IMG_7875

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apbrinkerhoff posted:

I tryed setting the variable channel to fixed to no avail. I tried resetting the Berkshire. At least it doesn't start at full speed anymore. I will try the commander route as well. Thanks for your help everyone.

Are you using the VAR output to apply voltage to the track starting from the minimum voltage?  (You have a lash-up on a track that is powered by a Variable output and use the thumb wheel to advance the voltage from 5 to 22 volts or maybe you set the starting voltage a 22 volts so that you don't have to spin the thumb wheel as much only one click and the track goes from 0 to max available power)

H1000

I use my variable channels set to fixed and they work fine. If I park too many engines or lighted cars in the sidings, any channel will do this. Even just one of another brand using TMCC/Legacy will cause this.

If the signal is weaker when you connect the variable channel to the fixed channel's track, then the TIU maybe damaged.

I would check track signal strength as mentioned above and the voltage at the rails. Does it matter where the engines are parked? If it does you may have power flow issues.

Have you had derailments that tripped the power? Do you have fuses protecting stuff?

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

apbrinkerhoff posted:

Yeah it's set to 22 V at start up. But the variable channel takes a couple seconds until the voltage is applied.  The fixed channel comes up as soon as i turn my bricks on. 

Okay, I use this exact same setup and have the exact same problem. Here is how to fix (work around) it.

Set the the startup voltage to 21.5. Scroll the power one click from 0 to 21.5 and then scroll one more click to 22. That will get you to max voltage without engines missing the watchdog. I have no Idea why this happens and even asked Jason at MTH about it and it was a bit of a mystery to him as well. I have noticed this behavior on all revisions of the TIU.

H1000

clem k posted:

I had a lot of issues with PS3 locomotives starting on there own or taking off dark and silent at full speed. I keep a few locomotives active on my large layout  but not all running. Finally solved this by installing a DCS Remote Commander on the track terminal strip farthest from the TIU.    No more missed watch dog signals.

 

Did you add the watchdog board?  That turns the DCS-RC into a continuous watchdog generator.

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H1000 posted:
apbrinkerhoff posted:

Yeah it's set to 22 V at start up. But the variable channel takes a couple seconds until the voltage is applied.  The fixed channel comes up as soon as i turn my bricks on. 

Okay, I use this exact same setup and have the exact same problem. Here is how to fix (work around) it.

Set the the startup voltage to 21.5. Scroll the power one click from 0 to 21.5 and then scroll one more click to 22. That will get you to max voltage without engines missing the watchdog. I have no Idea why this happens and even asked Jason at MTH about it and it was a bit of a mystery to him as well. I have noticed this behavior on all revisions of the TIU.

I've never heard of this. It is interesting. I use Lionel PH180s to my O scale so they output 18 volts. On my G scale, I run higher but that's DC. I set my packs up to 26 volts smoothly and fairly quick, and don't have any issues. Maybe it's the DC??

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

Engineer-Joe posted:
H1000 posted:
apbrinkerhoff posted:

Yeah it's set to 22 V at start up. But the variable channel takes a couple seconds until the voltage is applied.  The fixed channel comes up as soon as i turn my bricks on. 

Okay, I use this exact same setup and have the exact same problem. Here is how to fix (work around) it.

Set the the startup voltage to 21.5. Scroll the power one click from 0 to 21.5 and then scroll one more click to 22. That will get you to max voltage without engines missing the watchdog. I have no Idea why this happens and even asked Jason at MTH about it and it was a bit of a mystery to him as well. I have noticed this behavior on all revisions of the TIU.

I've never heard of this. It is interesting. I use Lionel PH180s to my O scale so they output 18 volts. On my G scale, I run higher but that's DC. I set my packs up to 26 volts smoothly and fairly quick, and don't have any issues. Maybe it's the DC??

And maybe the PH180 is the quirk?... Doubtful.

On my small home layout, I run my tracks on PH180's through the VAR1 & VAR2. This allows me to turn off track power from the remote or app. But I noticed this odd behavior when setting the start up voltage to 22 volts. I never took time to figure out why or do more testing, I know the above method just seems to work better and it's pretty easy to deploy.

H1000

FYI, you can't use DC through the variable channels.  Also, when you power up the TIU and apply the input power to all the channels at the same time, the variable channels will have a delay before they pass the power.  However, I don't see any WD issues when this happens, when the variable channels come up, they send out the WD.

One point.  If you are powering them up with a variable transformer, and advance the power too slowly, the WD can be gone before the electronics in the engine wakes up, that will cause missed WD signals.

You learn a lot of stuff about them when you hang a scope on the outputs and fool around with power options.

Engineer-Joe posted:

So your not setting the variable channels to fixed? You have them set to variable with the start set high?

You lost me here.

Yep that's exactly what I do. Here's my startup procedure:

1) use remote out let control to turn on 120v power for the layout. The TIU, WIU, PH180's, Accessory Transformer all turn on at the same time.

2) if using the WIU, wait 45 seconds for for the unit to boot up, connect to the TIU and transmit WIFI signal.

3) open app or use remote to advanced VAR1 and/or VAR2 from 0 to 21.5 volts and then advance to 22 volts for max power.

4) Have fun running trains.

I like using my variable channels this way because now I can cut power to one or two tracks without shutting anything down. Cut the power to the outside track, switch out an engine and then turn the power back on with my remote or app from right where I was standing, the inside track keeps running, and I don't have to go to a transformer or brick to kill the power or turn it back on.

Derailment situations are a bit interesting with the TIU like this. In the event that a breaker opens with the PH180, I'll command the TIU to set the power to 0 volts before I reset the breaker. That doesn't work, Even the though the remote or app says 0 volts, the TIU applies max power from the PH180 after resetting the breaker and all of my engines will miss the watchdog. At this point I have two options, I can zero the power to the track again, the TIU obeys and the engines go through a shutdown sequence, or I can use DCS to shut each engine down and restart to operate with DCS mode.

H1000

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

One point.  If you are powering them up with a variable transformer, and advance the power too slowly, the WD can be gone before the electronics in the engine wakes up, that will cause missed WD signals.

That's a good point that people may miss. I would guess that some maybe thinking it's better to apply power slowly on the variable channels?

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

You need a filter to separate the 60hz from the DCS carrier.  The TIU output goes to the left-hand and the 'scope connects to the right side.

DCS Signal Measurement Power Filter

 

 

 

 

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I have some PS3 engines that miss the signal and some that never do. I personally think it’s a PS3 board problem. I thought John had experienced this in a few engines a while back. John will your signal generator be guaranteed to stop this problem? Do you need one for each channel? I run four different loops using four different channels. $$$$?

Actually, I have no fix for weak DCS signals.  There are some fixes that have been tossed around involving paralleling chips on the TIU board, but they're not exactly mainstream yet.

The discussion was simply looking at the DCS signal.

clem k posted:

I had a lot of issues with PS3 locomotives starting on there own or taking off dark and silent at full speed. I keep a few locomotives active on my large layout  but not all running. Finally solved this by installing a DCS Remote Commander on the track terminal strip farthest from the TIU.    No more missed watch dog signals.

IMG_7874IMG_7875

So Clem..what exactly do these do? I have several unused that came from my early RTR sets. We will be moving to Fla and will be building a larger layout with more sidings..will these help?

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

For the Berk, try a conventional reset, which cannot be done with a DCS signal on the track or with a remote.

When you stay "automatically start," I assume you mean they start up, not that they take off.

I have many locos on powered tracks when I start up, and have never experienced any issues.

You are aware, I expect, that the watchdog is only sent when power is applied to the TIU input, not when you turn up the voltage.

I am using 4 Variable channels, all set to fixed.  Two are fed from an ancient ZW whose handles are left up.  Two are fed from a PH180.  No issues.

Be sure that all of your TIU black outputs are wired together, preferably right on the TIU with a jumper.  Do you have enough ground feeds to the outside rails?

RJR posted:

For the Berk, try a conventional reset, which cannot be done with a DCS signal on the track or with a remote.

When you stay "automatically start," I assume you mean they start up, not that they take off.

I have many locos on powered tracks when I start up, and have never experienced any issues.

You are aware, I expect, that the watchdog is only sent when power is applied to the TIU input, not when you turn up the voltage.

I am using 4 Variable channels, all set to fixed.  Two are fed from an ancient ZW whose handles are left up.  Two are fed from a PH180.  No issues.

Be sure that all of your TIU black outputs are wired together, preferably right on the TIU with a jumper.  Do you have enough ground feeds to the outside rails?

Some clarifications:

The watchdog is sent on a channel-by-channel basis anytime the TIU channel's output voltage changes from 0 to any higher voltage. Of course, the TIU must be powered on or it will not work at all, let alone send a watchdog signal. I use passive mode with my TIU..none of the inputs are used. Transformer track power direct to tracks.

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

willygee posted:
clem k posted:

I had a lot of issues with PS3 locomotives starting on there own or taking off dark and silent at full speed. I keep a few locomotives active on my large layout  but not all running. Finally solved this by installing a DCS Remote Commander on the track terminal strip farthest from the TIU.    No more missed watch dog signals.

IMG_7874IMG_7875

So Clem..what exactly do these do? I have several unused that came from my early RTR sets. We will be moving to Fla and will be building a larger layout with more sidings..will these help?

They send out a watchdog signal on initial power on.   These are also converted to give continuous watchdog signal, Gee I hope I stated that correctly ?  Somewhere there is a thread about these used for watchdog signals on sidings.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
clem k posted:

I had a lot of issues with PS3 locomotives starting on there own or taking off dark and silent at full speed. I keep a few locomotives active on my large layout  but not all running. Finally solved this by installing a DCS Remote Commander on the track terminal strip farthest from the TIU.    No more missed watch dog signals.

 

Did you add the watchdog board?  That turns the DCS-RC into a continuous watchdog generator.

John I have the kit but never built it  

apbrinkerhoff posted:

All channels have the correct voltage. I am using 16 gauge wire. There are no pinched wires. And it happens whether it is variable 1 or variable 2. It doesn't happen on the fixed outputs. Again they work fine. Its just they automatically start on the variable output channels. It also doesn't automatically start my proto 3 nyc heritage unit on the variable channel. But my proto 3 berk, es44ac and f3's all do it. If i immediately turn it off with the remote and turn it back on it works fine. I'm thinking it needs a hard reset with a transformer because the factory remote reset isn't working. Is there a way to do a hard reset transformer style with the dcs remote? Or i may just have to find 1. It seems like they are locked and they think the variable channel is a conventional transformer before i turn them off and back on with the remote. 

My PS 3.o F-3's do the same.

John, I tried this on a 3 foot programming track, is the signal too weak to go a few inches? It seems a little rediculous that we are using old technology so the new tecnology will work and incurring additional costs if you dont have one of these things lying around, and I don't. This sounds like an MTH problem and by that I mean they haven't made a move to correct it. I have 2 brand new PS 3.0 locos that only run in conventional mode. They come up negative in programming and runnig in DCS.

Keep beating that drum Bob, it's not like we haven't heard it before.   I doubt he's looking for your critique of model train command systems, but that's just a guess.

BOB WALKER posted:

Many of the operating problems that come up in these discussions are due to the 1960's technology which is the basis of these systems.

The broken record strikes again... Please tell me how this helps solve the OP's problem?

H1000

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