Protosound 1 MTH K4, stuck in reset mode

Rockershovel posted:

...MTH K4S with Protosound 1, advertised as having new battery...

First time if asking, it powered up and ran nicely to and fro.. chuff noise, some “cab chat” at one point, for no obvious reason, but after a while it went into a sulk. Sits there making two bells, then with the air pump noise going and nothing else. I’ve checked the transformer terminals as described, tried Reset 18 as described in the manual, and in a couple of variations described elsewhere - no useful response. 

...Turned off the power and gone to bed.

Does sound like it's as you describe "stuck in neutral".  Did you verify that the "new battery" was new AND a good?  When you shut off the power, how long did the engine sounds last?  If the idle sounds did not last for at least 7+ seconds then it is likely that the installed battery is no longer good.  Replace w/ a verified good battery.  Note:  you can temporarily use a 9-volt alkaline to see if the engine starts and comes out of neutral.  Otherwise get a new Ni-Cad 9v (8.4volt min) or spend another $25 for an E&W BCR.  The new battery usually fixes the neutral lock.  If the engine still does not come out of neutral you might need to use a MTH reset chip.

Search the forum for proto1 stuck in neutral for more guidance.

Thanks for that. Interesting what you find by minor variations in search words; I’d already turned up various threads about sine waves etc, which didn’t seem useful as I have a KW transformer, which definitely appears in the list in the manual. 

However I’ve now turned up this https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-will-not-exit-reset , which seems a good description of the problem. Batteries are cheap, so I’ll try a new 9v alkali and see what develops. 

Nope. New 9v battery, completely inert. Battery works fine in another instrument. Replace the new rechargeable battery, reverts to cycling through “two bells, compressor” 

Same problems, my recently acquired PS1 E-8 20-2169-1 will run for a bit then stop and go into neutral mode all on it's own.

Checked battery was at 9.1v, did the 18 engine reset procedure, disconnected smoke and couplers wires, pulled and re-seated chip, unplugged and re-plugged all board connectors, checked and re-positioned the truck power pickup leads.  When its powered down, it does continue the sounds and eventually you hear the "fart" sound and fan shuts off. 

The only think I haven't tried as to separate the boards and re-seat them.  I'm close to ripping out the PS1 and replacing it with a simple e-unit reverse board. UGH

One thing forgot to mention, at one point I had nothing except smoke at startup. While the shell was off, I touched the chip and low and behold the sounds started again. That's why I pulled and re-seated the chip.  I really hoped that would fix it, but it did not.  I still think there might be a contact issue with the connector pins on the chip making good contact.  I've got some de-oxit, so I may try that and then reinsert the chip again. 

“are you aware of the need to raise the voltage over 10V, then lower again it to exit startup/ reset mode”

thats an interesting comment, because (a) no one else has offered it (b) it contradicts the Instructions with the loco. Anyway, I tried it, without result. 

Since it has been mentioned, I lifted the tender shell and it does, indeed, have a new battery. Since charge has been mentioned, the Instructions mention “giving the battery a full charge” by leaving the engine under power for 16-18 hours! I’ve also seen a mention in these of charging by leaving the engine under power for 20 minutes, so I’m trying that. 

I see in the Instructions, mention of “reset 18” during which you “press the whistle button, and wait for a garbled bell sound”. Does this mean, holding down the whistle lever throughout? Because Reset 18 is easy enough to identify, but pressing the whistle lever, releasing it and waiting produces no effect; nor does holding down the whistle lever for 3-5 seconds 

You will probably have to take it to a MTH service center and have them run a 'FIX' chip through it.

Yeah, THAT’s not happening. I don’t believe they have anyone in U.K. and I’m not spending $100-plus in shipping. 

Ive asked the seller for a refund. It can be their problem. If I can’t agree that then I might try to swap in a Dallee reversing board and Hi Line board. If PS1 gives all the trouble I’ve read about on this board, it isn’t worth spending money on to revive it on this loco. It’s a nice model but without reliability, it’s not worthwhile

I've found that early PS1's (and at least one other brand of traditional electronic reversing unit I've encountered) are particularly sensitive to minimum voltage.  When you move the throttle to zero in order to leave reset there must be very near zero volts at the track.  You shouldn't have a problem if you're using a KW but it's worth a check.

At least one of my units with PS1 (early model) will only leave reset occasionally, and it's directly related to this.  Most of the later ones, if not all, leave reset correctly every time. 

Nonzero-volts-when-throttle-off is most frequently a problem with several types of electronic transformers, Powermasters, etc. and normally not with traditional transformers.

Additionally I've found that in some of these situations all that's necessary to ensure zero volts at zero throttle is to place another load on the track in addition to the locomotive, perhaps a lighted passenger car or caboose, particularly if it employs traditional lamps rather than LEDs.  In these cases it will ensure that voltage is dragged down to zero as the throttle is closed.

 Mike

So, it’s had 35 minutes to charge the battery. Loco lights come on and off as I apply voltage and shut it off. I’ve tried a lighted caboose on the track - there is definitely zero voltage, everything is off.

I can identify Reset 18, but can’t get the “garbled bell” sound, either by holding the whistle lever, or pressing it once and waiting. 

I find that the MTH “fix chip” is $35 so I’ve ordered one, as an experiment. 

Rocker, are you sure it is a FIX chip and not a MAKE PS chip?

I've tried my engine with a Z1000 and Z controller.  I also tried my MRC dual handle, don't remember what the exact model is. Both power supplies exhibited the same symptoms. to the engine.

Dont know a FIX chip only the "MAKE PS " one.  That will resurrect a 3 bell chime when the board is scrambled.

What's a "FIX" chip ?

Is your K4 a premier or a Railking model? The Premier sku number always starts with 20- while Railking models start with 30-. If yours is a Premier model it was NOT one of the engines that would scramble the chip. Put a lighted passenger car or lighted caboose behind the engine. Then raise the power to less than ten volts, then turn the power off and turn it on again slowly. Get a BCR instead of a battery. The Proto-1 engines are great and i run them without problems. But, I have replaced all the batteries with BCR units. I believe the only Premier models that were subject to the chip scramble issue were the Big Boy, Hudson, Shay and the Santa Fe and L&N F3 engines. There were several Railking engines that also had the issue. 

You mean there’s MORE of these chips? It’s a PS-1 Reset chip, apparently.

Ok, that’s enough. The seller will accept a return so that’s my preferred option, although I COULD just wire the pickups straight to the motor and run it on DC - there are uses for a loco like that in UK

Having read the manual, I can’t imagine how anyone ever thought that any part of this system, was a good idea. I’m very unimpressed with it; I have a 12vDC BLI 2-8-0, and HOn30 loco, with a QSI chip actuated by DC on/off pulses and it works very well. 

It’s a Premier, not a Rail King. 

It’s a nice looking model; when I first got involved with O Gauge, I wanted a K4 in my collection. It will be well received on club nights, I’m sure. 

I’ve tried the “lighted caboose” thing and achieved no result. I have confidence in my transformer - I was testing a Williams diecast scale Hudson with it the other night, and it moved smoothly and controllably, and everyone says its uncontrollable. My other locos Run slowly, without problems. I have a multimeter, and I’m sure there is nil volts at OFF.

Rather against my better judgement, I’ve ordered a BCR. If that doesn’t work, I’ll hot-wire it and run it on DC, and keep it for club nights. 

Well, FFS. I tried the handles because I was out in the garage.. it moved slowly and controllably down the test track, stopped, and won’t move again. I have no clue, at this point. 

One final thought, You could remove the board set and send just the board set to me instead of the whole locomotive. I could reset it and return. I have done this with a fellow forum member in the Netherlands and it worked out well. 

Rockershovel posted:

Well, FFS. I tried the handles because I was out in the garage.. it moved slowly and controllably down the test track, stopped, and won’t move again. I have no clue, at this point. 

Mine' s doing that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hWqc60Yykg

Runs great then stops all of a sudden and goes in the start / neutral / program mode or what ever  stopped ansd 2 dings is.

I share your pain. If I can figure this out, will let you know ASAP.

“One final thought, You could remove the board set and send just the board set to me instead of the whole locomotive. I could reset it and return. I have done this with a fellow forum member in the Netherlands and it worked out well. ”

Thanks for the offer. I’ve now ordered a BCR so I will try that, try the PS1 reset chip, then it’s decision time..

Do you have continuity on your track? Dirty track.? I have cleaned track and/or wheels and have great improvements in operation.

I had this same problem. I called Midge at MTH and purchased a new chip. Now it runs great. Be sure and tell her to add the sound files to the new chip. She will need your MTH model number.

I put a Cruise Commander in mine 13 years ago and it still runs fine.

I’ve only tested it so far on my workbench, 5 or 6 lengths together. I checked it as a matter of course when I started having problems. It isn’t the only loco I’ve had on that track - the Williams Hudson was running the full length at only 6v and power seems good with the meter. 

How much was the new chip? If the new BCR and PS1 Reset don’t achieve it, that would be a good direction to progress in. 

Buying a BCR will not resolve this.  Also you need to be very specific on sounds and such heard when applying power.  Use a brand new alkaline for test to ensure good battery if you do not have shutdown sounds to play to know current battery is good.

When voltage first applied at 10-12V range, you will get your two dings and engine will transition into idle sounds.  It is NOW IN THE RESET STAGE.  Voltage needs to be less then 10V when using direction button to get it into FWD.  Otherwise engine stays in reset and believes you want to program.  Will not move.

If voltage less than 10v and you hit direction button and it does not move but rather repeats the 2 ding start up, the memory chip on the top board got scrambles.  Only dealers have the Various fix chips.  The Make PS is ONLY FOR ONE SYMPTOM.  The three clanks which means the engine has a software conflict.

Being a PR or RK DOES NOT Matter same PS-1 board and same troubleshooting technique.

Lastly, if you try to get to Reset Stage 18.  Power up to 16V let engine start up.  The lower voltage and raise per manual to move to reset stage 1.  You get one ding, if you do it again, but can not hear 2 dings.  Your stuck in reset position 1 with an engine ID conflict.  Again a special chip with a procedure I wrote up on this forum years ago.  It had to do with old QSI coding that would allow engines to have ID assigned otherwise they would not operate on the layout until you triggered it.  The problem was MTH Software did not want to use it, but if the ID Memory got set wrong in a shutdown, you did not have the capability to overwrite it without an QSI chip that had the software to do it.  Hence engine would not work because if thinks you want it not to operate.  MTH solution was a new chip with correct software to over write it and skip ever looking at that memory state.

As far as some other folks issues especially with motion if the engine otherwise trys to operate, inspect the bottom board carefully.  Motor diodes get hot and they can desolder themselves and traces do burn up.  Usually visible.  Other issues can come from component failures with these boards that are now 25 years or older.  G

That’s very informative, thanks.

it seems clear that this system has inherent weaknesses which derive from its excessive complexity, and are not worth resolving because they could recur, at any time, for no apparent reason and without warning. 

I’d like to keep the model, it looks very nice and it will be a success at club nights, but I have no interest in the control system. 

I will try the BCR and Reset Chip, because they are already ordered. If that doesn’t solve the problem I will simply Hotwire it to run on DC for the present. Longer term I will look into a conversion using the Dallee boards or something similar 

I know we covered this before but, on first start-up,

With engine on track, raise voltage up above 10 volts, I usually go up all the way.

Then lower the voltage down, but not off with the throttle until you hear a air release hiss.

Turn throttle all the way off, and raise again, engine should be running.

As always thanks GGG and Chuck, you're knowledge is gold.

@hawkshaw was it the actual chip bad and exhibited the K4 dead issue or like mine, randomly stopping ? 

Mine seems like the chip is not making good contact and I'm, very interest in changing it if that's the solution.

Never had to do this, but is it possible to re-load the sound files onto a PS 1 ?

Thanks as always, Mike P.

MR P, No you can not reload the sound file in PS-1 the chip has permanent Firm ware on it.  Your issue does not sound like the chip as much as the bottom board dropping out.

If you have another bottom board swap it.  A few transistors and such keep the relay energized to keep it in motion.  There are separate components for fwd and reverse but also common diodes in the power section for either.  Plus diodes for keeping top board energized.

You can certainly, remove and clean pins on chip, and also on top board.  I would be more suspect of bottom board and would swap it first.  G

Rockershovel posted:

That’s very informative, thanks.

it seems clear that this system has inherent weaknesses which derive from its excessive complexity, and are not worth resolving because they could recur, at any time, for no apparent reason and without warning. 

I’d like to keep the model, it looks very nice and it will be a success at club nights, but I have no interest in the control system. 

I will try the BCR and Reset Chip, because they are already ordered. If that doesn’t solve the problem I will simply Hotwire it to run on DC for the present. Longer term I will look into a conversion using the Dallee boards or something similar 

Yep conventional command and control in the 90's, very cutting edge until TMCC came along.    I will tell you there are plenty of PS-1 running trouble free.  Most of the bugs where worked out by 97 and up.  Until DCS and PS-2 command control came around in 2000.   Key is good battery and if you have an early model, getting a chip with the later software.

One last thing, I can't remember for sure, there might be some issues with PS-1 on 50 hz versus 60hz. So not sure if that might not be a factor also.  G

I can’t help noticing that with each successive iteration of these instructions, they change in detail - the reference to the “air release sound” being an example. 

@chucksartor, yes we did cover it before. I tried it, it didn’t work, I replied to that effect. I’ve tried it again; it still produces no useful outcome. 

@GGG, if the loco made any sort of consistent response, I could describe it. It doesn’t: responses seem to vary at random, with the only consistent characteristic being that it is not possible to get the loco to run predictably, or for any length of time when it does run. 

I will also remark that there are no signs of damage to the boards. 

From the various threads on the forum, I can only conclude that MTH did not do the necessary development, or possibly tried to achieve too much, or both, and as a result there are various systemic problems which the loco is prone to, and any “fix” might end up the same way, or might not. There seems to be no way to tell. The actual control system seems to be an example of a well-known engineering fallacy by which the designer attempts to control and excessive number of functions by insufficiently differentiated inputs, resulting in unreliability and increasingly unpredictable results. 

I’m very disappointed. I have a couple of other On30 locos with QSI boards and they give no trouble at all. Also, tbh, I’m not much interested in whether these functions work or not, provided it runs reliably and produces whistle and bell sounds. 

I already have one MTH loco which has lost its electronics because a previous owner gave up and removed them. This one looks set to join it. 

Frequency issues between 50Hz and 60Hz? That really WOULD be the cherry on the cake... sounds increasingly as though this whole business is a complete red herring, with no possible useful outcome. 

One of the problems is that these locos are so rare over here, that the knowledge base just isn’t there, and anyone who DOES know, isn’t telling. 

I don’t want to actually damage the existing installation, because who knows; but this is what the RailKing loco which has lost its electronics, looks like inside. I assume the small black box in front of the motor, is a rectifier, because this loco runs nicely (forward only) on AC or DC

The K4 looks like this inside. I’m guessing that the small pcb between the drivers, is the rectifier? From comparison, I’d guess that the brown and orange wires are rectified DC output? Then I could take those directly to the motor, and it would run (forward only) on AC or DC. Add a couple of branches to the lights and it would be a good “club nights” loco...

I am not going to get into the criticism of the development.  It is a toy that they  put a computer in in the 90s.  Remember the 90s and your first computer.  Sorry was initially built for America.  60 hz.  Also built when all transformers where pure sinewave Lionel PW types.  Chopped wave transformers came later and the electronic had to be modified.  This is all primarily analog voltage discrimination technology designed in the 80s.  MTH has actually gone way out of there way for European standards with the new PS-3 and HO.  All European compliant emi etc...

Your first engine was a PS-3, has the 6 pin draw bar.  Yes DC motor like most HO. So a fullwave rectifier being used to take AC in and give constant DC out. Simple fix.

Your K-4 had two CV Boards for Lights.  That little board makes DC current limited for the markers in the chassis.  The upper board makes it for the shell lights and markers.

Yes you can gut it and do the same rectified for the motor, or put a simple reverse unit in the tender.  Keep all the light boards installed.

I have lost track of what is working or not for you, but make sure the pins on the engine pcb that the tether plugs into are properly soldered.  No cracks joints.

Ring out the tether. Can have intermittent in white or Yellow which is motor function (outside pins on the 4 pin connector/plug).

Same with inspecting diode solder joints on the bottom board.  Could be cracked.  Make sure top board plugged in well.  Pull chip with chip puller and reseat, don't press down too far.  Can use nylon washer to prevent.

But do you get the Clinks and Clanks when moving through reset state.  All the way to 18?  Or does it get stuck on reset state 1.

We are trying to help.  I am not moving to England and I doubt your moving here. Right

Truth is, I came into 3-Rail O Gauge to have a break from DCC On30. I don’t understand electronics and am not interested in the subject. 

Following the clinks and clanks to Reset 18, yes it does that. However it doesn’t appear to perform any of the functions. 

I’ve now boxed this loco until I decide what to do with it. It’s a nice model and it will look good in the cabinet, and be well received at the club. I wanted a K4 and I think it captures the look rather well. 

@ GGG, Chuck Sartor

so, if I understand you correctly, the boards in the loco run the markers on the loco, and presumably also the smoke unit? 

That means that the 4 wire tether must be (since there are no current collectors on the tender) track current to rectifier, track current to reverser, DC to one side of motor, DC to other side of motor? 

I’m finding big problems in U.K., that there is no accessible knowledge base, very little in the way of a used market, and it’s very difficult to correctly order parts as a result. It also tends to create excessive shipping costs and duty. If I understand you rightly, I could post off the tender to someone who understands the task, and get it back with a proprietary reverser and sound card (and bell, whistle would be quite sufficient) and I would be good to go? It would be worth my while to do that. 

Don't even need the whole tender, just the board set which is held by 2 screws. The 4 wire plug is hot and common AC from the rails, +and - to the motor. The smoke unit has its own circuit board, and not connected electrically to the main control and sound board. The marker lights are controlled by a constant voltage board in the locomotive, which also powers the cab and firebox lights. I'm starting to wonder if it's not something simple as a new tether.

As Chuck said, in my post I explained that the board in the engine are the Light boards for the engine.  Engine smoke and lights stand alone.  You can power up the engine without tender and all lights and smoke will work.  Switch for smoke under engine cab.

The tender gets AC power from engine via two center wires.  Sends motor power back to the engine motor leads.  Two outside wires.  Tender board does tender lights, sounds and motor control, coupler.

You could take tender shell off and send board/ chassis with tether to Chuck or anyone to diagnose.  Or take board off, usually 3 screws.  Send tether so it can be checked too.  G

Frankly if you want to keep it and not repair it, you can pull top board off and jumper two points and it would run in reverse.  But since your not electronic inclined send to some one who is would be better.

You haven't stated this before, but I'll ask. When the engine should be running, do you get a rapid fire exhaust sound? You get clinks and clanks, when you cycle to #18, (3 clinks, 3 clanks), do you get a wobbled bell sound? If not, try reversing the leads to the track, or reverse the connection at the transformer. 

I think a proper diagnosis is necessary, at this stage. I’m a professional engineer and if there was any pattern to this loco’s responses, I would see it. It clearly works well, mechanically.

What I was hoping for, was something similar to my BLI C16 2-8-0, which in 12v DC has a QSI board providing a limited repertoire of start-up sounds, bell and whistle controlled by the controller; switch on, hold about 3v, startup sequence (air pump, Dynamo). Increase power, chuff sounds as it moves away. Flick power off and on quickly, Bell. Flick reversing switch, whistle. Volume control in the tender; turn a screw. 

It’s as simple as that and works very well. If I could get that, on this loco, on AC, from the usual buttons on my KW I’d be well pleased. I’d be quite happy with just whistle and bell.

this whole control system offends my sense of the fitness of things, Occams Razor applies. Like most engineers, I have little patience at times. 

from hard experience, including having worked at the Post Sorting Office, I’d rather send a complete tender. I’ve SEEN what happens to parcels in the post, and (being an engineer with a lot of construction experience) I’m a firm believer in defining a scope of work up to a logical end-point; sending boards to the US and leaving myself with reassembly, makes no sense. 

If you could do that, email me with a cost and a shipping address and I’ll send it.