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I seen that  MTH 2013 Vol2 pg 127  is making 6 packs of the N&W 2 bay HL fishbelly hoppers.I am in my infancy in learning to  be  more prototypical of the cars pulled behind the Y's and Class A. How will these stack up as far as prototypical ? 

 

I am a  fan of Christopher's N&W modeling and  thought i remember  him comment before that Kohs (and maybe yoder)seems to be the only real prototypical hopper for that  era.

I have a few K line and Atlas HL hoppers. One is a bit larger than the other.

 

Can some one give me some more insight on the comparison of the above brands on which way i should go? (or point me to an earlier discussion since i am new to this 3rail subforum)

 

Is it to early to tell what MTH is doing with them or have they made these before?

 

As much as i would love to own(track down)  a couple  dozen of the Kohs , thats just not  in the cards at this time.

Last edited by Patrick H
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Back when I was trying to put together a prototypical N&W coal drag, I gradually learned the overall lesson that most mainstream rolling stock you see is just paint schemes slapped on top of a generic design. So it goes with the MTH N&W hoppers - the hopper design is just some generic they picked for all their fishbelly hoppers with multiple road names slapped on top. Most people are none the wiser and / or don't care. But for the select few 3RS enthusiasts this does not cut it.

 

For correct N&W hoppers your most affordable (and possibly only) non-brass option is to track down the 16 unique N&W fishbelly hoppers Atlas O produced over the years. This was a monumental task for me and I eventually gave up. I never understood with the N&W being such a popular railroad why no one has ever mass-produced an affordable correct N&W steam-era hopper.

 

Last edited by PC9850

A while back yes, I did. Jeb of JT's Megasteam purchased the Division Point CF caboose and the five Atlas O N&W hoppers I had collected. He too is on a mission to assemble the full train but is likewise having a rough time of it.

 

Since then I have narrowed my interests to 99% New York Central modelling. It seems to be a lot easier to collect.....

Last edited by PC9850
Originally Posted by PC9850: 

For correct N&W hoppers your most affordable (and possibly only) non-brass option is to track down the 16 unique N&W fishbelly hoppers Atlas O produced over the years. This was a monumental task for me and I eventually gave up. I never understood with the N&W being such a popular railroad why no one has ever mass-produced an affordable correct N&W steam-era hopper.

I found the exact same thing when I TRIED to put together a prototypical 50+ car steam era N&W coal train. Only the few Atlas O hoppers come close, and then there were/are the highly detailed brass 2-Rail N&W hoppers which seem to run OVER $300 EACH!!!  NO THANK YOU.

 

I gave up, and operate either my Class A or Y6b on manifest freight trains, with one of the nice Weaver brass N&W caboose models on the rear end.

Originally Posted by Patrick H:

I forgot to add  .....  So these MTH fishbellys  are a remake and judged before?

I believe so yes. You can also pretty much disqualify anything if it doesn't have the N&W's distinctive "peaked ends". This was the predominating style on the N&W; a few classes of hoppers actually did lack them but from what I understand these were minority oddballs and non-native classes.

Last edited by PC9850
For the steam era modelers, only the Atlas 2-bay cars will do until you move to brass. If you MUST have the various 3-bay cars (HA H8, etc) then your only choice is brass. Over the years I've managed to scarf up off ebay 5 cars in various stages of disrepair, including paint put on from an insecticide spray gun, I think.
If you can, haunt the several O scale shows. You might also contact the N & W Historical Society and find out whatever.
In a moment of insanity I looked into 3D modeling. Ballparked the cost for one at somewhere north of $250 plus the first cost of having the appropriate CAD file generated.
Anyway, I feel your pain.

Years ago, I always wanted Lionel's #456 Coal Ramp made from 1950, to 1955 with the two bay coal hopper.

I never did buy it, even at my LHS, which has a very neat set.

I always liked the car, until on the Intreee-Net I found a B&W photo. of the prototype car, I then lost interest in Lionel's version and I was able to pursue an Atlas 'O' car, which as you men state is the closest to the 'Real-Deal,' though made in plastic.

Lionel's 1950/5 model did not have the peaked top, ends, as Atlas' model and Atlas' model has most other similar details, to the prototype.

I guess, at the time Lionel would have had to get copyright permission from and make payment to the N&W RR?

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=456

Ralph

Last edited by RJL

I am not a 3RS person nor do I model the N&W, but I "have" to ask this question:

 

How close dimensionally is the MTH fishbelly hopper to the Atlas N&W one illustrated above ?  I note the basics [ ribs and location especially ] look the same.  If it is close, why not just buy those and add the peaked end ?  One could obviously upgrade the details as one saw fit in the process.

 

A very quick look at the MTH website shows that there are a ton of these cars in different road names and colors available now, especially in six packs.  Repainting and decaling would finish them off;  one would have to do the latter to get different numbers anyway.   And no need to put KD's on every car;  make blocks of three to five cars, say, and use scale dummy couplers within.

 

Just wondering.....

 

Best, SZ [ who used to run Williams ( remember the white plastic kits ? )and other hoppers through his table saw ....]

Guys,

 

I get where you are coming from. I am surprised no importer has jumped in to make an N&W triple hopper. I've recently run into another N&W modeler who recently switched to 2 rail and is beating the drum to the 3 rail importers also. I've been trying to keep my eyes open for brass for him. The HL was phased out and rebuilt into the H9 by the mid fifties. The car you'd be looking for is an H2a or H3.

For all N&W hoppers to 1998 a great reference book is called "Norfolk and Western Coal Cars" by Andrew Dow.

 

As for brass to fill in the meantime I'll try to make a list here. I've been thinking about making a list for all 0 scale items that are accurate or close for N&W. This list is off the top of my head for hoppers. There could be others such as scratch built Parri cars and some kits.

 

HL 1936-1956

HL PSC

HL Parri

HL Atlas 0 (Not brass)

HL International (bare bones)

 

HU 1923-1947

HUa PSC 

 

H1 1939-1952 (May have been in ballast service after)

H1 PSC

 

H2 1942-into 60s at least

H2 PSC

H2 Max Gray

H2 Yoder

 

H2a 1949 into the 60s at least 

H2a Yoder Single panel sides.

H2a Yoder Split panel sides

H2a PSC (I think)

 

1942-into the 60s 

H3 Yoder

 

1944-1951 composite  1951-into the 60s at least for the steel rebuilds

H4 PSC Composite wood and steel (No peaked ends on the H4 cars)

H4 PSC Steel rebuild (No peaked ends on the H4 cars)

 

H9 1950-into the 60s at least 

H9 Yoder Single panel sides

H9 Yoder Split panel sides

 

1957-Into the 60s at least

H10 PSC

Last edited by christopher N&W
Originally Posted by christopher N&W:
As for brass to fill in the meantime I'll try to make a list here. I've been thinking about making a list for all 0 scale items that are accurate or close for N&W. This list is off the top of my head for hoppers. There could be others such as scratch built Parri cars and some kits.

Were any of the Arvid Anderson brass kits suitable as N&W hoppers? 

I have never been a big coal hopper fan. I have never studied them and couldn't tell you one from another just by looking at them. But...

 

For me, the H9 hopper is THE classic look of N&W hoppers. For whatever reason, this the one that I remember from my childhood wanderings through many an old N&W Magazine.

  

H9 Hopper

This is the one coal hopper that I would most like to have a string of behind my Y6. Because it is short, more cars will fit in a defined space.

 

Oddly enough, these hoppers were to become a big burr under my saddle. In their later life, they were restricted to a speed limit of 25mph. You could hear the crews moan when they found out one of these were placed in the train. Especially when the train was light and otherwise could have made good time over the road.

 

 

 

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  • H9 Hopper
Last edited by Big Jim

Patrick,

I have a pair of the Yoder cars that I converted to 3 rail.  I put Atlas trucks on them.  They look like any other 3 rail car as far as wheel sets and couplers are concerned and they track very well.  You can see them any time that you'd like.

Recently I converted a Yoder dry ice car to 3 rail and it looks pretty good also.

Sorry that I missed your evening running trains.  Merry Christmas.

Norm 

The MTH fishbelly hopper is an accurate, nice looking model of the WM fishbelly hopper. CNJ, D&H, RDG, and LV had very similar hoppers. See the Wayne Sittner article in the November 1982 Railroad Model Craftsman. The MTH hopper compares well with the Yoder brass WM fishbelly hopper. I wish the MTH hoppers had been available before I bought Yoder brass hoppers.

 

The N&W HL hoppers are the same size as the WM hoppers but they have the peaked ends. In addition to the HL models listed by Christopher there was a late 30s model of the N&W HL hopper produced by RailCraft. I have a number of both the RailCraft and International cars. I bought them to kitbash to WM fishbelly hoppers before the Atlas and Yoder models became available. Here is a photo of an International N&W hopper kitbash. I removed the peaked end, modified the vertical braces on the end, and painted and decaled the model.

 

International WM hopper kitbash

Adding a peaked end to the MTH model would result in a reasonable stand in model of either the HL or H9 hoppers in the photos above. Modifying the vertical braces on the ends of the MTH hopper would result in an accurate model.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

 

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  • International WM hopper kitbash
Last edited by bowestym

Correction

 

I should have looked at the Andrew Dow book before I posted. The first 8,500 N&W HL hoppers had fishbelly sides but the last 4,000 HL's and all of the H9's that were rebuilt from HL's has sides that were straight from bolster to bolster. The sides would also have to be modified to produce an accurate model of the later HL's and the H9's.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

Last edited by bowestym

I  appreciate you guys  listing  additional options.  I will spend the extra bucks to have nicer prototypical hoppers  and  of course  try to score some deals. I ll have to think about what strategy to approach from  and what i want to have in the end....... 

 

Are there decal sets still available for these cars ?

 

I second Martin on the dry transfer preference. They're tougher to come by, though.
Perhaps one could track down wet, slimy decals for the dimensional data or, failing that, arrange to have special decal sets made up for the 3-bays. Given that there's usually a minimum order, whoever is bold enough to take the plunge could recoup some of his cost by selling the excess here.
I'm semi-fussy about dry transfers for road names, logos, et al (when I can find them), using wet slimy decals for dimensional data is something I can live with.

If you decide to do the decals, I bet he can get enough for six hoppers on a single sheet.

 

On the economic class warfare front, how would a USA- made brass hopper of limited production trigger that?

 

And what about Max Gray?  I will look, but I think he did a peaked end two-bay hopper, and his cars go for around $85. - about the same as the latest plastic cars?

 

And this is opinion:  okay to put Lionel trucks and couplers on a Max Gray, but blasphemy to cut them to make inaccurate trucks and couplers fit.  Again, opinion - you own it, you can mess it up if you want.

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