Prototypical N&W Hoppers

Back when I was trying to put together a prototypical N&W coal drag, I gradually learned the overall lesson that most mainstream rolling stock you see is just paint schemes slapped on top of a generic design. So it goes with the MTH N&W hoppers - the hopper design is just some generic they picked for all their fishbelly hoppers with multiple road names slapped on top. Most people are none the wiser and / or don't care. But for the select few 3RS enthusiasts this does not cut it.

 

For correct N&W hoppers your most affordable (and possibly only) non-brass option is to track down the 16 unique N&W fishbelly hoppers Atlas O produced over the years. This was a monumental task for me and I eventually gave up. I never understood with the N&W being such a popular railroad why no one has ever mass-produced an affordable correct N&W steam-era hopper.

 

I noticed you were selling  some of your N&W  stuff...  Did you get rid of it all?

A while back yes, I did. Jeb of JT's Megasteam purchased the Division Point CF caboose and the five Atlas O N&W hoppers I had collected. He too is on a mission to assemble the full train but is likewise having a rough time of it.

 

Since then I have narrowed my interests to 99% New York Central modelling. It seems to be a lot easier to collect.....

well in the meantime I guess ill have to pull mixed freight and try to  talk Jeb out of his cars when i see him...If he s as attached to them as much as his company homes i wont stand a chance.In the meantime i ll keep pluggin along..

I found the exact same thing when I TRIED to put together a prototypical 50+ car steam era N&W coal train. Only the few Atlas O hoppers come close, and then there were/are the highly detailed brass 2-Rail N&W hoppers which seem to run OVER $300 EACH!!!  NO THANK YOU.

 

I gave up, and operate either my Class A or Y6b on manifest freight trains, with one of the nice Weaver brass N&W caboose models on the rear end.

I forgot to add  .....  So these MTH fishbellys  are a remake and judged before?

 

 

I believe so yes. You can also pretty much disqualify anything if it doesn't have the N&W's distinctive "peaked ends". This was the predominating style on the N&W; a few classes of hoppers actually did lack them but from what I understand these were minority oddballs and non-native classes.

For a great learning source, look for a copy of:

 

Norfolk and Western Railway Coal Car Equipment: Carrier of Fuel Satisfaction

 

Available in paperback

 

ChipR

 

 

 

For the steam era modelers, only the Atlas 2-bay cars will do until you move to brass. If you MUST have the various 3-bay cars (HA H8, etc) then your only choice is brass. Over the years I've managed to scarf up off ebay 5 cars in various stages of disrepair, including paint put on from an insecticide spray gun, I think.
If you can, haunt the several O scale shows. You might also contact the N & W Historical Society and find out whatever.
In a moment of insanity I looked into 3D modeling. Ballparked the cost for one at somewhere north of $250 plus the first cost of having the appropriate CAD file generated.
Anyway, I feel your pain.

Years ago, I always wanted Lionel's #456 Coal Ramp made from 1950, to 1955 with the two bay coal hopper.

I never did buy it, even at my LHS, which has a very neat set.

I always liked the car, until on the Intreee-Net I found a B&W photo. of the prototype car, I then lost interest in Lionel's version and I was able to pursue an Atlas 'O' car, which as you men state is the closest to the 'Real-Deal,' though made in plastic.

Lionel's 1950/5 model did not have the peaked top, ends, as Atlas' model and Atlas' model has most other similar details, to the prototype.

I guess, at the time Lionel would have had to get copyright permission from and make payment to the N&W RR?

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=456

Ralph

Brasstrains and Alleghany have Yoder's N&W hoppers; I have a couple and they are of course extremely well done...    I would not pursue them for 3r as they would look awful with a 3r truck...

Not to worry, I have all my Atlas O turnouts modified, so that I can also operate 2-Rail SCALE truck equipped freight cars.

I am not a 3RS person nor do I model the N&W, but I "have" to ask this question:

 

How close dimensionally is the MTH fishbelly hopper to the Atlas N&W one illustrated above ?  I note the basics [ ribs and location especially ] look the same.  If it is close, why not just buy those and add the peaked end ?  One could obviously upgrade the details as one saw fit in the process.

 

A very quick look at the MTH website shows that there are a ton of these cars in different road names and colors available now, especially in six packs.  Repainting and decaling would finish them off;  one would have to do the latter to get different numbers anyway.   And no need to put KD's on every car;  make blocks of three to five cars, say, and use scale dummy couplers within.

 

Just wondering.....

 

Best, SZ [ who used to run Williams ( remember the white plastic kits ? )and other hoppers through his table saw ....]

Guys,

 

I get where you are coming from. I am surprised no importer has jumped in to make an N&W triple hopper. I've recently run into another N&W modeler who recently switched to 2 rail and is beating the drum to the 3 rail importers also. I've been trying to keep my eyes open for brass for him. The HL was phased out and rebuilt into the H9 by the mid fifties. The car you'd be looking for is an H2a or H3.

For all N&W hoppers to 1998 a great reference book is called "Norfolk and Western Coal Cars" by Andrew Dow.

 

As for brass to fill in the meantime I'll try to make a list here. I've been thinking about making a list for all 0 scale items that are accurate or close for N&W. This list is off the top of my head for hoppers. There could be others such as scratch built Parri cars and some kits.

 

HL 1936-1956

HL PSC

HL Parri

HL Atlas 0 (Not brass)

HL International (bare bones)

 

HU 1923-1947

HUa PSC 

 

H1 1939-1952 (May have been in ballast service after)

H1 PSC

 

H2 1942-into 60s at least

H2 PSC

H2 Max Gray

H2 Yoder

 

H2a 1949 into the 60s at least 

H2a Yoder Single panel sides.

H2a Yoder Split panel sides

H2a PSC (I think)

 

1942-into the 60s 

H3 Yoder

 

1944-1951 composite  1951-into the 60s at least for the steel rebuilds

H4 PSC Composite wood and steel (No peaked ends on the H4 cars)

H4 PSC Steel rebuild (No peaked ends on the H4 cars)

 

H9 1950-into the 60s at least 

H9 Yoder Single panel sides

H9 Yoder Split panel sides

 

1957-Into the 60s at least

H10 PSC

Were any of the Arvid Anderson brass kits suitable as N&W hoppers? 

Martin,

 

I'm not sure. I'd have to see. Hopefully someone else could chime in on them.

As I recall, Harry Roberts made  N&W hoppers, some of which were operational with his coal dumper. Not sure about accuracy, but I would think whatever Harry did would have been prototypical.

Allegheny Scale Models currently lists 15 N&W hoppers at $295 and up.  Mostly up.

 

ChipR

So my desire to put together a nice, medium sized, N&W steam era coal train of 50 cars, would cost me,,,,,,,$15,000?

 

We would rather take another Alaska Cruise on Norwegian Cruise Lines!!!!!

HW,

 

I'm with you on the cruise.

 

ChipR

We did it as a family in June of 2012 and I/we would do it again in a flash!

You guys leave via seattle?    no one visited....

Sorry, no time.  Fly into Seattle International Airport, get on the special bus which took us right to the pier, and the we stood in line for a few hours to get on the darned ship. After all that, it was FANTASTIC!!!!

15Gs, could have my own molds made.    Fabricating the ends out of brass if the MTH are somewhat close may be an option.  I ll pick one up as soon as LHS gets em in

Fabricating the ends for the MTH cars crossed my mind as well, but I shelved the idea after seeing close-up photos of the prototype. The peaked ends weren't just add-on pieces as would be easiest with the models; they were actually built into the entire design of the body:

 

I have been entertained by this thread, but that prototype hopper is a beauty.  Heretofore, I would not know one black hopper from another.  I did know that some had peaked ends, but I personally care more about other details.

In this case Bob the "peaked end" may be the single most defining feature of an N&W hopper. For the hardcore N&W steam guys a string just doesn't look right without them. Check this video for instance:

 

I have never been a big coal hopper fan. I have never studied them and couldn't tell you one from another just by looking at them. But...

 

For me, the H9 hopper is THE classic look of N&W hoppers. For whatever reason, this the one that I remember from my childhood wanderings through many an old N&W Magazine.

  

This is the one coal hopper that I would most like to have a string of behind my Y6. Because it is short, more cars will fit in a defined space.

 

Oddly enough, these hoppers were to become a big burr under my saddle. In their later life, they were restricted to a speed limit of 25mph. You could hear the crews moan when they found out one of these were placed in the train. Especially when the train was light and otherwise could have made good time over the road.

 

 

 

Patrick,

I have a pair of the Yoder cars that I converted to 3 rail.  I put Atlas trucks on them.  They look like any other 3 rail car as far as wheel sets and couplers are concerned and they track very well.  You can see them any time that you'd like.

Recently I converted a Yoder dry ice car to 3 rail and it looks pretty good also.

Sorry that I missed your evening running trains.  Merry Christmas.

Norm 

I wouldn't suggest anyone build a whole train made of brass hoppers, but there is plenty to look for in brass to fill in here and there to add some interest. I doubt anyone would regret getting some of the outliers even if the H2a types come along in a major production run. If you know what you are looking for and keep your eyes open deals do come along.

There's a Parri N&W hopper on eBay right now for a mere $349,

The MTH fishbelly hopper is an accurate, nice looking model of the WM fishbelly hopper. CNJ, D&H, RDG, and LV had very similar hoppers. See the Wayne Sittner article in the November 1982 Railroad Model Craftsman. The MTH hopper compares well with the Yoder brass WM fishbelly hopper. I wish the MTH hoppers had been available before I bought Yoder brass hoppers.

 

The N&W HL hoppers are the same size as the WM hoppers but they have the peaked ends. In addition to the HL models listed by Christopher there was a late 30s model of the N&W HL hopper produced by RailCraft. I have a number of both the RailCraft and International cars. I bought them to kitbash to WM fishbelly hoppers before the Atlas and Yoder models became available. Here is a photo of an International N&W hopper kitbash. I removed the peaked end, modified the vertical braces on the end, and painted and decaled the model.

 

Adding a peaked end to the MTH model would result in a reasonable stand in model of either the HL or H9 hoppers in the photos above. Modifying the vertical braces on the ends of the MTH hopper would result in an accurate model.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

 

Correction

 

I should have looked at the Andrew Dow book before I posted. The first 8,500 N&W HL hoppers had fishbelly sides but the last 4,000 HL's and all of the H9's that were rebuilt from HL's has sides that were straight from bolster to bolster. The sides would also have to be modified to produce an accurate model of the later HL's and the H9's.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

I  appreciate you guys  listing  additional options.  I will spend the extra bucks to have nicer prototypical hoppers  and  of course  try to score some deals. I ll have to think about what strategy to approach from  and what i want to have in the end....... 

 

Are there decal sets still available for these cars ?

 

Clover House sells a dry transfer set for the H-9 2-bay hoppers.  If I can get dry transfers for a car, I take them over decals.

I second Martin on the dry transfer preference. They're tougher to come by, though.
Perhaps one could track down wet, slimy decals for the dimensional data or, failing that, arrange to have special decal sets made up for the 3-bays. Given that there's usually a minimum order, whoever is bold enough to take the plunge could recoup some of his cost by selling the excess here.
I'm semi-fussy about dry transfers for road names, logos, et al (when I can find them), using wet slimy decals for dimensional data is something I can live with.

Or, get ahold of Bob2 and have his decal guy do up some sets at less cost (ALPS printer).

I tried making the N&W hamburger logo a while back (for a caboose) and ended up with a see-thru hamburger .  I need to contact Jerry Glow to see if he'd be interested in making some N&W decals.

If you decide to do the decals, I bet he can get enough for six hoppers on a single sheet.

 

On the economic class warfare front, how would a USA- made brass hopper of limited production trigger that?

 

And what about Max Gray?  I will look, but I think he did a peaked end two-bay hopper, and his cars go for around $85. - about the same as the latest plastic cars?

 

And this is opinion:  okay to put Lionel trucks and couplers on a Max Gray, but blasphemy to cut them to make inaccurate trucks and couplers fit.  Again, opinion - you own it, you can mess it up if you want.

The Champ CN-49 N&W Open Hopper set has everything you need for the HL hopper (or the 70 ton H2a). Of course Champ is out of business but you might find some sets by asking on various O scale lists.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

 

Max Gray produced a 3 bay peaked end hopper that is a reasonable model of the N&W H2a and later 70 ton triple hoppers:

 

I found Max Gray and US Hobbies peaked end offset twin hoppers in the catalogs that I have (one MG and one USH) but I didn't find a peaked end, rib side twin.

 

Here is a photo of a Rail Craft N&W peaked end twin hopper. The paint job is terrible but the detail is good, especially considering that this is a model that was first advertised in the September 1939 Model Railroader. These are metal models sometimes all brass but sometimes with tin plated steel components. All of the Rail Craft models are accurate prototypical models.

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

 

Larry,

 

Check your email

With the number of cars needed to make a decent size coal train, it would nice if someone would make a decently priced N&W steam era hopper in plastic.

Guys,

I used Komar dry transfers on most of my hoppers. His sheet covered most steam era hoppers. Really nice stuff. He has since retired. I have a bunch of sets I intend to keep.

 

Yoder had decals made up. Since I used Komar, I have a bunch of Yoder decal sets which I also intend to keep.

 

I only post this because these could be sources for the artwork.

Jim,

 

Not only that, but folks like me who model RRs that connected with N&W NEED at least a couple of their hoppers so we can supply coal to our steam locomotives and industries.  I've gotten used to the makers not offering anything for Seaboard Air Line, but N&W?!?!?!?  What are they thinking

 

(is there anything left of West Virginia?  N&W surely has excavated the entire state by now)

Hey, how about Scott Mann?  Scott, make us a decent N&W hopper will ya?

Just looked at my Max Gray peaked end two bay.  It has cutouts on the left side of each peak, so, no go.  I think what I would do while I waited was convert the Weaver plastic car to peaked end.  I bet Brother Love could do that in fifteen minutes per car - he produces things faster than I can think!  

 

I may have a Weaver plastic around here somewhere.  I will see what it would take.

That may actually be correct depending on the class of hopper. Check out Big Jim's photo on page 1.

There are 329 photos of N&W hoppers on line in the NS collection at VA Tech:

http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/br...=/trans/nss/cars/hop

 

Many N&W triple hoppers had a peak with cutouts, for example the H2a:

http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imageba...ern/full/ns2078.jpeg

However, the shape of the peak in the Max Gray catalog photo I posted above looks like it may be different from the peak on the N&W H2a in that photo. Its hard to tell in the Max Gray catalog photo.

 

Bob2, does the peak on the Max Gray triple look like the peak in the photo of the H2a or is it different?

 

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

          I put in a shot in the dark email to atlas about re issueing their hopper ,said it would be passed on to sales..... I got his  phone number so i am just gonna call him after the holidays and ask him straight up what it would take to do a re issue...

 

 

I did order a couple of the  suggested books to become more knowledgeable of the variances to see where they stand..

 

 

 

 

cleaned up to try and keep relevance

 

If I wanted these cars I would consider talking to Joe Hayter at Weaver Models. I believe they did 3000 B&O wagon top box cars. They also did the PRR H30 and MILW ribbed side box cars in lesser quantities. Seems as though demand for these cars is rather high and could be a good Weaver project.

The following is presented as a public service by a non-N&W modeller:

 

1.  A quick internet search -- granted not always accurate in real time inventory -- shows a number of locations such as Walthers that have the undec peaked end car [ 7751 ] in stock.

2.  The Atlas web site shows that they have the peaked end bodyshells in stock.

 

This info should interest 2 railers primarily, since I get the impression that most 3RS'ers prefer stuff ready to plop on the track.

 

Best, SZ

Well, Patrick, I did not se the dirty version, but except for the track those look real!  Nice work!

 

If you can buy the body shells, that would seem to be the answer.  Even I am tempted, and I do not do plastic!  I am going to build a Class A someday, when I get off the couch.  It will be 17/64, with cast iron drivers.  Just have to find two sets of Lobaugh Pacific drivers.

Photo #2 is the best car.  Tell me again what that is - an Atlas?  Quite a photo study in contrasts.  When I was a kid, I envied my wealthy friends with those giant couplers.

 

Please don't turn me into an N&W freak.

That would also be a good option. They are nice folks at Weaver. Again, the worst that could happen is they say no can do!

 

Simon