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Today is the start of the design and construction of version 2 of the PRR Panhandle Division.

Here is the blank canvas.

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The Prototype - Background & History

This layout is my second attempt to model the 7 miles of the PRR Panhandle that ran through the northern panhandle of West Virginia and Steubenville, OH. The Panhandle was a second mainline of the Pennsylvania Railroad that ran from Pittsburgh to St. Louis.  It existed from 1848 through 1995.  Grif Teller immortalized the double track bridge across the Ohio River in the painting “Crossroads of Commerce” which appeared in the 1953 Pennsylvania Railroad Calendar.  That bridge still stands and the track using it serves Weirton Steel (now Arcelor Mittal) and the brick refractories and businesses on the New Cumberland secondary.  Unfortunately from Weirton Junction through Burgettstown and points east, the track has been pulled up and the right of way has been converted to a hiking / bike trail.

I grew up in Weirton, WV in the 1950s & 1960s. I left in 1978, but still have family and other ties in the area. The PRR double-track bridge at MP 42.11 was always a source of fascination for me, even as a small child going to Steubenville with my parents and grandparents. However, it was not until I saw Teller’s painting (in the late 1990s) that I realized what I wanted to model.



Vital Statistics of the proposed Layout:

  • Size & Shape:  Folded dog bone – 11’ x 41’.  In addition there is a 10' x 6' staging yard behind the eastern backdrop.  Total dimensions are 11’ x 47’ (517 square feet).
  • Track:  Mostly GarGraves with some Curtis sectional curves, Curtis Hi-Rail turnouts, and Ross Custom Switch turnouts.  Mainline curves are O72.
  • Yards:  Weirton Junction, Weirton Steel, Coal Mine Spur, Staging.
  • Command System:  TMCC. Turnouts have Z-Stuff DZ-2500C switch machines and are both TMCC and pushbutton controlled.
  • Wiring & Blocking:  8 power districts will be supplied from 1 centrally located power distribution panel. Bus wiring will be used.
  • Power:  6 Lionel 180 watt PowerHouses and 2 Lionel 135 watt Powerhouses will supply power to districts 1-8. Two (2) K-Line PowerChief 120 transformers will power switch machines, lights, and some AC accessories.  All DC accessories, building lights, traffic signals and street lights get their power from various 3VDC, 5VDC, and 12VDC power supplies.
  • Signals:  Z-Stuff DZ-1060 PRR position signals (9) & MTH PRR signal bridges (2).  The layout is only signaled for travel in the counter-clockwise direction.


Differences between Version 1.0 and Version 2.0

I feel that the increase in size (primarily length) will contribute to a more accurate representation of the area.  Panhandle 1.0 was an ambitious design crippled by limited space.  Panhandle 2.0 is similar in its major design aspects, but the additional space will allow those features to be separated by scenery.  My intention is to avoid crowding layout elements and give a real sense of distance between the features.



Construction Goals:

  • Select a uniform height (50”) that facilitates working underneath comfortably.
  • Avoid grades and take steps to make track as issue-free as possible.
  • Make the fascia, table tops, and legs as attractive as possible; use high quality wood and stain exposed components. Plan for layout skirting.
  • Minimize the use of cookie cutter sub-roadbed.
  • Make aisles wide enough for comfort and provide space for seating at least a dozen people.


Operational Goals:

  • Allow the simultaneous operation of at least 3 trains on the mainline and up to 3 switchers in yards or spurs.
  • Use a signaling system that prevents collisions.
  • Have curves large enough to permit the use of the largest PRR locomotives and scale passenger cars (requires O72).
  • Permit the running of long trains (10-20 hoppers or 8 passenger cars).
  • Allow operating sessions to take place.


Electrical Goals

Panhandle 1.0 (2005-2016) was originally conceived (back in 1997) as a conventional layout (a tip of the hat to Rich Melvin for his help on conventional electrical blocking ).  In 2005, I decided to install TMCC, but was influenced by the arrival of DCS.  After trying a DCS/TMCC combination during construction, I decided TMCC was the direction to pursue.  In 2007, the change was made to solely TMCC.  Home run wiring and light bulbs (as block power indicators) were retained in the design.

For Panhandle 2, the electrical plan divides the layout into 8 blocks or power districts – 4 mainline, 1 separate loop, and 3 yards - with the ability to individually control power to the yards.  The loop and mainline (districts 1-5) and yards (districts 6-8) are all command controlled.  District 1, which is a separate loop for the kids (River Route), will be operable in either command or conventional mode.

  • Eliminate multiple power distribution panels.
  • Simplify and improve labeling for all wires.
  • Make use of 2-color zip-cord where practical.
  • Improve wiring reliability and crimping techniques.


Much more detail to follow, but those are my goals and thinking as I take the first steps down the road.

As always, your thoughts, suggestions, and questions are welcome.

George

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Last edited by G3750
Original Post

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George,

What a pristine space for your new layout!  Thank you for all the background information to refresh memory and add too what you wrote in the previous version.  Yes I think the additional length of the layout will allow you to do better justice to the original plan!  

Since you have photos of the room, have you taken position of the house yet?  Of course I know you will be busy with moving, getting settled, and a host of other tasks in the near future!

I am looking forward to seeing the new plan and how construction develops!  I hope to be able to see it firsthand since you won't be very far from me.

Mark Boyce posted:

George,

What a pristine space for your new layout!  Thank you for all the background information to refresh memory and add too what you wrote in the previous version.  Yes I think the additional length of the layout will allow you to do better justice to the original plan!  

Since you have photos of the room, have you taken position of the house yet?  Of course I know you will be busy with moving, getting settled, and a host of other tasks in the near future!

I am looking forward to seeing the new plan and how construction develops!  I hope to be able to see it firsthand since you won't be very far from me.

Mark,

I'm up to my *** in alligators, but here's a photo of the house taken on Friday (move-in day).

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And I'll invite you over when we are not totally surrounded and done going crazy.

George

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G3750, Congratulations to you and your wife for building such a beautiful home and even better a Fantastic Train Room.  The pictures are so good and Your Plan of action sounds so promising...We wish you the best of fun, safety, and Pleasure of building your New Dream Layout....Please keep us updated as to your Progress and ideas.  This will be an Adventure we want to be part of...Thank You. IMG_7901

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Updated 5/11/2017:

Yesterday, I rechecked the dimensions of the room and discovered that the terrain differs from the map, so to speak. The left half of the room is actually 13'8" wide, not 14'.  At 20'10" from the left wall, it narrows to be only 12'8" wide all the way to the right wall.  So, I am currently tweaking the layout a bit to fit those dimensions while retaining adequate (3' wide) aisle space along the front of the layout.  Fortunately, the general shape of the layout will be preserved.  This will work!

Another change to the track plan involves the addition of a hidden run-around loop in the Weirton Steel area.  This will allow a switcher to pull a load into the mill and then escape.

Updates to the track plan are coming soon.  This unpacking and setting up the house is really getting in the way of working on the layout! 

George

Updated 5/16/2017:

I have rendered, as best I could, the train room and the layout's placement within it.  Yesterday, I took a number of detailed measurements of the room and created a Visio drawing of it.  Then I placed a JPEG of the RR-Track layout on top of it.  It's not perfect, but it should convey the main idea.  Anywhere you see solid white or gray areas are aisles.  I couldn't extend those to fit the odd shape of the areas, so I created blank spots (grayish-blue) and labeled them as aisles as well.  The spaces are actually, in fact, contiguous.  I think we end up with an aisle at the front right of the layout that is minimally 30" (maybe 34") wide.

The leftmost door leads to the workshop. The center door opens to a closet under the stairs. The rightmost door leads to the roughed in powder room / furnace room. The stairs lead up to the main floor.

Train Room4

Your thoughts, suggestions, and questions are always welcome.

George

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George,

Yes I am able to pick out the aisle areas and see that the different colored areas are really one big, long space.  Please refresh my memory from the previous plan.  Are the red spaces pop-up access holes?  As I recall, the area to the right of the large mill is staging for trains and also single engines in the corners.  Are there some areas around the mill that you won't be able to reach easily once the mill is in place, or will it be removable?  It looks to me like your adjusted, previous plan works out nicely in the new, long space.

George,

I think the Panhandle was mostly double track.     Here is a suggestion for the mainlline that would give you more the look of double track.    This is just a schematic, not to scale.    It also gives you more aisle access.    You would turn the towns and industries and put them along the tracks.    Just an idea.

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Mark Boyce posted:

George,

Yes I am able to pick out the aisle areas and see that the different colored areas are really one big, long space.  Please refresh my memory from the previous plan.  Are the red spaces pop-up access holes?  As I recall, the area to the right of the large mill is staging for trains and also single engines in the corners.  Are there some areas around the mill that you won't be able to reach easily once the mill is in place, or will it be removable?  It looks to me like your adjusted, previous plan works out nicely in the new, long space.

Mark,

Yes, the red areas are pop-up access holes, either hatches or hand-only.   The area to the right of the mills (there's a divider there that might be difficult to see) is for staging and engine storage.   I also intend to install some shelving on the walls and / or back of the divider / backdrop in that area.  Not shown in the staging area is the small window near the ceiling that may be used to help vent smoke / heat during operating sessions. 

Not all of the red areas are visible in the diagram; some of them are under the largest mill (Open Hearth, that's 2nd from the bottom of the layout).  My intent is to have all mill spurs within easy reach.  Ideally, I don't want to be lifting large mills in/out of position.  And with a layout height of 4', I can simply roll under there and retrieve / fix what goes astray.

Thank you, I also believe the adjustments are working out as well.  The longer new space does lend itself to the original design pretty well.

George

prrjim posted:

George,

I think the Panhandle was mostly double track.     Here is a suggestion for the mainlline that would give you more the look of double track.    This is just a schematic, not to scale.    It also gives you more aisle access.    You would turn the towns and industries and put them along the tracks.    Just an idea.

Jim,

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to put this idea in front of me! 

And yes, the Panhandle was double-tracked, 3 tracked, and even 4 tracked in some spots.

With some tweaks, I think the eastern side of the layout already follows your direction.  However, I will take a crack at revising the Steubenville part and see how that plays out vis-a-vis room spacing.

Thanks again!

George

Last edited by G3750

George remember as you get older, crawling under the layout to reach an access hole, or crawling across the top gets less and less appealing..      So getting aisle acess to as much as possible is often works out down the road.     You could build it all 30-36 inches wide and put the tracks in reach almost everywhere.    Put the buildings and scenery toward the back.

Updated 6/5/2017:

We are having some dribbles of progress, little baby-steps towards getting the workshop and train room prepared for bigger things.

First photo is of the major set of shelves in the workshop. I am still finding bins, but we've gotten a lot in place.

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Second photo is of one of the spots in the workshop reserved for a pegboard.  The other pegboard will go on the wall to the right of the door.

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Here's a shot of the pegboard and furring strips awaiting the opportunity for assembly.

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Final shot is of the exhaust fan I found.  It's just above what will become the staging area.

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Like I said, slow progress, but at least it's a start. 

George

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Updated 6/9/2017:

I've made some progress on the lighting front.  I decided the obvious solution to getting identical lighting in both the workshop and the train room was to (DOH!) do the same lighting fixtures and bulbs.  Instead of going for shop lights in the workshop and track lighting in the train room, I am just doing track lighting everywhere.  I had a very helpful visit from a lighting sales person at the house yesterday.  He knew the products, lighting, and worked hard to understand what I wanted.  Track lighting with 4100K bulbs will give me the flexibility to play around with dispersing light and seeing how the color works in the room.  And it will be less expensive than LED shop lights. 

This is a big step forward and I'm pretty happy about it!   

George

Updated 6/22/2017:

Happy to report some progress:

  • After 45 days, we were able to put the car in the garage! :lol:
  • All major appliances are in and operational!
  • Garage is semi-organized!
  • First pegboard sheet has been installed.

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One 3' x 8' pegboard sheet will go below this one and another will be installed to the right of it. An access hole will be cut for the electrical panel.

Slow, but steady. I am using 2.5" drywall screws through the drywall into the 2"x4" stud beneath. The pegboard is attached with 1 3/8" drywall screws and fender washers into the furring strips. Yeah, it's overbuilt, but that's my approach after the hard-won lessons of PRR Panhandle 1.0. :lol:

So far, so good.

George

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George, Looks like you are moving along nicely!  You beat us, after roughly 2100 days in this house, we still can't get the car in the garage.  My wife keeps saying she will go through it all, but I'm not holding my breath.    Pegboard, no not here; my father-in-law put the old kitchen cabinets up all over the walls, and there is no room for pegboard here.  

Yes, you did come back in the nick of time for the Penguins victory!  

Updated 7/20/2017:

We've been in a logjam for awhile here regarding lighting the train room and workshop.  The components have been chosen.  A parts list is being generated.  I have procured a sample 5000K light bulb for evaluation, with a 4100K bulb on its way.  However, the first choice electrician is incredibly backed-up with work; I'm looking at a 3 month delay with no promise of an actual installation date.  Therefore, I have to go another way.  I am looking at another electrician that might be able to do the installation quickly (as within a month).

I should know more by next week.

BTW, installation of the additional pegboard was delayed by house-related items.  I hope to get to it today or tomorrow.

George

Updated 7/26/2017:

Today I tested 3700K, 4100K, and 5000K bulbs.  I am selecting the 4100K bulb for the workshop and layout.  It was bright without being harsh.

Also, I ordered (and paid for) the lighting components for the basement.  They should arrive on Friday or Saturday.

I have a quote for the labor and installation of the lighting is scheduled for next Thursday.

George

Mark Boyce posted:

George,

Sounds like you will have a well lit layout room and workshop soon!  

Mark, I hope so.  Lighting is a pet peeve with me. 

I also plan to light the underside of the layout in a consistent and useful way.  Still thinking about how I want to do it, but both rope light and LED strips are under consideration.   I will be using a rolling seat to move around under the layout.  Something like this...

prod_1833774212 - rolling stool

Still lots to think about.

George

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MNCW posted:

George,

  I found this link online which explains much about today's bulb technology. Glad things are moving along for you. 


http://blog.batteriesplus.com/...in-a-different-light 

Tom 

Thanks Tom!  This link spells out rather well what I'm using to influence my bulb decisions.  I need to have the same color range in both the workshop and the layout.  Otherwise, something I paint in the shop won't have the same appearance on the layout.  That would not be good.     And the uniformity of track heads and bulbs means I can move things around in a pinch if necessary.

George

Last edited by G3750
Mark Boyce posted:

I agree about lighting.  With cataract surgery on the horizon, I may get a reprieve from dark shadows.  However, even before I liked a lot of light on the subject.  

As to the stool, I think I would rather build high enough so I can sit on something similar instead of using something like a mechanic's creeper.

Mark,

Going through the process (one eye and then the next after a while) is somewhat annoying, but afterwards it feels like you have a new lease on life.  My distance vision is now excellent; I use glasses only for reading.  No problems seeing at night.  I'm a very happy man.

Yeah, something as low as a mechanic's creeper?  No thanks.

George

George, Martin's video is funny and creepy!

Thanj you for the comments on the cataract surgery.  Yes, I'm sure the process in between surgery is a bit annoying.  But the eye doctor says the end results will be like you said.  I have had bifocals or trifocals since I was 39.  But in the last year and a half, I have totally flipped from being far sighted to near sighted, having gone through 2 glasses prescriptions and everything is out of focus again.  The various rainbow and white halos around lights at night make driving rather tiring.  I'll be glad to go through the process with a positive end in sight.

Updated 7/29/2017:

Maybe not a ton of progress, but a lot of lessons learned. Someone back in this thread suggested that a 12" miter saw was overkill. (Thank you! You were right!) Unfortunately, I was thinking of the double bevel feature in the 12" saw (totally frivolous for my purposes).

Well, I bought the 12" saw at Home Depot and stuck it, unopened, in the garage while higher priority things took precedence. I kept looking at this huge and heavy box (which had been a struggle to get in the cart, in the car, and then into the house). Originally, I intended to put it downstairs in the workshop. However, I also planned to apply shellac or varnish to all cut pieces of wood. That would mean carrying the wood downstairs to the workshop, cutting it, carrying it back upstairs to the garage, varnishing it, and then taking it back downstairs for assembly. Seems like a lot of extra work for no good reason, doesn't it?

So, I decided that all cuts made with the miter saw would take place in the garage. That would allow me to varnish the cut wood and then take it downstairs for assembly. But how to store and maneuver this monster? I recalled that DeWalt made a rolling cart for it.

Yesterday, I went back to Home Depot and bought the cart.  As I'm pushing this massive item towards the checkout, I pass a construction worker (6'6", 280 lbs, orange vest) going the other direction.  I get the thing home, put it next to the unopened miter saw (again with much difficulty), and remembered the construction worker.  It occurred to me that a) I am no longer 25 years old; and b) you need to be the size of the construction worker to sling this miter saw and cart around. And getting the whole set up into the car (assuming it will fit  ) for transport to / from the Weirton Museum isn't going to be much fun.

Long story short, I took both the saw and the cart back to Home Depot and bought the 10" version.

What did I gain?

  • Portability: the ability to safely move the smaller saw around. And I already have a WorkMate stand that fits it.
  • Mobility: the saw (in locked position) will fit in the trunk of a Honda Civic or in the back seat.
  • Saved over $300.
  • More space in the garage.
  • Probably avoided hernia surgery.


Here's a photo of this saw. I love it!

NewMiterSaw_001_

On top of everything, I just made the first few cuts with it (got a 90 tooth finishing blade for it). The cuts are absolutely clean. The saw is quiet and it went through the wood like a hot knife through butter. I couldn't be happier.

George

 

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Updated 8/5/2017:

The new track lighting has been installed in the workshop and the train room!

Good shot of my pegboard getting utilized as well.

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That's motor inspector Samantha performing her duties - checking out the new lights.

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The final number and position of heads, as well as type of LED bulb (I currently favor 4100K) will be determined after the backdrop is installed.  That will give me something to evaluate lighting choices against.

This is a major step forward!

George

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Mark Boyce posted:

George,

The pegboard looks good as it is starting to be utilized.  So I take it Samantha has given preliminary approval,sign-off will be given when the backdrop and final lighting is in!  It looks great!!

Thanks Mark.  Yes, the pegboard is starting to fill up.  Just this morning I was wondering if I put up too much. 

Yeah, what was I thinking?

And as for Samantha, she's been very annoying and underfoot.

I'm still opening boxes of stuff and wondering why I brought them.  This is going to take much longer than I anticipated.

George

When 2 conductors in the same circuit are close, there is a capacitance effect.  This has no effect on a wire to a lamp, for example.  But when sends higher frequency signals, it could have an effect.  On my layout, I use 14-gauge stranded  THHM wire, available at Lowes, Home Depot, probably Menards, and many good hardware stores.   I keep hot and ground separated.

If you have 2 conductors from different circuits, say 2 hots feeding separate blocks, close together, you MAY experience inductance between them, that a signal on one induces a signal current on the other.

These issues aren't present if one only runs conventional.  But they MAY be if one uses a system that sends signals over the wires to issue commands to locos.

RJR posted:

When 2 conductors in the same circuit are close, there is a capacitance effect.  This has no effect on a wire to a lamp, for example.  But when sends higher frequency signals, it could have an effect.  On my layout, I use 14-gauge stranded  THHM wire, available at Lowes, Home Depot, probably Menards, and many good hardware stores.   I keep hot and ground separated.

If you have 2 conductors from different circuits, say 2 hots feeding separate blocks, close together, you MAY experience inductance between them, that a signal on one induces a signal current on the other.

These issues aren't present if one only runs conventional.  But they MAY be if one uses a system that sends signals over the wires to issue commands to locos.

Thank you for the insight.

George

Updated 8/9/2017:

Just a few random thoughts, ramblings, and updates.

  • While the train room is in pretty good shape, the workshop is lagging the play a bit. I've still got tools to hang on the pegboard, equipment to move downstairs from the garage, modeling supplies to get onto shelves, and books / software to get onto the bookshelves.
  • I've decided that I am moving the house-related supplies and materials (wall anchors, hooks, repair items, wall plates, old TV coax cables, etc.) into labeled bins and storing them in the closet or attic. This stuff will be rarely used, and it really shouldn't take up space in the workshop.
  • I have re-worked the RR-Track plan to plan (in detail) the Staging Area benchwork. This will be the first area constructed. Once it is in place, the backdrop will go in place. It's due to be photographed in early October.
  • I've located a source for the good plywood I want to use on the layout. Will probably place a small order in the next 1-2 weeks just for the Staging Area.
  • Will also start thinking about what track and switches are needed for Staging. That will get ordered in time for pickup at York.
  • I'm looking forward to next week's Steel Mill Modelers Meet in Bethlehem. Should be enlightening and directly applicable to the Weirton museum layout.


That's the current thinking.

George

Hi George, You have a very nice space for your layout and a great plan as well. Although I have not yet started to build my planned layout as yet I did purchase a rolling stool as you have shown in this thread, and afterward I determined that while sitting on the stool I would still have to raise the height of the layout for it to be comfortable working. It seems that my options are raising the layout height or lowering the height at which I sit while under the layout. I am considering a swivel boat seat mounted on a dolly. You may want to sit on that stool and have someone take a measurement before setting the height of your layout. Good luck with your build, it looks like a great plan. Rich

Chooch posted:

Hi George, You have a very nice space for your layout and a great plan as well. Although I have not yet started to build my planned layout as yet I did purchase a rolling stool as you have shown in this thread, and afterward I determined that while sitting on the stool I would still have to raise the height of the layout for it to be comfortable working. It seems that my options are raising the layout height or lowering the height at which I sit while under the layout. I am considering a swivel boat seat mounted on a dolly. You may want to sit on that stool and have someone take a measurement before setting the height of your layout. Good luck with your build, it looks like a great plan. Rich

Thank you, Rich.  I will check that out.

George

G3750 posted:

Updated 8/9/2017:

Just a few random thoughts, ramblings, and updates.

  • While the train room is in pretty good shape, the workshop is lagging the play a bit. I've still got tools to hang on the pegboard, equipment to move downstairs from the garage, modeling supplies to get onto shelves, and books / software to get onto the bookshelves.
  • I've decided that I am moving the house-related supplies and materials (wall anchors, hooks, repair items, wall plates, old TV coax cables, etc.) into labeled bins and storing them in the closet or attic. This stuff will be rarely used, and it really shouldn't take up space in the workshop.
  • I have re-worked the RR-Track plan to plan (in detail) the Staging Area benchwork. This will be the first area constructed. Once it is in place, the backdrop will go in place. It's due to be photographed in early October.
  • I've located a source for the good plywood I want to use on the layout. Will probably place a small order in the next 1-2 weeks just for the Staging Area.
  • Will also start thinking about what track and switches are needed for Staging. That will get ordered in time for pickup at York.
  • I'm looking forward to next week's Steel Mill Modelers Meet in Bethlehem. Should be enlightening and directly applicable to the Weirton museum layout.


That's the current thinking.

George

George,

That is a lot of great planning.

It is good to take the time to get organized, and put little used items out of the workshop.  My workshop will still use a section of the fat garage wall and a kind of temporary workshop area in the train room until all the benchwork is complete.

 I will look forward to seeing the photograph backdrop.  I take it you are looking for early autumn again along the Ohio Valley.

Do you mind me asking what kind of plywood you will be using and where you will be getting it?  I may want to do the same since we now live not far apart.

Good idea ordering track for pickup at York!!

Have a great time at the meet in Bethlehem!!  I'm sure you will come back with a lot of ideas and improvements!!

Mark Boyce posted:
G3750 posted:

Updated 8/9/2017:

Just a few random thoughts, ramblings, and updates.

  • While the train room is in pretty good shape, the workshop is lagging the play a bit. I've still got tools to hang on the pegboard, equipment to move downstairs from the garage, modeling supplies to get onto shelves, and books / software to get onto the bookshelves.
  • I've decided that I am moving the house-related supplies and materials (wall anchors, hooks, repair items, wall plates, old TV coax cables, etc.) into labeled bins and storing them in the closet or attic. This stuff will be rarely used, and it really shouldn't take up space in the workshop.
  • I have re-worked the RR-Track plan to plan (in detail) the Staging Area benchwork. This will be the first area constructed. Once it is in place, the backdrop will go in place. It's due to be photographed in early October.
  • I've located a source for the good plywood I want to use on the layout. Will probably place a small order in the next 1-2 weeks just for the Staging Area.
  • Will also start thinking about what track and switches are needed for Staging. That will get ordered in time for pickup at York.
  • I'm looking forward to next week's Steel Mill Modelers Meet in Bethlehem. Should be enlightening and directly applicable to the Weirton museum layout.


That's the current thinking.

George

George,

That is a lot of great planning.

It is good to take the time to get organized, and put little used items out of the workshop.  My workshop will still use a section of the fat garage wall and a kind of temporary workshop area in the train room until all the benchwork is complete.

 I will look forward to seeing the photograph backdrop.  I take it you are looking for early autumn again along the Ohio Valley.

Do you mind me asking what kind of plywood you will be using and where you will be getting it?  I may want to do the same since we now live not far apart.

Good idea ordering track for pickup at York!!

Have a great time at the meet in Bethlehem!!  I'm sure you will come back with a lot of ideas and improvements!!

Mark, I'm looking at Arauco plywood.  The closest distributor is XXXXXXXX.  Specs:

http://www.araucoply.com/infor...;fin=0&idioma=44

I'm also thinking about a higher grade of 2"x2" for the legs, but haven't settled on a source.  Shoot me an e-mail for the details.

 

WRONG.  There's a supplier in Tarentum - Allegheny Lumber.  The distributor is located in New Stanton, but they don't sell to the end-user.

Sorry about the confusion

George

Last edited by G3750

I just got back from the 2017 Steel Mill Modelers Meet and boy is my head spinning with new ideas! :roll:

Yeah, this could be bad.  Real bad. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  

First of all, I picked up a set of plans for an Open Hearth. It's huge. That got me thinking about reducing the size of the Staging Area and giving the steel mill about 22 square feet of additional space. Right now, I'm toying with the idea of eliminating the Blast Furnace altogether and replacing it with a more scale sized Open Hearth. I would model the inside as well; it wouldn't just be a 3-D backdrop building.

Nothing's been decided yet. Lots of ideas rattling around in my head. :?

(In the back of my mind, I hear my father saying "George, your eyes are bigger than your stomach")

George

G3750 posted:

 

Today is the start of the design and construction of version 2 of the PRR Panhandle Division.

Good grief!! I can't believe I missed the start of your new layout build...and I have been watching for it too. At least I found it now. I'll be following along with interest.

Looks like a beautiful new home you have too and I certainly hope you enjoy it.

Good luck with everything and time permitting, please post lots of detailed updates. 

Also, moving is rough, we moved 4 years ago this month and are still fiddling around trying to get things where we want/like them. It takes a while! I have a small layout up and running, but it needs an addition in the worst way. Also have my workshop set up, but nothing is in the right place, still some re-arranging to do to get things in more efficient locations. Hope I live long enough to get all this completed!  

The stool you have posted for below layout work is great. I have one of those and also a mechanic's stool (slightly lower and a little different) and I would never have made it without those two items. Might be the best tools I have. Harbor Freight has them pretty reasonably priced and they are of decent quality as well. I think they were like $20 each when I got mine. 

Last edited by rtr12
Mark Boyce posted:

I agree about lighting.  With cataract surgery on the horizon, I may get a reprieve from dark shadows.  However, even before I liked a lot of light on the subject.  

As to the stool, I think I would rather build high enough so I can sit on something similar instead of using something like a mechanic's creeper.

You won't believe the difference the cataract surgery makes! I had both eyes done in 2015 and the improvement was just incredible! I only need glasses for small close up work and reading really fine print. I had 'coke bottle' thickness lenses before that and still couldn't see anything. It's just amazing what they can do these days! Good luck and I hope all goes well, I think you will be really pleased.

Last edited by rtr12
rtr12 posted:
Mark Boyce posted:

I agree about lighting.  With cataract surgery on the horizon, I may get a reprieve from dark shadows.  However, even before I liked a lot of light on the subject.  

As to the stool, I think I would rather build high enough so I can sit on something similar instead of using something like a mechanic's creeper.

You won't believe the difference the cataract surgery makes! I had both eyes done in 2015 and the improvement was just incredible! I only need glasses for small close up work and reading really fine print. I had 'coke bottle' thickness lenses before that and still couldn't see anything. It's just amazing what they can do these days! Good luck and I hope all goes well, I think you will be really pleased.

You are the second guy about my age who told me he had it done.  I'm not feeling as bad since I usually thought of folks over 70 having trouble.  I was far sighted, and it reversed to near sighted in about a year.  I didn't realize how dim things were getting too.  Thank you for the good report!!!

Updated 8/19/2017:

I've been doing a lot of thinking (always dangerous   ) about the Weirton Steel and the Staging areas of the layout.  Here's the new look.

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v027-Right Side

The major changes are: 

  • Shrunk the Staging Area.  In the process I lost 1 holding track, but gained 22 square feet in the Weirton Steel Area.
  • Enlarged the size of the Open Hearth and modified its shape to better reflect the prototype.
    Open HearthScan10002
  • Modified the track arrangement in the Weirton Steel area to add a wye.  This helps in moving hot metal cars between the Open Hearth and the Blast Furnace, and also prevents fouling of the main line (in order to access the switching lead).
  • Added spurs in the yard that serve the building.  For example, the Blast Furnace now has a Highline, a spur for slag cars, and a spur for hot metal cars.  The Blooming Mill has a spur for ingot cars and for slab cars; an old photo tells me where the doors should be in the building.  The Blooming Mill is in the top right of the postcard below.
    card00173_fr

1950_snowstormtrainstation

I haven't fully fleshed out the dimensions of the blast furnace, but if I specify it as No. 1 (the smallest), I have some flexibility there (modeler's license).

Your thoughts?

George

PS.  Thanks to the Weirton Area Museum and Cultural Center for their use of the photograph.

Attachments

Images (5)
  • PRR Panhandle 2.0 v027-Right Side
  • Open Hearth
  • Scan10002
  • card00173_fr
  • 1950_snowstormtrainstation

George,

I only know what you share about steel mills and the railroad tracks that serve them.  That said, I think losing the one staging/holding track is small sacrifice to pay to expand the models of the mill.  You will have to selectively compress everything as it is.  The wye makes sense, and the extra yard trackage seems beneficial to me.

I'll keep watching for others' feedback and updates.

Updated 8/29/2017:

After much thought and measurement, I have constructed a detailed room plan and, within in it, a detailed track plan. Walls (except the top) are shown in black. You can now see the aisle space available.

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032

Let's take a close-up look at the Eastern end of the layout first.

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032-R

Moving right to left (east to west), here's a partial list of the changes:

  • Resizing of the Staging Area.  It is now 6'x11'.  White spaces within are open areas for the operator to stand.  The basement window is shown.  The back of the divider will be used to hold train storage shelving.
  • The Weirton Steel area picked up about 11 sq feet (not 22 sq feet).  I think it is enough to accommodate at least part of a blast furnace (cast house, kettle, and 1 stove) jutting out from the backdrop (divider).  The lime green areas are pop-up access hatches.  The back of the Open Hearth building will be open to give access to derailed cars.  The Strip Steel and Blooming Mills will be reachable from underneath.
  • The specific track geometries were tweaked.  We have a loop of track within the mill complex for turning a train.  And a wye was added.
  • I am looking at using the divider to hold a backdrop composed of Weirton Steel buildings (from a photograph).
  • The blackish/dark gray area is Standard Slag; track directly below it is for dumping slag.
  • Weirton Junction was lengthened.  The bottom most track is reserved for cabin cars.  The two tracks above it are for freight / steel related cars.
  • A doubled-sided backdrop divides Weirton Junction from Weirton itself.  On the Weirton Junction side, this will be a photograph of trees with some actual trees in the foreground.  On the Weirton side, the backdrop will climb as it heads up County Road.  It should just be high enough to split the scenes.
  • Aisles are approximately 2.5' to 3' wide.  There is one narrow 2' section near the bridge.  I had to make some real fine adjustments to keep the O72 curves.


Looking at the Western end of the layout:

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032-L

  • The bridge module has been redrawn to accurately reflect the size and position of the approach spans and the arch. Track east of the bridge will be positioned on fill.  I'm trying a new technique here.
  • Tracks west of the bridge have wide sweeping curves (O138 in one case).
  • The mountain is significantly larger (7'x8') than the one planned for Panhandle 1.0.
  • I am still debating the fate of the coal mine.  At this point, I have a lot more space to portray downtown Steubenville and I am inclined to use it for that purpose.
  • Below the level of the layout (shown in a yellowish color) is the River Route.  This will be a completely separate loop.  It will use the TPC-400 to permit conventional running and will give any smaller kids a chance to run a train.

 

I would very much like to hear your thoughts, comments, and questions.

George

Attachments

Images (3)
  • PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032
  • PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032-R
  • PRR Panhandle 2.0 v032-L
Last edited by G3750
Mark Boyce posted:

George,

Your plan almost overwhelms me!  I'm just looking forward to seeing it all come together!!

ROFLMAO.  Mark, sometimes it almost overwhelms me, too! 

There's a lot of work to do.

This time around, I am determined not to be driven by the need to get trains up and running quickly.  I don't have work and kids cutting into my "think" time and pushing me towards quick but temporary band-aids.  The plan is comprehensive because it needs to be.  There are just a lot of moving parts in this layout.  I need to get them right in order to make the layout perform well and look good.

George

Last edited by G3750

Updated 9/2/2017:

  • Sorted, labeled, boxed, and stored all the house-hold related items (screws, nails, electrical components, power strips, cable TV parts & pieces).
  • Sorted, labeled, boxed, and stored all the excess office supplies (diskettes, CDs, DVDs, computer components, cables, etc.).
  • Found three more boxes of odds-n-ends and tools over the past 2 days.  That's all in place or tossed.
  • Tossed 4 boxes of work related stuff.
  • Tossed a large number of orphan screws and unrecognized 40+ year old junk.
  • Moved the last 2 tables (work spaces) into place.
  • Started assembling my spray booth.
  • Took delivery of the first batch of lumber for the Staging Area.

 

It's Labor Day, so I'm laboring. 

George

From one who moved just over 4 years ago, that sounds pretty good to me! That's half the battle of getting settled in. The next half is remembering where everything is in it's new home. Even with the labels I still have to search for things every now and then. Sounds like layout building is getting close too! I think it was a couple months short of a year after the move before I got to layout building. Good luck and keep the updates coming!

rtr12 posted:

From one who moved just over 4 years ago, that sounds pretty good to me! That's half the battle of getting settled in. The next half is remembering where everything is in it's new home. Even with the labels I still have to search for things every now and then. Sounds like layout building is getting close too! I think it was a couple months short of a year after the move before I got to layout building. Good luck and keep the updates coming!

Thanks.  I find that if I don't write things down, I just won't remember. 

While the lumber has arrived, I would say that layout building (at least the Staging Area) is probably 1-2 weeks away.  I do want to get shellac on the lumber before too long to prevent warping.

George

Updated 9/9/2017:

  • Went through some storage boxes and retrieved a lot of research material.  That's now organized and filed so I can access it.
  • Hung all the artwork in the workshop and train room.
  • Finished assembling the spray booth.
  • Ordered a fence for the drill press.
  • Bought screws and carriage bolts, washers, nuts for the Staging Area bench work (and beyond).
  • Ordered switches for the Staging Area from Ross Custom Switches.
  • Estimated the amount of shelving that will be needed in the Staging Area.  Requested a quote from one of the vendors.
  • Started applying shellac to the Staging Area bench work lumber.  That's currently in the garage.


I still have a few more things to do in the workshop before I can declare victory - set up the table saw, get the work spaces cleared, and run the sweeper.  But it's very close.

George

Updated 9/21/2017:

And so the real work on PRR Panhandle 2.0 begins.

First, the clean slate. This is the far right end of the plan that will become the Staging Area.

DSCN2924DSCN2925DSCN2926DSCN2930DSCN2932DSCN2933


I believe, thanks to my wonderful wife Judy, that the issue with applying shellac has been solved.  She found some old t-shirts (cotton) and helped me apply the stuff evenly to the spruce 2"x2"s.  I have been pretty frustrated looking on-line for rags and only finding expensive bundles of painters cloths. The answer is pretty simple - go to Goodwill or a dollar store and buy some cotton t-shirts. :idea:

For spreading stain or shellac, old t-shirts cost less and work better than the commercial rags at Walmart, HD, or Lowes. And these stores don't even carry them. They have to be ordered. :x

We applied the shellac in the garage. The 2 bundles to the right are the poplar legs that will be used for the most visible parts of the layout. We are going to try out some stain on them tomorrow.
DSCN2934

In this photo, the topmost 2"x4"x10' had shellac brushed on (I will hide them deep under the layout). The 2"x2"s in the foreground had shellac applied with cotton t-shirts.  Wow, what a difference!

DSCN2935

We are officially rolling on Panhandle 2.0 construction!!   

George

Attachments

Images (8)
  • DSCN2924
  • DSCN2925
  • DSCN2926
  • DSCN2930
  • DSCN2932
  • DSCN2933
  • DSCN2934
  • DSCN2935
MNCW posted:

George, Glad to see things are progressing. I didn't notice if you said you only bought the legs so far? 

Tom 

Tom,

I bought all the lumber for the Staging Area, including spruce legs (2"x2").  But I didn't care for the legs.  And I didn't have a good way to apply shellac to them;  I wasn't happy with the way they turned out.  So, I am going use those spruce 2"x2" legs in the interior of the layout.  I bought some poplar 2"x2"s to use for legs that will be visible (to visitors) on the outer perimeter of the layout.

My short-term construction schedule is as follows:

  1. Complete the application of shellac to all the lumber to be used in the Staging Area.
  2. Install train storage shelves on the wall.
  3. Assemble the 3 train tables of Staging Area.
  4. Install the 6 tall 2"x2"s that will support the sheets of masonite (from table top to ceiling).
  5. Install the masonite (this will support a backdrop).
  6. Install the other train storage shelves on the tall 2"x2"s.
  7. Complete the photo-shoot for the backdrop.
  8. Install the backdrop across the left, back, and right (masonite) walls of the layout.

It's a guess, but the above should take me until January (I hope).

After that, I will work on the remainder of the layout (too many steps to identify individually).

George

George,

I have a bag of old tee-shirts of mine that are awaiting jobs like staining etc.  They do work good.  Yes, the thrift store is a great source if you don't have any on hand.  Doing that ahead of time is a good idea; better than waiting until benchwork is built.  The room looks very inviting and the track lights look like they will give ample lighting.  That is a good list of tasks in the correct order.  How many of us build then try to fit a backdrop in later.  I did, but I had rear access on my last N-scale layout.  This time the backdrops will go up early.  You already know what they look like.  I'll look forward to seeing your photo backdrops!

Mark Boyce posted:

George,

I have a bag of old tee-shirts of mine that are awaiting jobs like staining etc.  They do work good.  Yes, the thrift store is a great source if you don't have any on hand.  Doing that ahead of time is a good idea; better than waiting until benchwork is built.  The room looks very inviting and the track lights look like they will give ample lighting.  That is a good list of tasks in the correct order.  How many of us build then try to fit a backdrop in later.  I did, but I had rear access on my last N-scale layout.  This time the backdrops will go up early.  You already know what they look like.  I'll look forward to seeing your photo backdrops!

Yeah, I really learned my lesson regarding installing the backdrop first.  I never want to repeat that massive headache I suffered with Panhandle 1.0.

I'm looking forward to seeing your layout and backdrops.

George

Yes George, I'm looking forward to seeing it too!  

I may get a little extra time this fall, as I am only going to be working 3 days a week for a while.  First I need to get over this sinus infection so I can get my cataract surgeries, then I should be good to go!  I was clearing some stuff out of the area I want to start benchwork first, and stopped felling wiped out.  

Updated 9/27/2017:

I was having second thoughts about my initial choice of 48" layout height.  Panhandle 1.0 was at 46" at Steubenville and 42" at Weirton initially, but I elevated Weirton to around 44" in the re-build.  I was contemplating installing the new layout at an overall height of 44" (there are no grades).

I took the suggestion of a friend and mocked up various heights using a wardrobe box left over from the move.  I put a car on the box and tested the amount of bending needed to view it.  I believe I have enough access holes so that reaching for or picking up a locomotive is not a concern.  To my own surprise, I have settled on a height of 50". From the bottom up, that's:

  • 1.5" glide length (adjustable)
  • 46.5" leg length
  • 1.5" rib thickness
  • 19/32" plywood table thickness


Subtract approximately 1/16" by adjusting the glide and you've got 50" height floor to table top.

George

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