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k-25801 F-7k-29801 PA-1

I have a whole set of K-Line Fleet of Modernism cars and I'm looking for kind of an inexpensive engine to haul them.  I'm a scale guy and want it to look right in a period sense. My confusion is over the engine designations F-7 (there's a K-line example) and PA-1 (another K-Line example) but it seems that F means freight and P means passenger but in real life they sometimes actually alternated duties.  How can I zero in on which engine would truly match my FoM consist?  In pics above the first pic is an F-7 and second pic is a PA-1.   

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  • k-25801 F-7: F-7
  • k-29801 PA-1: PA-1
Last edited by Rich Melvin
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  A quick google image search shows you wouldn't be incorrect running just about any PRR motive power to pull these.  Four axle diesels like F3/7 or FA-1/2 are displayed in period pictures, as are six axle diesels like EMD E7(8s?)           I didn't find any PA-1 pictures, but the PAs were ordered as passenger equipment, and would be appropriate. Also shown are the GG-1 & T-1 moving them, although the T-1 was shown as an artists rendering.  

Tom

PRR had NO F3s or F7s designated for passenger service, or even backup.    F3s and F7s could be ordered with Steam generators, and higher speed gearing, but PRR did not do that.   Santa Fe did.    Steam generators were needed because all passenger cars in that era were steam heated.      Also, no PRR F3s or F7s were painted tuscan (maroon).   They were all dark green.    There were two sets of FP7s that were painted tuscan.   These were bought late in the mid 50s.    These were not assigned to principle trains: they served more on secondary ones.     A number of locos were ordered with steam generators as backups for passenger trains in case the locos assigned failed.    For example, there was a pair of Baldwin AS616 road switchers ordered and assigned to Mingo Jct Ohio on the St Loui line.    These were ordered with steam generators and what else they might need, but not high speed gearing, to be backups for the passenger trains running on the PRR Panhandle division from Pittsburgh to St Louis.

The PAs, E7s, and E8s were the locos ordered and used for passenger service.    The PAs were eventrually downgraded but very late as many trains were removed.   

I think the fleet of modernism cars were assigned primarily on the principle trains, not locals and secondaries.   Therefore I think the PAs would be a good choice or E7s.    If you use E8s, PRR did not have any E8B units, they did have E7B units.  

With all due respect to FlyPlanes-PlayTrains, in this case he is entirely incorrect.  You said you're "a scale guy and want it to look right in a period sense."

The PRR Fleet of Modernism was introduced in 1938 and lasted into 1947.  Some of the cars kept their FOM paint scheme as they were disbursed into other trains for a while after that time.  Since you have a full train of FOM cars, that dates your train as 1938-47.  East of Harrisburg, GG1's would be appropriate power (in green paint, not Tuscan red).  West of Harrisburg, K4s 4-6-2's would be most common.  The S1 6-4-4-6 and T1 4-4-4-4 also saw some use.  The early skirted T1 as produced by MTH represents the earliest production date (1942) whereas other models represent 1945-46 production.

The first passenger diesels on the PRR were EMD E-7's which arrived in 1945 so a set of these (also in green) could be appropriate.  Green Alco PA-1's didn't arrive until late 1947 so their use on a Fleet of Modernism train is questionable.  Note that tuscan red paint on passenger diesels began in 1952, well after the solid FOM trains ceased to exist.  As an aside, PRR F-3's and F-7's were never painted tuscan red and never pulled passenger trains.

Last edited by Bob

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996568321653



Thank you professor.  That's what I need to understand this.  According to a Wiki page the PAs were passenger engines mostly converted to freight.  And, the FoM trend ended in 1947 by PRR decision just as the PAs and Fs were coming on line.  That sorta hints putting a FoM consist with a PA or F would have happened right around late 1946 or early 1947.   I also don't understand the PRR policy that apparently 5 gold stripes were for passenger engines.   I wonder if all this history is well documented somewhere? 

@Bob posted:

With all due respect to FlyPlanes-PlayTrains, in this case he is entirely incorrect.  You said you're "a scale guy and want it to look right in a period sense."

The PRR Fleet of Modernism was introduced in 1938 and lasted into 1947.  Some of the cars kept their FOM paint scheme as they were disbursed into other trains for a while after that time.  Since you have a full train of FOM cars, that dates your train as 1938-47.  East of Harrisburg, GG1's would be appropriate power (in green paint, not Tuscan red).  West of Harrisburg, K4s 4-6-2's would be most common.  The S1 6-4-4-6 and T1 4-4-4-4 also saw some use.  The early skirted T1 as produced by MTH represents the earliest production date (1942) whereas other models represent 1945-46 production.

The first passenger diesels on the PRR were EMD E-7's which arrived in 1945 so a set of these (also in green) could be appropriate.  Green Alco PA-1's didn't arrive until late 1947 so their use on a Fleet of Modernism train is questionable.  Note that tuscan red paint on passenger diesels began in 1952, well after the solid FOM trains ceased to exist.  As an aside, PRR F-3's and F-7's were never painted tuscan red and never pulled passenger trains.

Bob,

Would any of the Alco PA-1s have been in Tuscan Red?  Using what you say as a guide, few if any of the train OEMs here got any of these color schemes correct.

The Pennsy PA-1's were repainted into Tuscan 5-stripe beginning in 1952.

Google is your friend for photo's.

Rusty

Rusty,

I find many pics on the web of (what look like) is that during the period FoM both F3s and F7s but without any consists and they are both Red and Green.   I'm assuming from what everyone here is saying is during the period FoM cars were in service the only F3s around would be Green.  But none of the ones I see have the 5 yellow stripes PRR apparently used even then for passenger motives.  I don't yet know that for certain.

@JohnB posted:

Foxer55,

     You said you liked scale equipment at keep in mind the Kline PA engines you have pictured are not scale models. They are a few scale feet short. If you want a Kline scale diesel look for a E7/8 (cannot remember which one Kline made but they are scale.

JohnB

John,

I have the K-Line FoM cars so I intend to make best use of them.  I don't believe the E7/8s were in service until after the FoMs had left service.  So that kind of limits me to F3s.

It has been mentioned above 2-3 times, the PRR had NO F3s or F7s painted tuscan red.     And they never used them in passenger service - they were freight only.    They did have just 2 pairs of FP7s, which are longer by about 4 feet and have big barrel water tanks behind the front truck,  That were painted tuscan for a while in about 1955.    They were never assigned to the Name Trains that used the FOM cars.  

It seems E7s are the most probable for the FOMs for diesel power and only painted green.

A K4 would be the best bet in my opinon.    Perhaps one of the 5 streamlined versions.

@Foxer55 posted:

Rusty,

I find many pics on the web of (what look like) is that during the period FoM both F3s and F7s but without any consists and they are both Red and Green.   I'm assuming from what everyone here is saying is during the period FoM cars were in service the only F3s around would be Green.  But none of the ones I see have the 5 yellow stripes PRR apparently used even then for passenger motives.  I don't yet know that for certain.

As mentioned above:

- PRR F3/F7 units were freight engines only.

- PRR F3/F7 units were painted DGLE (green) only, never Tuscan.

- PRR F3/F7 units had the freight single stripe only, never the 5 stripe.

- The only diesel that makes since to pull your full FOM train set is the E7 ABA built in 1946/47.  The PA and Centipede came in late 1947 and the Passenger Sharks not till 1948.

- Better to get steam: K4, S1, T1.

Note that Lionel, K-Line and MTH painted their F units in Tuscan which was incorrect.  Their logic was they simulated the longer E7/8 units to go with their shorty passenger cars.

ADDED: I type too slow.  I see prrjim beat me.

Added 2:  The first FT was built in 1939, the first F2 and F3 in 1946, but the PRR did not get their first F unit, an F3, until mid-1947.  

Last edited by CAPPilot
@bob2 posted:

K-Line really didn't do undersize, except for length (assuming we are talking about the extruded aluminum cars).  The only full size 3-rail PAs I am aware of are Lionel and MTH.  The ROW may be full scale; I have never measured one.

Kline 15" and 18" cars are not scale length. Only the 21" cars are scale length.

K-Line did do scale length E8s but both were painted tuscan red so its not correct in pulling the F.O.M. cars. Only the lionel and MTH scale E7s and E8 in dlge and Pa-1 in Dlge 5 stripes would be correct to pull the f.o.m. cars. Dont forget the Trainphone antenna for the roof of those diesels too!

It it mostly correct however.     Pretty much most of the 20th century, most passenger cars were about 80 feet long.   There were exceptions in commuter service, and some lines had some shorter cars for specific runs 

I don't think (I may be wrong), there were any 60 foot streamlined passenger cars which would be 15 inches.    There were some streamlined baggage cars that were in that range I think.    So for the most part, a 15 inch (60 foot) car would be be "heavyweight" vs streamlined.

A lot of older wooden frame cars were in the 60 foot range.

PRR had all the commuter cars around  Philly and NY that were P54 (54 feet between vestibules) which were about 60 feet long.   These were old fashioned cars that look like heavyweights but did have lighter construction.    Most of these were electried MU cars, but some did stay in regular train service.    I think some ran in commuter service around Pittsburgh too is loco pulled trains.

As far as I know PRR did not any modern cars in the 60 ft range that were loco pulled.    They were all at least 80 foot cars (20 inch) and very obviously in the named long distance passenger trains.

Now the other side of this coin is if you are running very tight curves and want short cars and want to run F units instead of E-units - do it.    It won't be scale, but most viewers won't know that.   Make  up a nice looking train and run it.    It will look better on sharp curves especially if viewed from the outside of the curve.    If you have around the walls layout and can view from inside, the sharp curves do not look so sharp.

Last edited by prrjim

Don't forget the 3rd Rail offerings of scale E7s, E8s, PAs, and FP7s offered in the correct Tuscan Red paint schemes.  The Tuscan FP7s, while having only two AB sets in Tuscan frequently pulled the train from Harrisburg to York and points south.  It eventually got replaced by E7s as PRR started using all FP7s in the freight pool. 

As for the fleet of modernism consist it was an interesting mix of cars.  PRR never owned streamlined baggage cars so some of the PB70 and BM70 cars got painted in that scheme which were 80' long.  Also several P70 steel coaches were rebuilt into the P70gsR class which were painted in the fleet of modernism scheme.  Those are very interesting cars.

Also, correct if I'm wrong, but didn't a majority of the Fleet of Modernism painted cars get repainted prior to diesels pulling it outside of perhaps the first two E7s 5900a-5901a and the Baldwin centipede of 1945?  Pennsy didn't buy another passenger diesel prior to 1948.  Maybe a K4 would be more appropriate or perhaps A GG1 as was suggested. 

Whatever you decide, it's your railroad.  Have fun!

SP had streamlined cars 77’ over buffers.  Some of the articulated units were a lot shorter than that.  My comment clearly said “except for length.”  Most 3-rail models are slightly small in width and height - when the discussion goes to 3-rail scale, I would assume those two dimensions to be over-archingly important.  And since 20” cars look funny on O-72, I would also assume 18” - or 72 feet - to be a nice compromise.

The Tuscan Red paint scheme for passenger engines started in August 1952.  Probably took a while for all engines to be repainted, because there is a 1954 photo of a E7 still in DGLE.

New PRR passenger cars were painted in the solid Tuscan scheme starting in 1946, and older PRR equipment in the FOM scheme where repainted to solid Tuscan starting in 1948.  So the FOM painted passenger cars were probable pretty rare by 1952.

So 1946 and earlier, they were FOM.  Between 1946 and 1948 there was a mix, and after 1948 the FOM scheme slowly went away.  My 1949 passenger train is mostly solid Tuscan with a few FOM cars thrown in.

Except for commuter cars, most PRR heavyweights were around 80' and lightweights were around 85'.

Also, if your cars are lighted you want the heavyweights to have simulated incandescent lights and the lightweights simulated florescent lights.  So the lights in your lightweights should should look brighter.

Last edited by CAPPilot

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