PS3 N&W J Jerky Movement PROBLEM SOLVED? Videos Added

Mark,  The test at the friends is where I would go.  No blink on the TIU is an issue.

 

You can try a factory reset on TIU and a reload of TIU software and see if it runs on FIX 1 after the load.

 

I think the TIU has issue with the higher voltage, more then the engine. MTH uses a Z-4000 and would have run it in command mode at 18-20V.

 

So if it runs fine at your friends house, the TIU is having issues with higher voltage, and the probably is causing issues with the PS-3 and some how corrupting the data signal that goes to the Boiler board driving your motor.   G

I am suspicious the TIU is the problem also.  Actually, I have had intermittent trouble with it almost since I got it in March 2014.  I thought the problems were with me, since I was new to Command control afather 45 years in HO, N and O.  I have other topics on the Forum on TIU.  It finally completly failed at 11 months.  After 2 months at MTH, I got it back, and all was fine until I got the PS3 J in mid May, and just got it back last week.  Now it may be the TIU is the problem.  I pushed the budget to buy the J.  My other DCS engines I bought used, one is a 2007, and the other is a 1997 upgraded to PS2.  I just took a "voluntary" early "retirement", so if the TIU needs repaired, I will have to run the J  with the Z750 controller for the foreseeable future.

 

Sorry to whine, I try to stay positive, but my total experience with DCS has been a disappointmeant at best.  I really, really like the sound on DCS engines, but the hassles I have had have made me really question the expense.  More times than I can think, I pulled the MTH engine off the track, put a postwar engine on the track, and ran without the sound.  It was more satisfying...      This is just getting too expensive.

Mark, I understand you perspective.  I would send the time line e-mail to Jeff.  He may approve the TIU as a warranty repair.  There are a lot of features you can control conventionally with PS-3, so I would enjoy running it with the controller. Once you get the button sequence down it becomes second nature.  G

G,

Thank you.  I will call Jeff, give him my history and see what he can do.

Yes I don't have any desire to use DCS to even close to it's fullest potential anyway.  I will only ever control 3 or 4 trains, and mainly like the sound and more even speed control.  I'll never have room for even a medium size layout, and have no interest in controlling switches, signals, etc remotely.  The button sequence won't be too bad on the Z750. I still remember the one I used Saturday to get the engine out of neutral.

thank you.

Hey Mark,My TIU shipped today.We don't live that far apart.I am home everyday now until 12pm.Monday and Tuesday are completely off.If you want,bring it here and we can try it on this TIU,which has been used very little and has no issues.I should have it by Wednesday,latest.If you wanna spend a day here in Ohio,we can try your TIU,my TIU,and believe it or not,I just ordered a spare TIU in case this one takes a crap.Let me know.I still think it's the engine,inly due to the fact that your other ones run okay on it.

And also,for the amount of money you have spent,why should your DCS experience be limited in any way?You paid FULL PRICE,you should enjoy ALL of the FANTSTIC features and all the bells and whistles that that TIU and MTH 611 offer and promise.This is not a craigslist deal,you should be covered under warranty whether the warranty has expired or not.I would demand ALL NEW STUFF,New TIU, new 611,because as I have stated,if MTH and all these keen fellows on here can;t put their finger on it,then it is not gonna happen.-Kenny

Mark, you can catch more flies with a dish of honey than a dish of vinegar.

I just sent a nice letter to Jeff at MTH.  Looking back on his first e-mail to me he said.

 

Hi Mark,

MTH technician and I have tested your engine multiple times and are 
unable to duplicate the problem using Fastrac O-36 figure 8 layout and 
Lionel CW80 & MTH Z1000 transformers.  Also tested in command mode.

Is there any other operational parameters?

If I do not hear from you the engine will be returned.

Best Regards,
Jeff

 

I copied excerpts of my results from this weekend's work on this problem.  I do see he says he used a CW80 and a Z1000.  I asked which input the CW80 was on, and what voltage it was.  I will wait for his response, and report back to this panel of experts!  

My wife and I were invited by Mark Strittmatter and his wife to try this out on his layout. They live about an hour's drive from us. The long and the short of it on the J was that I used MTH Z750 and Z500 bricks for both my power sources.  The PS2 engines didn't mind this at all.  However the PS3 J engine, is finicky and works fine using a transformer source on the Fixed input.  Mark used an MTH Z4000, at home I used a Lionel CW80 transformer.  So, the problem was with my setup and neither the J or the TIU or remote.  I took a video at his house and just now at home.  I will post them on YouTube and then on the OGR forum, but I won't get to that until tomorrow.

 

We had a good time visiting with Mark and his wifE too.  The ladies hit it off real well!

 

Many thanks to everyone who made suggestions and offers to come to my house or have me take the J and TIU to their house.

Glad you finally got to the bottom of it all and it was nothing serious (as in having to send anything back to MTH for repair). Still strange that the Z500 & Z750 would cause problems with it's fellow MTH items, but at least you now have the problem solved. Strange things happen sometimes.

Hi Mark glad you finally figured it out as i thought you would,glad your going to try my suggestion,and also glad you wrote a nice letter to MTH, I'm sure they'll work with you on the TIU.your friend always !

Alan

Mark,

Mark used an MTH Z4000, at home I used a Lionel CW80 transformer.  So, the problem was with my setup and neither the J or the TIU or remote.

The CW80 is not on MTH's list of transformers that work well with DCS engines for very good reasons.

 

Those who believe that the CW80 isn't a problem transformer when used with DCS would do well to revise their position.

I'm still confused... What caused the problem????

Mark, when you get back home, try something other than the CW80.  Barry's comment echoes what has been posted on the forum for years.  Happily, I have several ancient (postwar) Lionel transformers which DCS loves.

All is well with the Lemon, the Lime and Mark's J.  Sounds like your TIU worked fine too?

 

I wonder if one of your bricks is out of phase.  MTH had some bricks wired wrong.  That may be the issue, with those 2.  The CW-80 depending on year also has issues and the chopped wave is not recommended with a TIU.  Which is why MTH doesn't recommend using the Z-750 controller between the brick and the TIU.

 

So you should be able to connect the Z-750 brick to the Fixed 1 input and your TIU works correct?

 

Anyway glad it is resolved.   G

rtr, the issue isn't incompatibility.  It's that the controllers use electronics to reduce the voltage, rather than moving a transformer tap as in the old days, and the electronics drastically alter the wave for.  The bricks for those units put out a fixed voltage sine wave, which is fine.

 

The Z4000 uses different electronics, which minimizes wave form distortion.

I certainly don't have the answer but I'm glad everything is well.

Barry,

So the CW80 isn't good to use with the TIU.  Okay.  How about an old ZW?  I was able to acquire one of those recently.  I loaned my manual that came with the DCS and my copy of your book to another friend, who is more a newbie on DCS than me, so I don't have them on hand to look it up myself.  I won't use the CW80 on it again.

 

I had always connected the Z750 brick alone, not the controller.  I did notice something funny, I thought.  The Z500 brick puts out 18 VAC, whereas the Z750 puts out 25VAC.  I thought they should both put out 18 VAC.  If the voltage is wrong, that could be an indication it is bad.  Yes, I can understand if one brick was wired backwards, they would,be out of phase causing a problem, but why do the PS2 engines work fine with the two bricks?  

 

We are almost to the end of the 4th page, and no one has given me the obvious fix!!  I'm shocked!!  I expected someone to say by the end of the first page, Mark you wouldnt have this problem if you had bought Legacy!!   LOL

The old ZW is perfect, but use external breakers as internals are not reliable.

Mark.....do not use any PostWar transformer unless you put in a circuit breaker in line.....by the time the ZW breaker kicks in, your engine boards will be fried.....I know the new TIUs have circuit breakes nowadays......that will protect them (I would hope). The original TIUs were easily fried when DCS came out.

 

Make an in line circuit breaker box or put in in line fuses.

 

 

Peter

Here's a place to make in line fuses:

 

http://www.toytrains1.com/DCS_Tips.htm

 

 

Jim Barrett makes a circuit breaker box in one of the Back Shop issues.

 

Peter

Thanks RJR and Peter!

Thanks for the link, Peter!

 

 

I'm confused then. I do know the CW80's are a no-no with MTH stuff and the pure vs chopped sine waves, but I thought there were Z500 & Z750 only with no controllers being used here? I have used both Z500 and Z1000 with no controllers without problems (don't have a Z750). I'm going back to lurking now, so as not to further muddy the waters here.

 

Mark, before I cut out (pun intended), the others have given good advice about the old ZW and GOOD, FAST circuit breakers and/or fast blow fuses. Get them BEFORE using the old ZW with your electronic engines.

RTR12,

I've worked in electronics for 39 years.  On thing I've learned, don't think too hard about it, if it works forget about understanding why.  lol. Maybe that's what they are pushing me out with an early retirement at the end of the month.  :-)  Now I have to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.

 

Actually, I already have the fuse holder and fast blow fuses on hand.  I'll get the ZW, fuse holder, and fuse hooked up befor I run again!

Mark,

The Z500 brick puts out 18 VAC, whereas the Z750 puts out 25VAC.  I thought they should both put out 18 VAC.

Actually, if I recall correctly, both the Z500 and the Z750 are spec'ed to put out approx. 22 volts each, which is what the TIU's Variable Channels expect.

I see.  Thank you , Barry!

I will agree with all that on the electronics. Sometimes it's just pure magic and should not be questioned. Just get them going and then don't change anything. I have changed a couple of things a time or two and later wished I hadn't.  

 

I am a big believer in proper circuit protection no matter what you have for power. Ruining just one set of boards it much less than the most expensive circuit protection that I know of that is available for our trains.

 

For a retirement suggestion (in addition to enjoying it, which I am sure you will), I started playing with trains.

Mark,

Glad you got it working & very glad it wasn't your engine.  I, also, would like to know why the MTH bricks didn't work.  Unsolved problems like this bug me.

Mark, here's your money-saving tip of the day:

 

Fuses will bankrupt you, as they'll blow on every derailment.  Invest $6+/- per breaker.  No more than 10 amps.  I use 5's and 7's, which I got from Defender Marine.

Mark,  The circuit design and components on the PS-2 Power Supply board are much different, then the ones on the PS-3.  Let alone the processor and software differences.

 

So it could very well be that it is causing issues with the PS-3 processing DCS signals while the power is not a clean AC signal. 

 

Did you do a signal strength test on your J while at the home of a friend?

 

The hanging issue is why the TIU isn't working on just FIX 1 or is it?

 

My Z-1000 brick states 18V output for 100W.  25VAC is high, even unloaded in my opinion.

 

Did you test your TIU with your friends Z-4000? Did it work on his layout?

 

This could be a bad brick.   G

 I, also, would like to know why the MTH bricks didn't work. 

Maybe I'm missing something, however, I thought that the problem was the CW80, and that removing it was the solution.

I am back.  WE had lunch with our daughters and son-in-law after church, then I took a nap.  All this electronics thinking makes me tired.  ;-)

 

George,

Yes, after running the J a good long while with Mark's TIU, we substituted my TIU, powered by his Z4000, and put the J through the paces.  Everything worked great!  So it seems my TIU is fine.

 

RJR,

Good point about using a breaker instead of fuses.  Thanks for the source, Defender Marine.  That is one thing I have noticed about 3-rail railroading, the slightest derailment causes a short circuit, where some HO derailments don't short out the rails.

 

Barry,

Yes you did miss something.  The problem was there when I used the Z500 brick on a fixed input.  Everything worked fine using the CW80.  I do take seriously the point that the CW80 is not recommended, and will use the ZW once I get the proper protection in place.

 

rtr12,

Thanks about retirement.  I will have to call it semiretirement, as I will have to find another job.  However, I am looking for something that isn't as stressful as trying to keep up with the latest in telecommunications and meeting deadlines.  ;-)

 

Thank you to all!

Too bad about still having to work. Maybe you can take a nice long vacation before going back and then find something that's fun. May not pay much, but maybe there will be an opening at the local train shop when the time comes?  

 

At any rate, Good Luck with it all.

Hi Mark!

Good luck with your retirement and enjoy your trains now that you've figured out the problem.Any time you have any problem that i can help you with JUST ASK OK.

your friend always

Alan

HAPPY RAIL ROAD ING !

It seems to me Proto-3 doesn't like the higher voltage the MTH brick puts out.

 I suppose it possible  to have a faulty brick or perhaps  even higher   than normal house current. 

 

Anyway we know how to fix it if the same problem shows up again.... Thx Mark for the excellent play by.

Yes, it could be.  I see the Z750 brick is labeled for 22 V out.  The Z500 is labeled 18V out.

Gregg, house current would be controlled by the load and the applied voltage.  You may be thinking of higher-than-normal house voltage.  That is highly improbable if commercial power is being used, but not impossible.  It's easy to check:  CAREFULLY push the test prods of an AC voltmeter (set to the proper range), into a receptacle.  Here in northern Virginia the reading is 122 volts.  Much more than that would be a problem.

 

A transformer could put out higher-than-labeled voltage if there is a short between turns on its primary side.  Easily tested with an AC voltmeter.

Here is the first of the videos I promised.  Running the J on Mark Strittmatter's layout using his Z4000, my TIU and my remote.

 

Cool, That is a PEACH!  Who said Lemon?  Now that Z-750 brick is probably a Lemon! G

Here is the J running on my layout this past Saturday.  I am using the CW80 on Fixed Input 1 as we discussed over the weekend.