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Did a search but did not find my answer. my problem is with a ps3 preimer engine that is 3/2 rail capable. this engine is giving me fits as it just randomly stops and loses power for no reason. it seems like its a wheel ground issue. 

I have very clean track and all track rails are reciving power and ground around the spot where this engine stops.

took of the truck covers and cleaned all points of contact and reinserted the wheel sets. wheels sets cleaned also. 

put the engine in my cradle on the bench applied test leads and ran the engine while moving leads around to various wheel sets and moving the trucks around also to see if maybe a wire has a short. all worked as suppose too. 

took the shell of all wiring looked ok.

this engine has very little run time and is the only engine that is doing this. I tryed other ps3 and ps2 engines over the same spots where the engine in question was stalling. all worked flawlessly at all speed ranges.

how many wheels recive ground on a 3/2 capable engine when in 3 rail mode? 

can one buy non insulated 3 rail wheel sets for these engines? 

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I have this problem on turnouts, but not on regular track. Its a combination problem of poor ground and PS3 don't coast when power is lost. The slower the speed the more chance this happens. What engine is giving you the problem? what track are you using ? I run my diesels in lash-up mode, so I seldom notice this problem, but it does exist. 2 axle trucks seem to have more of a problem than 3 axle trucks. I cured one steam engine and I think I fixed a 2 axle diesel, I'm still test running it.

thanks guys, yes this is a four axle diesel. dave I did clean the black off the wheels with my dremel. clem k, yes this engine worked fine in a lashup so I decided to run it alone since it is a small four axle diesel. thats when I noticed the problem. 

dave, does mth sell 3rail replacment wheel sets that do not have the plastic sleve on the wheel sets. I have one like that. I got it in a used set on ebay. I realize it will make the loco no longer 2 rail capable, but that does not bother me. I may try it in one truck and see if it makes a difference. 

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Did a search but did not find my answer. my problem is with a ps3 preimer engine that is 3/2 rail capable. this engine is giving me fits as it just randomly stops and loses power for no reason. it seems like its a wheel ground issue. 

I have very clean track and all track rails are reciving power and ground around the spot where this engine stops.

took of the truck covers and cleaned all points of contact and reinserted the wheel sets. wheels sets cleaned also. 

put the engine in my cradle on the bench applied test leads and ran the engine while moving leads around to various wheel sets and moving the trucks around also to see if maybe a wire has a short. all worked as suppose too. 

took the shell of all wiring looked ok.

this engine has very little run time and is the only engine that is doing this. I tryed other ps3 and ps2 engines over the same spots where the engine in question was stalling. all worked flawlessly at all speed ranges.

how many wheels recive ground on a 3/2 capable engine when in 3 rail mode? 

can one buy non insulated 3 rail wheel sets for these engines? 

I have the exact same issue with a ps3 steamer and I'm looking for a fix.  Removing the wheel black doesn't work tried that already. could one simply not add a ground to a front or trailing truck in the case of a steamer.

Last edited by jeremy ferrell

Jeremy.... I fixed my PS3 0-6-0  2 rail version by having an MTH tech tie all the ground wires together from both sides of the locomotive and put a third pickup roller on.  It is now my smoothest, slowest, most reliable steamer and a whole lot better in the smoke department also. Never misses a watch dog signal also.

The premier steam has very poor ground due to the 2/3 rail setup.  

Roger,

I do not think they sell a drop in axle.  You would have to remove the nylon sleeve and replace it with metal.

Make sure the black ground screw is filed clean on the under side.  This is the black screw that attaches the ground wire to the top side of the truck.

 

 I feel bad for you guys when I read this. My stock MTH steam engines glide around my 2 rail layout and pass right over my dead frogs. Even on #7 switches!

I have a feeling they work better for 2 rail than 3 now?

With that in mind, it makes sense that the wires might need to be tied together like Clem said. I think certain MTH engines did this, and some didn't?

Funny thing also, is I have a 3 rail upper loop and the engines run good when the track works. It will break at the change of seasons with plywood expanding or track flexing. If an engine stalls for me, I know it's time to check the track. There's always a broken joint section causing the issue.

 It makes me wonder if people having issues might roll a lighted car around and watch for excessive flickering? or is it just those engines?

If the wipers are there for 2 rail, they all should be used for 3 rail. Seems like it would be an easy test with a meter to see which are connecting and which aren't.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The 2-rail/3-rail switch is notorious for causing this issue, though the real issue is trying to make the locomotive all things to all people.  I've had a number of people have me remove that switch and hardwire it to 3-rail operation, problem solved.

John,   Indulge me a little.  Can you describe what you actually do to remove the 2 rail cability because I’m ready to go down that road.  

Yes Clem, that has been talked about here and I've read it. My PS3 engines on my layout don't do this. I have dead frogs so I know they have to go over dead spots. A frog area on an Atlas 2 rail #7 switch is pretty big. So I am surprised to read this happening on three rail where I would have guessed it would be better.

 I would think there would have been a better keep alive circuit for the motors developed by now. I can only guess that it takes too much to do. Because I don't run into this much on my layout, I'm left to guess that the three rail crowd posting issues, have more consecutive dead spots than my layout?

Last edited by Engineer-Joe
jeremy ferrell posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The 2-rail/3-rail switch is notorious for causing this issue, though the real issue is trying to make the locomotive all things to all people.  I've had a number of people have me remove that switch and hardwire it to 3-rail operation, problem solved.

John,   Indulge me a little.  Can you describe what you actually do to remove the 2 rail cability because I’m ready to go down that road.  

Remove the wiring to the switches and just wire the two wheels together and the roller direct.  If you're not planning on running 2-rail, neither of these switches have any use, they just create problems.

Green wires show new connections, however don't connect the wheels to the roller.

MTH 2-rail, 3-rail Wiring

Attachments

Images (1)
  • MTH 2-rail, 3-rail Wiring

I suppose Joe, I never bothered.

clem k posted:

Joe there is something about PS3 that causes the locomotives to come to an abrupt stop when power is lost, can't coast over a small dead spot, they don't coast at all !!  Just like no flywheels !    My PS2 premier 2/3 rail don't have a problem. Even on my large turnouts. 

This has been discussed a few times, it's something in the electronics, the flywheel is there.

Hi Joe    Its more then dead spots, that shouldn't matter, this just started with PS3.  As you know I run long trains, my normal speed is 45 mph, I tripped the circuit breaker when train was rolling and it stopped dead resulting in me have cars all over the place, consist of all PS3 tunnel motors.  I have done that before PS 3 and never had an abrupt stop. When running my PS3 3 Amtrak FP40's in lash-up I noticed one hesitate a little on a large turn out at 45mph. If going 10 mph it would stop dead even with the other trying to push it.  Combined with poor ground this is an issue with engines stalling.   Maybe heavier fly wheels would help ? Is there something in the PS3 program thats different ? When I hit direction button from high speed this doesn't happen. I keep my deceleration set at about 4 or less.     

gunrunnerjohn posted:
jeremy ferrell posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The 2-rail/3-rail switch is notorious for causing this issue, though the real issue is trying to make the locomotive all things to all people.  I've had a number of people have me remove that switch and hardwire it to 3-rail operation, problem solved.

John,   Indulge me a little.  Can you describe what you actually do to remove the 2 rail cability because I’m ready to go down that road.  

Remove the wiring to the switches and just wire the two wheels together and the roller direct.  If you're not planning on running 2-rail, neither of these switches have any use, they just create problems.

Green wires show new connections, however don't connect the wheels to the roller.

MTH 2-rail, 3-rail Wiring

This is fantastic John thank you!

Engineer-Joe posted:

I think it still would, but try the deceleration at #1.

If I have any engine that exhibits extra symptoms like that, it goes to the bench for a closer look. Usually there something wrong with a truck or wire pick-up point.

I don't know that will fix anything, this was pretty solidly some oddity with the PS/3 electronics.  I haven't really followed up on it, but I can only hope they're working on it.

clem k posted:

….When running my PS3 3 Amtrak FP40's in lash-up I noticed one hesitate a little on a large turn out at 45mph. If going 10 mph it would stop dead even with the other trying to push it.  Combined with poor ground this is an issue with engines stalling.   Maybe heavier fly wheels would help ? Is there something in the PS3 program thats different ? When I hit direction button from high speed this doesn't happen. I keep my deceleration set at about 4 or less.     

the fact that one engine does it more than others, is what I was talking about.

You can't totally blame PS3 if one engine is worse. There must be something additional. I am not defending PS3 for the non-coasting issue here.

I also had a train slam to a stop when a breaker tripped and just a couple cars jumped the rails luckily. I'm usually pretty good at keeping the amp draw in line with my layout from all the years of practice. I purposely took things to the edge so I would know just what the system does. If five engines are OK and the sixth trips the breaker, I know enough to stick with five!  It's when an unplanned sixth engine enters the same district from poor planning. So I measure and plan more carefully.

 I must be getting older because I don't come near any limits any more. Our grandson does not like when things go wrong. So that also keeps me from pushing the edge. I'd explain to him that I was upset that a particular engine was not behaving. He knows enough to steer clear of that engine until I give the "all clear".

Yet that doesn't keep him from requesting more trains on the rails when he visits though. He'll pick 2 or 3 engines that he hasn't used together and keeps me running. Doesn't matter if they're a mix of PS2 and PS3, if the batteries aren't ready, etc. If the system is messing up, his youthful energy is hard to quell. I don't want to squash his enthusiasm towards toy trains no matter how hard I have to work at it.

Last edited by Engineer-Joe

If it's longer turnouts (#6, #8), the solution is to use a tortoise machine's relay contacts to turn the unused closure rail "hot" and the closure rail in use to "ground". On short diesels, you end up with a situation where one roller is in a gap and the other is sitting on a dead rail and/or the wheels are on the points (not great contact), on the frog (plastic) or not touching a grounded rail. I had to rig this on a #8 curved turnout that was stalling short locomotives (even 3-rail only). Once I rigged this, we never got stalling on the turnout.

Fixing diesel is easy since all in same chassis.

First, make sure both trucks have continuity to board.  Red pickup to red pickup.  And Black ground to ground.  You can have a broken wire under the heat shrink from the motion of the truck.

Clean wheels, clean and scrape black ground screws OR change them to nickel too.

You can test your switch.  IF defective jumper it, but if not defective that is not the issue unless one wire has come off switch.  Also check wire nuts to ensure all wires connected.  Sometimes one is wrapped around insulation.

For steam and I have done this for the 2 Rail only guys, I repurpose the 3rd rail pickup wire to become chassis ground and send to the tender.  Now Engine chassis and Tender Chassis are connected via wire, not just drawbar or drawbar wire spring.

If 3Rail only you can tie engine left and right wheels internally too.  Issue can be the spring and contact pickup on the right side wheels (This side replaces Center Rail Pickup).  Over current fatigues springs and they fail.  You can check continuity between right wheels and may find a wheel or two are not in the circuit.  No easy fix for this.   G

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