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Has anyone, other than Pecos River Brass, produced prototypically-accurate O-scale models of the 85-foot "lightweight" Pullman Standard 52-seat coaches, diners, and baggage/RPO equipment used on the Rio Grande's "The Prospector" and "Royal Gorge"? The latter train supplied the equipment for the 1968 version of the D&H "Laurentian", which I am trying to model. PRB's brass offerings, although perfect, are hard to find and rather expensive relative to similar passenger sets made of extruded aluminum (e.g. Golden Gate Depot's Empire State Express.)

 

I bought the Weaver set of aluminum D&H passenger cars only to discover that the window arrangements are way off. K-Line's 21-inch cars for "The Prospector" are similarly non-prototypical. Bachmann & MTH D&RGW offerings are too short. The prototypes were part of a partially-cancelled order intended for the C&O, but I don't know if anyone modeled these for the C&O. It would seem simple enough to find some extruded stock, cut to length, machine the windows in the proper locations, and, voila!: fluted PS bodies for C&O, D&RGW, and D&H trains. Am I "reinventing the wheel" here? I should note that 3-rail vs 2-rail is not a concern: I run both on 3-rail 090 curves, but hope to convert everything to Aristocraft/Crest Electronics R/C battery power.

 

Your insights are appreciated.

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Mac Shops (Haynes McDaniel) made several styles of aluminum extrusions with windows punched for various types of cars as per prototype.

 

You could also try OK streamliners in NY state (I believe.) He produces aluminum extrusions of various types and will punch windows as desired.

 

There is another fellow doing various style car kits in plastic, but I can't recall who it is at the moment. I'll try to find his info.

 

I believe the cars you want to model have corrugation below the windows only, don't they?

Originally Posted by Erik C Lindgren:
American Lightweight Car Company offered in the 1980's a complete consist of PS cars. The Budd domes would be an extruded you could add.

After Pete Plunkett died another fellow named Ken Tolar(?) was attempting to continue the line of American Lightweight, but I never saw anything from him.

 

Mac Shops still offered a brass wrapper for the Budd domes as of several years ago.

 

Nice build on your combine, Erik.

Last edited by rheil
Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by rheil

 

There is another fellow doing various style car kits in plastic, but I can't recall who it is at the moment. I'll try to find his info.

Found it.

Union Station Products makes exactly the D&H car kits you want.

I'm still waiting for the kit they were going to send to me back in March......

Erik,

I had forgotten that Ralph Brown announced streamlined car kits. Did he ever produce them? All I recall were the heavyweight kits. After Ralph passed the business on to a fellow in TN I sent $5 twice for his catalog probably 20 or so years ago. He kept the money, but I never received the catalog.

Last edited by rheil

I'm in the process of building a C&O Pullman Standard passenger train. As far as I've been able to tell only American Lightweight Car Company and Union Station Products have the correct car sides. The PRB D&RGW coach and 10-6 sleepers are identical to the C&O cars but are very pricey if you can find them. PRB was going to make the full C&O train but didn't get enough reservations.

 

The Union Station Products car sides are more detailed than the ALW sides especially the skirts. However the USP sells only the car sides. You still need the ALW kit to use as a core (car ends, underframe details, roof).

 

Here's the C&O combine built with the ALW sides.

 

IMG_2803

And here's a C&O coach with the USP sides and the rest of the car from an ALW kit.

 

IMG_2804

These are 3 rail cars with K-Line trucks.

 

Ken

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Thanks to everyone so far for the very helpful replies. I have followed up by contacting Ted Brebeck of OK Streamliners in Mohawk, NY. Mr. Brebeck custom makes aluminum PS and Budd passenger equipment as O-scale and HO-scale kits.

 

I shared my thoughts with Mr. Brebeck about what the kits should look like and will repeat it here:

" Two years ago, I made the mistake of buying a 5-car D&H passenger set from Weaver Models that was very non-prototypical. My goal is to build a 1968 D&H Laurentian passenger train with equipment that once ran on the Rio Grande's "Royal Gorge" train, with the exception that, in 1968, the D&H did not use any domed coaches or sleepers:
 
http://www.drgw.org/data/passenger/RoyalGorge.htm
 
The window and door arrangements may be viewed here:
 
http://unionstationproducts.com/deleware_hudson.html
 
Photos of the prototypes may be viewed here:
 
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/D&H.htm

 

...I am still trying to figure out how many of each type of car the Laurentian consist would have had. I assume it had one RPO/Baggage, one Baggage, one Diner/Lounge, one Lunch/Buffet, and at least two D&H coaches, plus whatever equipment the NYC would have attached to it in Albany. I'll worry about the NYC stuff later."

 

I can probably cannibalize the Weaver D&H set if Mr. Brebeck's kits lack trucks, pickups, etc.

 

For anyone else wishing to have Mr. Brebeck make custom PS or Budd kits, he can be reached at okengines@aol.com and his website is www.okengines.com.

 

I will let you know more when he responds to my email. Thanks again for your suggestions. This is a very helpful forum.

Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by mwb:

I'm still waiting for the kit they were going to send to me back in March......

What year, Martin?

2015

 

The super stupendous OMG 50th Anniversary issue of Model Railroader.

1984

 

Bit of lost year for me............but then I very rarely ever waste my time looking at MR except in the most desperate of situations, e.g. trapped in an airport in a multi-hour delay..........w/o toilet paper.

Originally Posted by ChainsawCHARL1E:

Thanks to everyone so far for the very helpful replies. I have followed up by contacting Ted Brebeck of OK Streamliners in Mohawk, NY. Mr. Brebeck custom makes aluminum PS and Budd passenger equipment as O-scale and HO-scale kits.

 

I shared my thoughts with Mr. Brebeck about what the kits should look like and will repeat it here:

" Two years ago, I made the mistake of buying a 5-car D&H passenger set from Weaver Models that was very non-prototypical. My goal is to build a 1968 D&H Laurentian passenger train with equipment that once ran on the Rio Grande's "Royal Gorge" train, with the exception that, in 1968, the D&H did not use any domed coaches or sleepers:
 
http://www.drgw.org/data/passenger/RoyalGorge.htm
 
The window and door arrangements may be viewed here:
 
http://unionstationproducts.com/deleware_hudson.html
 
Photos of the prototypes may be viewed here:
 
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/D&H.htm

 

...I am still trying to figure out how many of each type of car the Laurentian consist would have had. I assume it had one RPO/Baggage, one Baggage, one Diner/Lounge, one Lunch/Buffet, and at least two D&H coaches, plus whatever equipment the NYC would have attached to it in Albany. I'll worry about the NYC stuff later."

 

I can probably cannibalize the Weaver D&H set if Mr. Brebeck's kits lack trucks, pickups, etc.

 

For anyone else wishing to have Mr. Brebeck make custom PS or Budd kits, he can be reached at okengines@aol.com and his website is www.okengines.com.

 

I will let you know more when he responds to my email. Thanks again for your suggestions. This is a very helpful forum.

Charlie,

Ted is a very accommodating fellow and understands prototypes quite well. I have had him do some car extrusions for me in the past. A word of caution:

make sure Ted will be doing your extrusions in full length. Several he did for me were an inch or so short.

 

He does not include trucks with the kits. Since you are in 3 rail I suggest you look at purchasing MTH passenger trucks. They are far better than the Weaver trucks at a reasonable cost. Ted's turn around time is extremely quick.

Mr. Brebeck of OK Steamliners just replied and said that he does not have the tooling to produce a Pullman Standard lightweight with this kind of siding. I will contact him again to see if he has tooling for Erie-Lackawanna's AC&F streamliners which were used on the D&H's Adirondack when it was operating for Amtrak. I have also contacted Scott at Sunset, just in case he was running low on suggestions about what to make next. In the unlikely event that Mr. Mann is not inspired by my great idea, does anyone have contact information for Haynes McDaniel? I would really like to stay in the realm of metal trains in spite of the advances made in resin kits.

Originally Posted by ChainsawCHARL1E:

Mr. Brebeck of OK Steamliners just replied and said that he does not have the tooling to produce a Pullman Standard lightweight with this kind of siding. I will contact him again to see if he has tooling for Erie-Lackawanna's AC&F streamliners which were used on the D&H's Adirondack when it was operating for Amtrak. I have also contacted Scott at Sunset, just in case he was running low on suggestions about what to make next. In the unlikely event that Mr. Mann is not inspired by my great idea, does anyone have contact information for Haynes McDaniel? I would really like to stay in the realm of metal trains in spite of the advances made in resin kits.

I would still be tempted to get Ted to make the car extrusions for you without any corrugation. Evergreen plastic makes the correct corrugation in 24 inch long sheets. You could add the plastic corrugation to an aluminum car. A number of us have done it and it works fine.

The original Kasiner extrusions, which may be available from OK, would work.  You would need to belt-sand the corrugations off above the windows.  Get him to punch windows, then sand the corrugations off yourself.  Easy.

 

I think I would be tempted to use ends and trucks, and interiors as well, from cannibalized K-Line or MTH.

 

I am really glad I have no real info on passenger car window arrangements.  I have a lot of K-Line, and while I am quite sure some of the windows are incorrect, I do not carry a "spotter's guide" with me when I run them, or even look at them.  I sure do spot incorrect  car bodies, though.  The one you want has never really been done to perfection in O Scale, to my knowledge.

Here is the story on American Lightweight.

I'm Ken Towler and I worked with Pete Plunkett from the day he bought the company until he died.  I helped his widow, Linda Plunkett, for about 5 years when she sold the company to me. Unfortunately the biggest nightmare has been the underbody details.  The company that was doing the details was very unreliable for Pete, Linda and myself so when they decided to close shop they supposedly shipped me all the patterns and molds...........well not all the patterns were there and the molds were old and unusable.  I am trying to work something out now on the underbody detail.  I reordered the metal castings and injected molded parts and have them.  Two weeks ago I got a quote on ordering more roves and skirts.  Since 2007 the roves have gone up over 100% and the skirts have gone up over 300%.  It's either cough up $5,000 for roves and skirts, find a new supplier or do without.  I have replenished the trucks and bought 1,000 axles and wheels from Weaver before they closed.  

 

I like what Union Station is doing and looking at perhaps combining his sides with the rest of my kit but that would increase the cost of the kit by $20-30$.

 

What Atlas has done with the Zephyr cars for that price is unbelievable and when their contract expires no telling what the cost will be.  If you want a particular car I can do it but is that volume worth spending thousands of more dollars?

 

I am open to all suggestions and feedback.

 

Ken Towler

American Lightweight Car Company

201 Grist Mill Road

Lynchburg, VA 24501-7732

USP can include the skirts but as I understand it they are flat with the sides that people would have to bend.  I need to get with him on the thickness of the side to make it match my end pieces.

 

What a lot of people have realized is with the ALCC roof you can scribe the correct weld lines, pull a piece of fishing line in the scribe and have the correct weld patterns and more detail on the roof. 

 

When John Smith was closing out Pecos River I bought a bunch of plated roof grab irons for my personal use.  I wonder what it would cost to have a 1000 done as extras available for the kits.  Seeing plated grab irons on a well painted car,,,,,,,,,YES!!!

 

Originally Posted by bob2:

The original Kasiner extrusions, which may be available from OK, would work.  You would need to belt-sand the corrugations off above the windows.  Get him to punch windows, then sand the corrugations off yourself.  Easy.

 

I think I would be tempted to use ends and trucks, and interiors as well, from cannibalized K-Line or MTH.

 

I am really glad I have no real info on passenger car window arrangements.  I have a lot of K-Line, and while I am quite sure some of the windows are incorrect, I do not carry a "spotter's guide" with me when I run them, or even look at them.  I sure do spot incorrect  car bodies, though.  The one you want has never really been done to perfection in O Scale, to my knowledge.

I like this idea. I'll ask Mr. Brebeck if he can do this.

 

Although not a fan of resin/abs/plastic trains, I'm glad this tread has prompted a helpful discussion about the availability of these kits.

Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by ChainsawCHARL1E:

Mr. Brebeck of OK Steamliners just replied and said that he does not have the tooling to produce a Pullman Standard lightweight with this kind of siding. I will contact him again to see if he has tooling for Erie-Lackawanna's AC&F streamliners which were used on the D&H's Adirondack when it was operating for Amtrak. I have also contacted Scott at Sunset, just in case he was running low on suggestions about what to make next. In the unlikely event that Mr. Mann is not inspired by my great idea, does anyone have contact information for Haynes McDaniel? I would really like to stay in the realm of metal trains in spite of the advances made in resin kits.

I would still be tempted to get Ted to make the car extrusions for you without any corrugation. Evergreen plastic makes the correct corrugation in 24 inch long sheets. You could add the plastic corrugation to an aluminum car. A number of us have done it and it works fine.

The D&H had the former D&RGW diners refurbished and the corrugated fascia removed, presumably to match the 62-seat ACF coaches from the Phoebe Snow coaches it bought in 1970. So smooth sides would work without adding plastic corrugation. I might go this route if the Kasiner extrusions are unavailable. The stainless corrugations are preferable, however, because they match the stainless sides of the ALCO PA locomotives.

Originally Posted by VGN64:

Here is the story on American Lightweight.

I'm Ken Towler and I worked with Pete Plunkett from the day he bought the company until he died.  I helped his widow, Linda Plunkett, for about 5 years when she sold the company to me. Unfortunately the biggest nightmare has been the underbody details.  The company that was doing the details was very unreliable for Pete, Linda and myself so when they decided to close shop they supposedly shipped me all the patterns and molds...........well not all the patterns were there and the molds were old and unusable.  I am trying to work something out now on the underbody detail.  I reordered the metal castings and injected molded parts and have them.  Two weeks ago I got a quote on ordering more roves and skirts.  Since 2007 the roves have gone up over 100% and the skirts have gone up over 300%.  It's either cough up $5,000 for roves and skirts, find a new supplier or do without.  I have replenished the trucks and bought 1,000 axles and wheels from Weaver before they closed.  

 

I like what Union Station is doing and looking at perhaps combining his sides with the rest of my kit but that would increase the cost of the kit by $20-30$.

 

What Atlas has done with the Zephyr cars for that price is unbelievable and when their contract expires no telling what the cost will be.  If you want a particular car I can do it but is that volume worth spending thousands of more dollars?

 

I am open to all suggestions and feedback.

 

Ken Towler

American Lightweight Car Company

201 Grist Mill Road

Lynchburg, VA 24501-7732

I had wondered what had happened to you since your posts on the Atlas forum. That's an interesting idea combining your kit with USP sides. In the alternative, your kits minus the sides (buyer purchases them separately) could also work.

Here is the story on American Lightweight.

I'm Ken Towler and I worked with Pete Plunkett from the day he bought the company until he died.  I helped his widow, Linda Plunkett, for about 5 years when she sold the company to me. Unfortunately the biggest nightmare has been the underbody details.  The company that was doing the details was very unreliable for Pete, Linda and myself so when they decided to close shop they supposedly shipped me all the patterns and molds...........well not all the patterns were there and the molds were old and unusable.  I am trying to work something out now on the underbody detail.  I reordered the metal castings and injected molded parts and have them.  Two weeks ago I got a quote on ordering more roves and skirts.  Since 2007 the roves have gone up over 100% and the skirts have gone up over 300%.  It's either cough up $5,000 for roves and skirts, find a new supplier or do without.  I have replenished the trucks and bought 1,000 axles and wheels from Weaver before they closed. 

If you can't reproduce the underbody parts, how about an arrangement with Delta Models?
On the roofs, as nice as the plastic roofs are, perhaps arranging for milled wood roofs would be an acceptable alternative, especially if it can keep the kit cost down.

The USP skirts are part of the car sides. They come flat, but have to be curved. After assembling the side I tried to pre-curve the skirt but couldn't get enough curve into it. So after assembling the sides to the floor and ends, I glued the plain, preformed ALW curved skirts to the floor. Then with a lot of styrene cement between the two skirts, I used clothespins to pull the USP skirt hard up against the ALW skirt. Once the glue dried, the USP skirts were curved perfectly. Since the USP skirt is part of the car side, when the lower side fluting is attached to the car, that fluting sticks out away from the skirts. The skirts and the lower fluting should be in the same plane, but with the way the USP sides are made its not possible.

 

The ALW skirt fluting is simply scribed Evergreen styrene that has to be glued to the plain, curved ALW skirting material. This is difficult to do and the skirting is devoid of detail. Therefore on the cars using ALW sides I just left off the skirts between the trucks. What's good about doing this is you can see a lot of the underbody equipment which was prominent on these cars when the skirts were removed.

 

Also, the USP sides have the vestibule doors as part of the side. On the ALW kit the doors are a separate casting. Assembly of the USP sides are a bit easier because of this.

 

Here's are some pics of the cars after assembly and before painting:

 

Coach with USP sides

 

IMG_2237

IMG_2238

 

Combine with ALW sides

IMG_2241

10-6 sleeper and 11 DBR sleeper with ALW sides:

IMG_2230

 

IMG_2242

 

Ken

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Last edited by kanawha

I found that if you take the fluting for the skirting and run a razor knife down each grove it is much easier to confirm to the skirt piece.  I have seen people cut out slots in the skirting for other detail.  I saw one kit that the builder took the drawings from Mainline Modeler and put every pipe under the bottom.  It looked like a Wasatch car when it was finished.

Ken

Ken,

 I tried that technique with the skirting for the car ends. Sometimes it worked, sometimes I screwed it up.

 

I haven't seen many of the ALW kits built up. You can put as much detail into them as you have the time and patience for, but they can certainly can be built to the level of detail as a brass car. A big problem is a lot of the detail parts are disappearing. I added a number of parts from Keil Line and other sources which are becoming very scarce.

 

If you do reproduce the kits, please consider making the interior seats. It took years to scrounge the seats in my coach and combine and now I'm out.

 

Ken

Thank you Ken for keeping the fires burning



Originally Posted by VGN64:

       

Here is the story on American Lightweight.

I'm Ken Towler and I worked with Pete Plunkett from the day he bought the company until he died.  I helped his widow, Linda Plunkett, for about 5 years when she sold the company to me. Unfortunately the biggest nightmare has been the underbody details.  The company that was doing the details was very unreliable for Pete, Linda and myself so when they decided to close shop they supposedly shipped me all the patterns and molds...........well not all the patterns were there and the molds were old and unusable.  I am trying to work something out now on the underbody detail.  I reordered the metal castings and injected molded parts and have them.  Two weeks ago I got a quote on ordering more roves and skirts.  Since 2007 the roves have gone up over 100% and the skirts have gone up over 300%.  It's either cough up $5,000 for roves and skirts, find a new supplier or do without.  I have replenished the trucks and bought 1,000 axles and wheels from Weaver before they closed.  

 

I like what Union Station is doing and looking at perhaps combining his sides with the rest of my kit but that would increase the cost of the kit by $20-30$.

 

What Atlas has done with the Zephyr cars for that price is unbelievable and when their contract expires no telling what the cost will be.  If you want a particular car I can do it but is that volume worth spending thousands of more dollars?

 

I am open to all suggestions and feedback.

 

Ken Towler

American Lightweight Car Company

201 Grist Mill Road

Lynchburg, VA 24501-7732

What a beauty ��

Originally Posted by kanawha:

       

The USP skirts are part of the car sides. They come flat, but have to be curved. After assembling the side I tried to pre-curve the skirt but couldn't get enough curve into it. So after assembling the sides to the floor and ends, I glued the plain, preformed ALW curved skirts to the floor. Then with a lot of styrene cement between the two skirts, I used clothespins to pull the USP skirt hard up against the ALW skirt. Once the glue dried, the USP skirts were curved perfectly. Since the USP skirt is part of the car side, when the lower side fluting is attached to the car, that fluting sticks out away from the skirts. The skirts and the lower fluting should be in the same plane, but with the way the USP sides are made its not possible.

 

The ALW skirt fluting is simply scribed Evergreen styrene that has to be glued to the plain, curved ALW skirting material. This is difficult to do and the skirting is devoid of detail. Therefore on the cars using ALW sides I just left off the skirts between the trucks. What's good about doing this is you can see a lot of the underbody equipment which was prominent on these cars when the skirts were removed.

 

Also, the USP sides have the vestibule doors as part of the side. On the ALW kit the doors are a separate casting. Assembly of the USP sides are a bit easier because of this.

 

Here's are some pics of the cars after assembly and before painting:

 

Coach with USP sides

 

IMG_2237

IMG_2238

 

Combine with ALW sides

IMG_2241

10-6 sleeper and 11 DBR sleeper with ALW sides:

IMG_2230

 

IMG_2242

 

Ken

I know the what people told me mark up parts when I sell them but when I increased the price of my trucks due to a cost increase some people yelled bloody murder when I had cut my margin.  With the roves I would have to charge $11 each and that is at a lower margin than things have been in the past.  I'm not into this to make money as it's a hobby with no stockholders but I do need to pay the bills.  Do you think people will buy them?

Thanks,

Ken

Your competition may well be MTH - they are all metal, and apparently they have lengthened the wheelbase and made them look like real passenger car trucks.  I think they are over $20/ pair?

 

Any word from OK on whether the original Kasiner bodies are available?

 

I have a fluted Kasiner car that had all the flutes removed - not by me - and you almost cannot tell.  I took a K-Line SP Obs and removed one flute above the windows, making the windows more like the Daylight windows.  Kind of a waste of time, since the flutes were " outies" and the Daylight cars are really "innies" - but it did look better.

Originally Posted by VGN64:

I know the what people told me mark up parts when I sell them but when I increased the price of my trucks due to a cost increase some people yelled bloody murder when I had cut my margin.  With the roves I would have to charge $11 each and that is at a lower margin than things have been in the past.  I'm not into this to make money as it's a hobby with no stockholders but I do need to pay the bills.  Do you think people will buy them?

Thanks,

Ken

I really wonder if there is much of a market for O scale passenger car kits. I have the 2 completed cars, 2 ready to be painted, plus parts for 4 more. I bought several ALW kits from P&D Hobbies 5 or so years ago. Those kits were 20 plus years old when I bought them. That's a long time to hold onto stock that apparently was never in high demand. If there were built up cars commercially available I would rather go that route as the kits take a long time to build, however, I doubt there is enough demand for these type of PS cars for someone like Golden Gate Depot to build them.

 

Besides the problem of a questionable amount of demand, there is the problem of additional detailing parts. Like I said earlier the supply of these are drying up. Decals are another problem. Before Champ went out of business I bought many sets of C&O passenger car decals so I have enough for my builds. Even then I had to have LBR Enterprises print up car name decals for me as the old Champ sets were gone. Microscale has pretty much quit doing O scale decals. The question is if you sell kits, will the buyer be able to find any additional parts and decals he may need.

 

If it was me, I would seriously question investing many thousands of dollars to bring these kits on the market without having a really good idea of what the demand would be. Kit building is becoming a lost art except amongst a few of us diehards.

 

By the way, I think $11 is a great price for the roof. if I needed one for a project I would have no problem with shelling out $11.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

I would like to chime in here. First of all the posting reply by KT is the same thing he has been saying for a very long time. As dadada and looks as nothing has changed. The kits are very good and build up nicely. But he just sits on the product and has never done anything with it. People just got tired of hearing this.

 

He talks about rooves which I think means roof. and under body castings. Cant seem to get a supplier. dadada I know several people offered to assist him including my self. He sent me an Email about 8 months ago, saying he needed to talk to me. Never got back to me dadada.

 

It is really unfortunate that he seems to not want to run a business,and pursue anything further on getting things out people would buy. It is always a but I reason.

 

Now regarding resin castings of parts. 1 it is not easy, you have to make a master. 2 it is expensive on cost.  Rubber is 45.00 per qt. resin is 42.00 per qt. Resin cures by  heat. For my castings on large types I get about 40 shots per mold. For smaller castings I can get about 65 shots. Then you need a new mold.

 

I am not set up to do casting in bulk and to give a discount, the cost is just not there to do it.  Casting is not simple there are many variables the worst is temp and humidity.

 

I wanted interior parts and under body parts for my models,none was available so I made my own. Right now I have about 80-100 different molds, and close to 225 different items that I can use. On O scale Passenger cars., for Pullman ACF Budd and  StlC.

 

I can assure you that there are people out there that wants these things, based on what I see. So there is interest, you just have to know where it is, Just ask.

 

So I hope you get something from this posting. This is about as straight forward as it gets.

 

I am doing R&D on a one piece resin cast roof. But the down side is cost per roof would be 20-25.00 per roof. Would people pay for it ? I would if it is what I needed to build models. If it is not available people would not by it.

 

So I seriously doubt it anything will come from AML. But me I am just moving on.

cant wait for dadada.

 

regards

 

Bill Basden    Delta Models

 

I am doing R&D on a one piece resin cast roof. But the down side is cost per roof would be 20-25.00 per roof. Would people pay for it ? I would if it is what I needed to build models. If it is not available people would not by it.

 

So I seriously doubt it anything will come from AML. But me I am just moving on.

cant wait for dadada.

 

regards

 

Bill Basden    Delta Models

Bill,
Regarding the roofs: (and thanks for clearing that up. I looked up roves in the dictionary and there is such a word but it made no sense in relation to model trains.)

Golden Gate Depot just delivered the PRR P70far coaches with the arch roofs. I asked Scott Mann to have extra roofs made and he did. I took 22 of them to a 2 rail show in Strasburg, PA, this past Saturday and sold 16 of them at $15 each. My point is that no one balked at the price. When GGD did the heavyweight coaches years ago I sold over 200 extra roofs at shows over the course of a few years. I don't think your price of $20-25 per is out of line.

 

I can provide you additional info if you want. I have purchased from you and am on your mailing list. Also, your attorney  friend LS in Portland has my phone number as we talk frequently.

R. Heil

 

 

Ken is a nice guy.  His dream is to bring these kits back, and that is not a very practicable dream if he wants any kind of return on his investment.

 

My friend Henry Pearce was a lot like that - for him it was the challenge of getting every fixture just exactly right, and as a consequence he never really shipped enough stuff to offset his costs.

 

It is a hobby - some folks acquire a product line, and dream.  That should be ok.

 

Opinion.

 
I took 22 of them to a 2 rail show in Strasburg, PA, this past Saturday and sold 16 of them at $15 each. My point is that no one balked at the price.

Balk?  Not at that price - cheaper than the wood stock roof sections from Northeastern that you's have to finish......except that Northeastern doesn't even make this roof.....  I'm surprised that you had any left over at all at that price. 

 

$20-25 is still not unreasonable for a good, straight, ready to use roof. 

 

BTW, I also offered to help do castings a long time ago and never got a response - basically read Bill's post on casting.  My costs are a little different - different resin and RTV, but +/- an insignificant number, and get about the same number of pours per mold.

 

And, the last set of castings I did for someone was on the OGR forum that when it came time to pay the bill, evaporated......got 16 passenger car ends sitting in a box....  So, I'm not all that eager any more to be all that helpful doing resin castings.

After reading some of the comments posted here I understand why Atlas shut down their. forum.  I have been here two weeks and already bashed for trying to be helpful and honest.  Please take your EX-LAX attitudes and talk with someone who cares.

 

FYI..........roves is what spell check does to the plural of roof............also, at the end of January I was rushed to the hospital for the first time since birth, spent 8 days there(3 days in Coronary Care ICU) due to an adverse reaction to the morphine they gave me for a 10mm kidney stone,  almost was carried out, lost 32 lbs in less than 30 days..........since then I have been talking to custom builders, getting some quotes, trying to figure he best way to keep from investing another 5 figures without putting more money down the drain.  Oh yes........all while working at the job that pays the bills. 

Robert     Please send me the information you have on the roofs from GGD.
I think you proved people would buy these things, but you have to know where to get the items.
 
This is is the first I have herd about extra roofs from a supplier. Scott should step up to the plate and bring in more parts like this.
 
Car kits for O scale are available. USP mainly does HO and S scale care sides.
he will do O scale with a sure charge added to the HO car price. They run bout 55.00 per kit. No roof.
 
So this is the key We have to be able to get good roofs. This is why I am working on a good  Pullman style roof resin casting
 
 
Bill Basden    Delta Models
 
 
Originally Posted by rheil:

 

I am doing R&D on a one piece resin cast roof. But the down side is cost per roof would be 20-25.00 per roof. Would people pay for it ? I would if it is what I needed to build models. If it is not available people would not by it.

 

So I seriously doubt it anything will come from AML. But me I am just moving on.

cant wait for dadada.

 

regards

 

Bill Basden    Delta Models

Bill,
Regarding the roofs: (and thanks for clearing that up. I looked up roves in the dictionary and there is such a word but it made no sense in relation to model trains.)

Golden Gate Depot just delivered the PRR P70far coaches with the arch roofs. I asked Scott Mann to have extra roofs made and he did. I took 22 of them to a 2 rail show in Strasburg, PA, this past Saturday and sold 16 of them at $15 each. My point is that no one balked at the price. When GGD did the heavyweight coaches years ago I sold over 200 extra roofs at shows over the course of a few years. I don't think your price of $20-25 per is out of line.

 

I can provide you additional info if you want. I have purchased from you and am on your mailing list. Also, your attorney  friend LS in Portland has my phone number as we talk frequently.

R. Heil

 

 

 

I will be ordering one, to see how well it works. The thing I am curious about is
if the roof piece shown clear is formed or rolled. It looks flat, and with all the rib pieces one would have to roll it to the ribs and keep it square as well.
 
Just as a side note> If you buy his sides have him cut them with .030" thick styrene. if you have any of the American standard kits this is what they are .030. This will let you use the core.
 
 
Originally Posted by kanawha:

Looks like Union Station Products has now added an O scale passenger car core kit which includes a roof for $40.

 

http://unionstationproducts.com/_ck01.html

 

Ken

 

 

 

Okay, this may be a 2-rail sin, but with regard to passenger car interiors, has anyone considered the possibility of using transparent holographic window inserts? CAD drawings utilizing known floor plans (http://illinoisharvest.grainge...archtype=all&p=3)  could be used. Insert passengers as needed, or maybe even yourself. I know some passenger cars have really great interiors, requiring lots of time or $$$, but this could be an interesting way to do something a little different.

 

Now that I've touched a match to this powder keg, I'll sit back and see what happens.

Originally Posted by t610:
I will be ordering one, to see how well it works. The thing I am curious about is
if the roof piece shown clear is formed or rolled. It looks flat, and with all the rib pieces one would have to roll it to the ribs and keep it square as well.

That is what they had on their table at Chicago in March - basically a 1 piece flat wrapper for the entire car that got rolled over the ribs of a car core.

Same question I had - how hard to roll and keep aligned correctly.  Still waiting from mine to arrive,

Originally Posted by mwb:

That is what they had on their table at Chicago in March - basically a 1 piece flat wrapper for the entire car that got rolled over the ribs of a car core.

Same question I had - how hard to roll and keep aligned correctly.  Still waiting from mine to arrive,

Martin,

The USPS is having difficulty locating Ma-phoor hence the delivery delay.

Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by mwb:

That is what they had on their table at Chicago in March - basically a 1 piece flat wrapper for the entire car that got rolled over the ribs of a car core.

Same question I had - how hard to roll and keep aligned correctly.  Still waiting from mine to arrive,

 

 

 

Mr Meeks is a nice guy and tries very hard to bring a product to market. I have talked to him many times and bought many of his O scale cars.

 

But IMHO this flat piece concept is not good, it looks as if he is using clear vellum of some kind. Anything thicker than .030 " will be very hard to roll to transition to the side to look good. 

 

the roofs that AMSTD and ALW had are an extrusion plastic section, that is formed by some kind of die work. It could be using a Hydralic ram set up to get an extrusion. They are nice roofs, but may not be available at all.

 

As I have stated Roofs are the key in all of this, with no support system to deterred from nice interiors, to me it is an eye sore.

 

So my money is on after market roofs from GGD or other sources. I will still pursue my resin concept as a one piece casting. it would be about 20.75 inches in length.

 

Bill Basden    Delta Models

Martin,

The USPS is having difficulty locating Ma-phoor hence the delivery delay.

 

Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by mwb:

That is what they had on their table at Chicago in March - basically a 1 piece flat wrapper for the entire car that got rolled over the ribs of a car core.

Same question I had - how hard to roll and keep aligned correctly.  Still waiting from mine to arrive,

Martin,

The USPS is having difficulty locating Ma-phoor hence the delivery delay.

Really?

 

I mean how can you miss the huge Rose-Red City Half as Old as Time Itself????

 

Ok, it was hard to get deliveries to Tanelorn and that summer place in Barsoom was just impossible...............

 

 

Originally Posted by bob2:

B-C Models can be made to look quite good with a wood roof.  How difficult would it be to have a good molding shop set up to make such a roof?  I have done it with a table saw, but it requires plane work and finishing when done like that.

Not hard, but you'll end up paying for the cutter.  Take a roof section down to a real lumber yard that actually cuts molding and ask.  Might be educational,

 

Might lso be worth asking Northeastern about what it might cost for a run of O scale streamline arch roof in O; someone used to cut those roof sections......

 

Someone cut the odd clerestory roof sections for the LWS MP54 kits out of poplar; not pine or basswood -  you can get this stuff done.

Last edited by mwb
Originally Posted by bob2:

The original Kasiner extrusions, which may be available from OK, would work.  You would need to belt-sand the corrugations off above the windows.  Get him to punch windows, then sand the corrugations off yourself.  Easy.

 

I think I would be tempted to use ends and trucks, and interiors as well, from cannibalized K-Line or MTH.

 

I am really glad I have no real info on passenger car window arrangements.  I have a lot of K-Line, and while I am quite sure some of the windows are incorrect, I do not carry a "spotter's guide" with me when I run them, or even look at them.  I sure do spot incorrect  car bodies, though.  The one you want has never really been done to perfection in O Scale, to my knowledge.

Ted Brebeck of OK Streamliners said he could make these with the Kasiner extrusions or smoothsided PS extrusions. He sent me a pdf of his 2011 catalog and a 2015 catalog, which he has granted permission for posting on this site. The 2015 catalog is in a MS Publishing format, which I cannot open. I don't know if the two catalogs are different.

 

I think that the Kasiner extrusion is for MKT lightweights and the corrugated stainless fascia does not match that of the C&O/D&RGW/D&H. I'm leaning toward the smoothsided PS extrusion and then adding the fascia separately. I asked Mr. Brebeck about the car ends and he said they are made of metal, not plastic, which must make his the only O-scale aluminum streamliners that have this feature.

 

The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Volume 15, Western Railroads, has 3/4-views, interior photos, floor plan drawings (1:48 scale with dimensions), and dimensionless side view sketches of all of the 1950's D&RGW Royal Gorge PS equipment, almost all of which was sold to the D&H in 1967. Now, I need to get dimensions for window and door placement so I can create side view drawings for Mr. Brebeck to use.

 

Attachments

Files (2)
OK Streamliners 2011 catalog
OK Streamliners 2015 catalog
Last edited by ChainsawCHARL1E
Originally Posted by bob2:

The Kasiners are spot-on, unlike the plastic overlays.  Sanding off the upper flutes would be truly trivial in comparison to the labor of gluing on a plastic overlay on the bottom, and there would be no glue joint to fail when the paint shrinks.

 

Can you elaborate on your spot-on comment?  Compared to what plastic overlays? Paint shrinks and glue joints fail?  Not sure I understand.

Originally Posted by DaveJfr0:

Attached is the OK Streamliner 2015 file in PDF format that was in Charlie's post as a .pub.

 

FYI - It says to email credit card orders in 2 separate emails.  FYI - this is still not enough protection - DO NOT DO IT. They should only accept that information over the phone. They say their email (an AOL email) is secure.  That is also not correct.

 

Thanks for converting the file, Dave. Also, I think I'll pay by check.

Originally Posted by bob2:

The Kasiners are spot-on, unlike the plastic overlays.  Sanding off the upper flutes would be truly trivial in comparison to the labor of gluing on a plastic overlay on the bottom, and there would be no glue joint to fail when the paint shrinks.

Okay, so I just checked again with Ok Streamliners and they confirmed that there is no Kasiner extrusion stock left. Ted Brebeck did suggest that old K-Line extrusion would work if I could find it. So, if anyone is looking to unload some Kasiner or K-Line extrusion, please let me know.

 

Also, thanks for the input from the plastic train guys who are contributing to this thread. I think the best "finished" passenger cars end up as hybrids of metal exteriors and plastic interiors.

There was an article years ago about using half rounds to make the proper fluting for streamlined cars.  Union Stations work is very interesting.  You should look into the military airplane model sites as they are using paints that can copy any metal finish you want.  I'm amazed at the work they are doing and am going to try some polished metalizer type paints this winter on plastic sides for the stainless steel look.

Can you elaborate on your spot-on comment?  Compared to what plastic overlays? Paint shrinks and glue joints fail?  Not sure I understand.

 

Sure, Dave. If you glue a plastic set of flutes on a metal side, the bottom of the flutes will be elevated.  The real thing has the bottom of the flutes at the same level as the windows.  (That is not true for the SP cars - their flutes are inside the level of the windows.). Of course you could glue each flute individually.  I would go nuts doing that.

 

There may be a good glue that will hold plastic to aluminum, but I do not know what it is. I have plenty of trouble with Walthers steel sides glued to wood.  If you know of a good glue, let us all know.  I am currently looking for an adhesive that will stick fabric to fabric, and hold it in a 220 hp. slipstream.

Hi Bob

 

I'm not sure if it will help in this case, but I've had success with glueing different materials together using CA, but preparing the surfaces with Loctite 770.  It's a polyolefin primer.

 

The downside is that it sets up very quickly - I mean very quickly.  You need to offer the surfaces up very accurately first time.

 

For what it's worth.

Cheers

Thanks Max.

 

I was having trouble getting a bond with plastic gears on steel axles - a Loctite rep got me some really special primer.

 

We wound up knurling axles - nothing would glue those gears to metal.  

 

I have tried the best aircraft adhesives I could get my hands on - I think I will wind up sewing the fabric before gluing.  On these Walthers coaches I have been using Pliobond, but Martin says a drop of CA turns the Pliobond into really good glue.

 

One of the problems with these C&O cars will be the different thermal expansion between aluminum and plastic.  A year worth of daily temperature changes will probably result in a broken bond.  Not so plastic to plastic, so Ken's cars will stay glued, if you can handle the different height of the flute bottoms.  And remember, the C&O flutes/corrugations are like Kasiner, not like the plastic stuff.  You can see the difference.

Originally Posted by t610:
I will be ordering one, to see how well it works. The thing I am curious about is
if the roof piece shown clear is formed or rolled. It looks flat, and with all the rib pieces one would have to roll it to the ribs and keep it square as well.
 
Just as a side note> If you buy his sides have him cut them with .030" thick styrene. if you have any of the American standard kits this is what they are .030. This will let you use the core.
 
 
Originally Posted by kanawha:

Looks like Union Station Products has now added an O scale passenger car core kit which includes a roof for $40.

 

http://unionstationproducts.com/_ck01.html

 

Ken

 

 

 

Think I'll order one to see how it builds. Delta models has the interior details.

I have placed an order with OK Streamliners for 2 coaches (PS plan 7600), one baggage (PS plan 7609), one Baggage/RPO (PS plan 7603), one diner (PS plan 7608), and one Lunch Counter Buffet Lounge (PS plan 7596A). The Kasiner or ribbed PS streamliners are no longer available, so I ordered all smoothsided cars: the ribbed stainless steel fascia can be applied over the car body when everything else is finished, or at the very least, painted on. I placed the order without trucks and couplers, which lowers the cost per kit by $25. Also, when you order 5 kits, the 6th is free.

 

Now, I need to find some GSC 41-N-11 CIB trucks. Wasatch Model Company makes a very nice 41N truck, but I think it may be for Proto48 gauge and not O-gauge, so I may be out of luck. Precision Scale may have a 41-N-11 truck as well. If anyone knows whether these are Proto48 or O-gauge, please let me know. Also, I'm concerned that these trucks may only have an 8.5' wheelbase instead of the 9' wheelbase shown in the Pulman Standard Library drawings. I made a quick scale drawing of 8.5' vs. 9' wheelbases and the difference is noticeable. I also need to source some Scalecoat paint in D&H colors.

 

Does anyone have any coupler recommendations?

 

In addition to the D&RGW equipment in 1967, the D&H also acquired four ACF 62-seat coaches built to PS plan #W47733 in 1970. The two builders' equipment were used together, with the D&H's older passenger equipment until at least 1977. Once the D&RGW equipment is finished, I may give the ACF cars a try, along with those cool Budd-built domes.

Last edited by ChainsawCHARL1E

My Wasatch trucks are all 5' gauge, with relatively wide tread.  I use dummies on all my passenger cars, because I am not into complicated switching moves.  I put Protocraft on the rear car, and occasionally a Kadee on one end of the baggage car, although a Kadee on the locomotive will generally auto-couple with a dummy.

Originally Posted by bob2:

My Wasatch trucks are all 5' gauge, with relatively wide tread.  I use dummies on all my passenger cars, because I am not into complicated switching moves.  I put Protocraft on the rear car, and occasionally a Kadee on one end of the baggage car, although a Kadee on the locomotive will generally auto-couple with a dummy.

Bob,

Are your Wasatch trucks 8.5' or 9' wheelbase? Are they the 41N model? The 41N's on eBay are really sweet and are a good match for the 41-N-11's shown with the D&RGW equipment in The Pullman Standard Library.

 

Dummy couplers sound like a good idea. I've also had good luck with Kadee 740's: medium shank, all metal, and they pivot.

Up until a week ago I could have helped immediately - I had one pair in original box, and could have measured them.  An attempt at reorganization has put them elsewhere, and the rest are on display at the airport.

 

One thing I can tell you - when a truck is done by Wasatch, it will always be the correct wheelbase.

Originally Posted by jgtrh62:
Hi Charlie,
Have you checked with Roger at Wasatch Models? I saw a note a week or two ago stating he has limited quantities remaining of his O Scale 41-N, 41-ND, 41-CUDO, 61-UDO and Pullman 6410 trucks.
John

John,

Thank-you for the heads up. I have contacted Mr. Lewis and seen the Wasatch 41N trucks on eBay. I understand that they are 5' O-gauge and not Proto48 standard gauge. Now, my concern is their wheelbase: 8.5' vs. 9'. My understanding is that GSC made 41N trucks with both wheelbases. The drawings for the D&RGW equipment in the Pullman Standard Library show a 9' wheelbase, so I'm hoping the Wasatch 41N trucks have a 9' wheelbase. If the Wasatch 41N trucks have an 8.5' wheelbase, then I'll look for something else, such as the PSC 41-N-11 model. The 6% difference in the wheelbases is large enough to notice, so I want to get this right, especially considering what these trucks cost.

Originally Posted by rheil:
Originally Posted by ChainsawCHARL1E:

Mr. Brebeck of OK Steamliners just replied and said that he does not have the tooling to produce a Pullman Standard lightweight with this kind of siding. I will contact him again to see if he has tooling for Erie-Lackawanna's AC&F streamliners which were used on the D&H's Adirondack when it was operating for Amtrak. I have also contacted Scott at Sunset, just in case he was running low on suggestions about what to make next. In the unlikely event that Mr. Mann is not inspired by my great idea, does anyone have contact information for Haynes McDaniel? I would really like to stay in the realm of metal trains in spite of the advances made in resin kits.

I would still be tempted to get Ted to make the car extrusions for you without any corrugation. Evergreen plastic makes the correct corrugation in 24 inch long sheets. You could add the plastic corrugation to an aluminum car. A number of us have done it and it works fine.

I wonder if a Union Station Products fluted side/roof wrapper kit would work well on an OK Engines aluminum smooth-side Pullman body?

VGN64 posted:

Does anyone have the Pullman drawing or any drawing that shoes the color spacing on the C&O streamlined passenger cars?  I would love something that has measurements or guides.

Thanks

The book Chesapeake and Ohio Passenger Cars in Color  has a painting and lettering chapter on pages 62 - 65. It says the federal yellow letterboard on the P-S cars was 16-5/8" wide. There is a reproduction of the original Pullman painting diagram, D-6213, however it is nearly illegible so you would have to find that drawing.

 

Ken

I emailed the Newberry Museum which has the Pullman plans.  I asked specifically for the Illinois Central paint schemes and this is the information they sent me.  I want to share this as anyone looking for Pullman information this is the source.

Hello from the Newberry: The drawing can now  be downloaded(for free) from our Website http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/search/collection/nby_pullman/searchterm/MD-D-5014/order/nosort   You can also now zoom in (use the button "+" located at the top) to see the drawings more clearly.  If you wanted to order a higher resolution publication quality TIFF of this drawing you would need to order this through our Digital Services Department  http://www.newberry.org/rights-and-reproductions To begin the process,  create an account in our system(AEON).  Go to requests.newberry.org, complete the registration form(you only need to complete the items with the red*).  Once this is done, let me know and I can place the order for you.  The base cost is $30.00.   You will then receive an estimate from the Digital Department and once they receive payment, your order will be processed. If you have searched for other drawings in our online collection and have not found what you needed,  we do have others, however, these are primarily organized by plan #.  Lot number can assist when looking for specifications and the name of the specific car can also be useful.  By railroad, you would need the drawing number.  Hope this helps.  If you want to place an order, let me know when you have created your account so we can get the processed started.  All best,

kanawha posted:

I brought this thread back because I finally finished my C&O 10-6 and 11 DBR PS sleepers. These are made from American Lightweight kits. I have to apologize for these being 3 rail cars on the 2 rail forum, but there seems to be more of an appreciation for accuracy to prototype on this forum.

10-6, Town of Thurmond:

Thurmond1

Very nice work. I've built a few of these kits myself for others, interesting to say the least!

kanawha posted:

I brought this thread back because I finally finished my C&O 10-6 and 11 DBR PS sleepers. These are made from American Lightweight kits. I have to apologize for these being 3 rail cars on the 2 rail forum, but there seems to be more of an appreciation for accuracy to prototype on this forum.

10-6, Town of Thurmond:

Thurmond1

Thurmond2

Thurmond3

Thurmond4

11 DBR Monticello:

Monticello1

Monticello2

Monticello3

Monticello4

Superb modeling.    How did you add the crome around the windows?  Are the windows glass?   Are they flush mounted with the outside?

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