Pushers and helpers

CALNNC posted:

Well, never got a good answer on this question on the Trains website, so thought I would try here.  With mid-train helpers and end train pushers, forgetting about the communication angle, how did  the the engineer determine how much to push? 

He/she is VERY familiar with the territory he/she is operating over.

With diesels, does he watch the traction motor currents?

No.

On hilly curves where he can not see what the train is doing, how does he know he has not caused the train to double up  on itself in the curve due to too much push? 

Again, he/she knows their territory.

How did engineers determine how much to push in the steam era? 

3rd time, they knew their territory, and operated heavy trains over it day in and day out. Comes down to LOTS of experience.

What were the indicators, or did they just push for all it was worth until they didn't need it anymore?

Pretty much yes, i.e. their only "indicator" was knowing their territory and corresponding speed.

Simple, use the same Lionel engines or  install ERR boards.  Have WIDE radius curves.  Use Command Control.

https://youtu.be/RH1nABsbY0o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

Actually, I've wondered the same thing.  How are real engines equipped to run together with so much distance apart, weight and terrain changes. 

I've been able to my trains to do this, but ..... MY trains are toys.

Looking forward to seeing the answer. 

Harry736 posted:

Simple, use the same Lionel engines or  install ERR boards.  Have WIDE radius curves.  Use Command Control.

https://youtu.be/RH1nABsbY0o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

Actually, I've wondered the same thing.  How are real engines equipped to run together with so much distance apart, weight and terrain changes. 

I've been able to my trains to do this, but ..... MY trains are toys.

Looking forward to seeing the answer. 

You didn't like my answer, above?

 

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though.  When you watch the video on getting down the Saluda grade with midtrain and pushers, watching the dynamic brake current  would seem to indicate watching traction motor current going up hill would be important too.  Somewhere in the operating procedure, there has to be a method to follow other that if it feels good do it, or learn it from your journeyman engineer.  Maybe touchy feely developed by practice and demonstration was the way, not sure how it would hold up in an investigation though.

CALNNC posted:

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though. 

So,,,,,,you have lots of experience on various railroads that use helpers and/or DPU (Distributed Power Units)?

When you watch the video on getting down the Saluda grade with midtrain and pushers, watching the dynamic brake current  would seem to indicate watching traction motor current going up hill would be important too. 

That all depends if those were maned helpers, vs DPU operation. However, one still can not learn how to handle freight trains in mountainous territory, just by watch a video.

Somewhere in the operating procedure, there has to be a method to follow other that if it feels good do it, or learn it from your journeyman engineer. 

Again, do you have lots of experience training engineers on DPU operations?

Maybe touchy feely developed by practice and demonstration was the way, not sure how it would hold up in an investigation though.

Really? Been involved in lots of "investigations" also?

As a train driver I can tell you that it is really not that complicated at all. When you are up front you have control of the back of the train either through the computer (distributed power) or via radio to the back crew (conventional). Knowing the road (speed limits and terrain) is part of the job. You try to keep the power reasonably balanced throughout the train. No problem. Cheers, Paul.

CALNNC posted:

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though.

It is replies like this that make me just turn around and walk away!

Big Jim posted:

CALNNC posted:

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though.

It is replies like this that make me just turn around and walk away!

Certainly makes one wonder, doesn't it? Why bother to ask questions, and then question the answers, without any knowledge or experience related to the subject?

At one time, BNSF tried to establish a process where the Engineer on the leading consist would tell the Engineer on the manned helper to increase or decrease throttle, sort of like verbal Locotrol.  Made me want to be physically sick.  I worked a lot of trains on Cajon Pass on the head end, mid-train, and cut in ahead of the Caboose.  Same on the undulating Fourth District and 2.2% Miramar Hill.  Never was radio used.

Common sense, though, now that's another matter.  If the ammeter on your engine is in the red, then you might want to ask the Engineer on the other consist whether he is in the same position.  Sometimes you have to double the hill.  If your engine is having a lot of slipping, you reduce one notch.

Having worked NS’s former Conrail/PRR Pittsburgh Division, I can tell you that Jack and Tom are right on.  Many/most of my trains had helpers at some point during the run, and other than communicating the adding/removal of the helper, signal indications, etc- there wasn’t much radio talk between the head end and helpers.  The helper engineers knew when to shove and when to back off because they knew the physical characteristics of the territory.  

It seems obvious that technology was lacking during the steam era. The pusher and helper engineers would most likely be considered “artists” of their craft (operating locomotives). Through repetitive experience they developed “the touch” to know when to throttle up or down, depending on location on terrain and feel of load on locomotive. Their were most likely specialists in their craft. Hot Water’s explanation seemed spot on to me.

CALNNC posted:

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though.

I'm going to go out on a limb and proclaim that this is likely the FIRST and ONLY time that ANYBODY has used the phrase touchy feely to describe ANYTHING Jack Whelihan has ever said.  Just saying. 

On a serious note, I'm sure a good engineer is just like a good farmer, heavy equipment operators, pilots or race car drivers.  The feeling they get through their butt tells them 75% of what they need to know about what's going on.  Big machines talk to you and tell you what they need, you just have to be tuned into what they're saying. 

Well, other than nebulous explanations, there were a few answers that were informative.  Something along the lines of this is what I was looking for, and it does not end up with only the need to know your territory:

OPERATION IN HELPER SERVICE

Basically, there is no difference in the instructions for operating the GP30 locomotive as a helper or with a helper. In most instances it is desirable to over a grade in the shortest possible time. Thus, wherever possible, operation on grades should be in the full throttle position. The throttle can be reduced, however, in instances where excessive wheel slips are occurring. For proper traction motor cooling, the locomotive should never be operated on grades below the 5th throttle position.

So...you should go fast over the grade, but you can reduce throttle if the wheels slip?

In other words...the locomotive is operated using the engineer's judgment?

Hot Water posted:

Big Jim posted:

CALNNC posted:

Well, the touchy feely, familiar with the territory might be an answer, not sure if it is accurate though.

It is replies like this that make me just turn around and walk away!

Certainly makes one wonder, doesn't it? Why bother to ask questions, and then question the answers, without any knowledge or experience related to the subject?

Exactly. This is typical tolling behavior. He's not looking for knowledge or insight. Just looking for an argument.

CALNNC posted:

Well, other than nebulous explanations, there were a few answers that were informative.  Something along the lines of this is what I was looking for, and it does not end up with only the need to know your territory:

Nebulous explanations? Wow. The fact is that the need to KNOW YOUR TERRITORY is the #1 qualification for running a train over a particular piece of railroad.

You can read the book on how to operate a locomotive and get the instructions quoted in your reply, but that doesn't qualify you to operate a train over the railroad.

smd4 posted:

So...you should go fast over the grade, but you can reduce throttle if the wheels slip?

In other words...the locomotive is operated using the engineer's judgment?

 LOL - great response!

Gee....who would have thought that the engineers judgement and experience would be a part of this. 

Dieselbob posted:

...I'm sure a good engineer is just like a good farmer, heavy equipment operators, pilots or race car drivers.  The feeling they get through their butt tells them 75% of what they need to know about what's going on.  Big machines talk to you and tell you what they need, you just have to be tuned into what they're saying.

EXACTLY. And how does one learn to understand what the machine is trying to tell you?

EXPERIENCE.

I think a lot of you folks think this is a much more precise process than it really is.

If a division requires helpers, it's because of a grade. Getting up a grade requires horsepower. How does a diesel locomotive develop its maximum horsepower? By putting the throttle in the 8th notch. If that's too much power, causing the wheels to slip, then you back off the power a little. It's not rocket science.

CALNNC posted:

Well, other than nebulous explanations, there were a few answers that were informative.  Something along the lines of this is what I was looking for, and it does not end up with only the need to know your territory:

 

On another online forum you were told repeatedly EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE!

When are you going to learn?

I will say this:
We often pushed over the entire district, but mostly only over 2/3's of the district. As a pusher my job was to push. I pushed as hard as I needed to push...UP TO THE SPEED LIMIT that we were in. Otherwise, I pushed just hard enough to maintain the speed limit and keep the slack bunched and not to make things hard on the head end man in controlling the train. 

When he writes things like this:

"On hilly curves where he can not see what the train is doing, how does he know he has not caused the train to double up  on itself in the curve due to too much push?"

It makes me think he may be equating real trains to three-rail models, with their couplers attached to their trucks and tight curves.

But I have to wonder...how does the engineer in a helper or pusher "not see what the train is doing?"

Experience comes from learning and doing.  You  get it from having things explained on the hows and whys, then you perform what you are taught until you get it right.  Knowing your territory determines the hows and why to apply your experience, but  yelling experience says nothing but perhaps you don't really know.  While I have never 'investigated' a train wreck as one fellow asked, I have been involved with many private air craft wreck investigations over 38 years in that industry.  About a third of those wrecks were caused by pilots, not operating their fully functional aircraft properly, they knew the airport and the approaches, but did not operate the machine as they were taught, and 'flying by the seat of their pants' killed them.  There is more to it, as proved by Western Pacific's 1980 wreck caused by the pushers.