PW 736 side rod bind issue

If you have test rollers, put up a video of both sides, going as slow as possible, might make an easier diagnosis.......Pat

Therefore, I ruled out quartering because the eccentric crank was not connected on either side,  I'm kind of at a loss now as to the cause. Could both of those side rods be worn (at the hex screw holes)? They look fine. 

That will not rule out quartering. And it will not run with only one rod, even if the quartering is fine. Check to see if one of the drive wheels is loose on the axle and is out of quarter.

If you have test rollers, put up a video of both sides, going as slow as possible, might make an easier diagnosis.......Pat

Pat.....with just the main rods on?

That will not rule out quartering. And it will not run with only one rod, even if the quartering is fine. Check to see if one of the drive wheels is loose on the axle and is out of quarter.

I'm thinking they are tight, but I'll check. This engine was one of the first things I bought when I got back into the hobby 13 years ago. And it arrived with a quartering issue. Had that fixed and it's been fine since. At least.....unitl now

ROGER1 posted:

If you have test rollers, put up a video of both sides, going as slow as possible, might make an easier diagnosis.......Pat

Pat.....with just the main rods on?

 

That will not rule out quartering. And it will not run with only one rod, even if the quartering is fine. Check to see if one of the drive wheels is loose on the axle and is out of quarter.

I'm thinking they are tight, but I'll check. This engine was one of the first things I bought when I got back into the hobby 13 years ago. And it arrived with a quartering issue. Had that fixed and it's been fine since. At least.....unitl now

 

 

Put both sides main rods back on, you can leave the valve gear and eccentrics off completely if you feel you are not having an issue with them......just let that wheel set float for the moment...

Pat.....ok.....after lunch. It was binding pretty much immediately, but we'll see 

Going by your descriptions, and the fact this had a previous quartering issue, it’s possible it was put back together and just so happen to find a sweet spot that it ran ok...by taking it apart, you may have taken away that sweet spot it had, and now it wants to bind....I’ve seen jack legs mis-quarter Berks, then ever so slightly waller out a rod hole to get it to go....look to see if you see a worn spot in the holes in the rods...that would be a first clue....usually, you’ll see some copper coming through where the plating has been worn away......Pat

And like Roy said....definitely be looking for a loose wheel......Pat

Pat,

I had plans to attend a Swap Meet tomorrow. Maybe I'll pick up a new pair of main rods

ROGER1 posted:

Pat,

I had plans to attend a Swap Meet tomorrow. Maybe I'll pick up a new pair of main rods

Might be a waste of money if there’s nothing wrong with a rod, and it winds up being a wheel off quarter.....best to know the issue, and not throw parts at it...that’s a recipe for frustration.........Pat

Pat,

I think I may have found the problem. I put the main side rods back on to do the videos and put it on the rollers. I kept getting hex screws loosening. So, I torqued them up. Put the engine on the rollers and it seemed to run fine (videos below). Put all the rods back on and ran it again. Seemed to run fine.....until it didn't. Bound up.  Eccentric crank stuck. Found it out of position. When the rods were on and I looked at the wheel positions....the eccentric wheels seemed to be at the close to 90 degree separation. All seemed ok. But the eccentric crank didn't seem to hold it's position. Took them back off and looked at them under my magnifier.  Looks like alot of wear on the nubs of the crank. It's not holding it's position very long on one side. So.....rather then get side rods tomorrow, I'm going to pick up two cranks and their rivets and replace them on both sides.    And maybe I'll lock tight the hex nuts.

Roger

Very good, ...no need to loctite, unless you find a habitual offending fastener that always seems to want to come loose......sometimes loctite can be a real PITA to get something apart that needs servicing.....just ask the fellas with the vision line Niagaras .........Pat

When you put the eccentric rods on you need to make sure the little nubs on the eccentric crank are positioned into the slots in the wheel when you tighten the eccentric crank screw. If they are not seated properly the screw will feel tight but will work loose in short time, the eccentric crank will start to spin loose and damage the two nubs. You can use a little Loctite as long as it is the blue formula. Never use red. If the eccentric is not in the proper position Loctite will not help much. Some Lionel service Eccentric screws came with Loctite already applied to the screws. Hope you get it worked out... Forest.

Be sure the crank is pointing in the proper direction. If it is on backwards it will bind or knock the crank out of position. On most engines the valve rod is not long enough to keep from binding the drivers if the crank is on backwards. When the crank boss is forward, the crank should pointing approximately toward the rear and when the crank boss is toward the rear, the crank should pointing approximately forward. 

Have you looked at the steam chest to make sure it is not warped? The castings can warp and bend inward causing rods to move inward so they are no longer parallel to the body shell. Once warped inward, the rods will hang up on each other.  

I have had this problem on both 1615 and 2046 Steam engines.

Tim 

I like to use clear fingernail polish instead of Loctite. The polish is strong enough to hold the screw, but will let you disassemble it later.

The eccentric cranks can go on in two positions, but will only work in one of those two positions. The crank has to point more or less towards the axle at ten degrees off or so. If it points to the rim of the wheel, it will tear itself up immediately upon full rotation of the drivers.

RoyBoy posted:

I like to use clear fingernail polish instead of Loctite. The polish is strong enough to hold the screw, but will let you disassemble it later.

The eccentric cranks can go on in two positions, but will only work in one of those two positions. The crank has to point more or less towards the axle at ten degrees off or so. If it points to the rim of the wheel, it will tear itself up immediately upon full rotation of the drivers.

Great idea Roy....I’ve seen too many trains destroyed by loctite, some of the fasteners don’t even have a grading, once their snapped off inside, it’s curtains.....We're not trying to hold a 56 Packard together......Pat

Ok......I got the new parts in......eccentric cranks and screws. But this is turning into a Whack a Mole project. New issues keep popping up. The short in the smoke element, loosening screws and now an e-unit conking out. 

After putting the new crank in, it seemed to run ok. But then the popping noise returned and I discovered that the crank screw had loosened. Tightened that, ran it some more.......then more popping sounds. Two side rod hex nuts had loosened. Tightnened them. Things smooth. Then the e-unit started acting up.   I'm really tempted to use the loc-tite. Never had this happen before for me in an engine. Repeated loosening. 

But I've got to figure out the e-unit issue first or it won't run at all.

Roger

ROGER1 posted:

Ok......I got the new parts in......eccentric cranks and screws. But this is turning into a Whack a Mole project. New issues keep popping up. The short in the smoke element, loosening screws and now an e-unit conking out. 

After putting the new crank in, it seemed to run ok. But then the popping noise returned and I discovered that the crank screw had loosened. Tightened that, ran it some more.......then more popping sounds. Two side rod hex nuts had loosened. Tightnened them. Things smooth. Then the e-unit started acting up.   I'm really tempted to use the loc-tite. Never had this happen before for me in an engine. Repeated loosening. 

But I've got to figure out the e-unit issue first or it won't run at all.

 

Roger

As others have mentioned, and I as well, if you have habitual offending fasteners...ie; crank screws, rod bolts etc. ...then go ahead and use the blue loctite SPARINGLY!....don’t glob it on. Best to squirt the loctite in a small vessel or soda pop cap then dip the fastener in that....Pat

What exactly is the E unit doing that makes you say it’s conking out? .....does it buzz?...no buzzing?....won’t cycle?......Pat

Pat,

I think I've got a loose wire under it somewhere. The engine just stops.....no breaker trip, no buzz, nothing. I've been running it with the shell off, so I started wiggling wires and it starts again. So.....something is loose. I'll find it.

As for the screws.....I think there may be some lube down in the screw holes. Going to hit the holes with some acetone (it will evaporate quickly) and then put some loc-tite on the screws. 

If you want to make that engine a TMCC engine I have the board out of my warhorse that I am thinking of selling.

I have used super glue to fix loose drivers. They have held for several years, and are no harder to pull if needed than normal.

Well, so far so good. I think I corrected the e-unit issue. I roughed up the contact between the e-unit and frame and also thoroughly cleaned the drum (it was black). Seemed like a continuity issue and so far it hasn't stopped (fingers crossed).

I loc-tited (if that's a word) the side rod screws and eccentric screws and ran it after the fluid dried a bit.  I'm convinced that the loosening hex screws were creating havoc with the eccentric crank and it's damaged nubs (which eventually broke one off). 

I always tell my friends that opening up one of these PW engines reveals it's history and that's kind of cool. The rods have been an issue with this engine right from purchase (as I've mentioned) and apparently, the guy who fixed the quartering issue for me must have noticed a problem with the one eccentric crank. I found a VERY tiny star washer on it yesterday. Someone was trying to stop it from loosening. 

Speaking of engine history......the worst I've ever seen was an FM I purchased several years ago on the Bay. Looked great in the pics. It wasn't.    When I received it, I took the shell off to start my restore/tuneup routine.  Total mess.   Many parts were replaced with   crappy stuff, but the worst part.....they had tried to rewire it. None of the wires were soldered together (they were twisted together) and.......instead of shrink to insulate the connections.......they used masking tape. YES.......masking tape.   That engine went right back to the seller. 

ROGER1 posted:

Well, so far so good. I think I corrected the e-unit issue. I roughed up the contact between the e-unit and frame and also thoroughly cleaned the drum (it was black). Seemed like a continuity issue and so far it hasn't stopped (fingers crossed).

I loc-tited (if that's a word) the side rod screws and eccentric screws and ran it after the fluid dried a bit.  I'm convinced that the loosening hex screws were creating havoc with the eccentric crank and it's damaged nubs (which eventually broke one off). 

I always tell my friends that opening up one of these PW engines reveals it's history and that's kind of cool. The rods have been an issue with this engine right from purchase (as I've mentioned) and apparently, the guy who fixed the quartering issue for me must have noticed a problem with the one eccentric crank. I found a VERY tiny star washer on it yesterday. Someone was trying to stop it from loosening. 

Speaking of engine history......the worst I've ever seen was an FM I purchased several years ago on the Bay. Looked great in the pics. It wasn't.    When I received it, I took the shell off to start my restore/tuneup routine.  Total mess.   Many parts were replaced with   crappy stuff, but the worst part.....they had tried to rewire it. None of the wires were soldered together (they were twisted together) and.......instead of shrink to insulate the connections.......they used masking tape. YES.......masking tape.   That engine went right back to the seller. 

Well, I’m glad you got it going, now let’s see a video of your hard work going down the road......shell back on, in all her glory!.......Pat

Pat,

I'll try and get a video up later. Hopefully, it hasn't loosened  up.  But I've been working on 2 projects at once here....this one and also trying to eliminate the buzz from a Gateman. Busy   Thanks for the help!

Roger

Ok, below is a clip of the 736 in it's new found glory. Hopefully, it lasts

I don't think the video worked above.......I'll try it again.

Roger

Great !....good looking set....as it whizzed by at Mach lll.......LOL....I’m glad you figured it out without too much expense....Pat....

Thanks, Pat.  PW Lionel.......built for speed.  Some things never change.      Those 2500 passenger cars.....that was another project. I didn't like the matt look and found some aluminum treatments that brought them to a shiny gloss. Elbow work

ROGER1 posted:

Thanks, Pat.  PW Lionel.......built for speed.  Some things never change.      Those 2500 passenger cars.....that was another project. I didn't like the matt look and found some aluminum treatments that brought them to a shiny gloss. Elbow work

I’ve been piecing together a set of 2500’s to put behind my 47 Berk with 2426 tender....I’m doing the same thing, been polishing the bodies, first thing I did was completely dismantle the cars, and wet sand all the blemishes out with 2500 grit paper, then I’m polishing the bodies on a high speed buffing wheel with aluminum rouge.....they look like stainless steel....you did I nice job with your set.........Pat

Glad it all worked out for you.