Question about control systems

I converted a LC+ Camelback to battery power, it was an interesting exercise and since there was just a simple addition of a battery, it was also easy.

LC+ Camelback Upgrade to Battery Power

Fun project, and I used it before I wired power to the tracks to test out all the routes on the new layout.  However, once it was all wired, I had no more use for it, so I sold it to someone that wanted a battery powered locomotive.

I had never even considered dead rail, so thanks for opening up that whole world to me. And as for 2-rail O, I'll admit it's quite tempting, but the cost seems to be higher and the options fewer. Then again I'm more of an operator than a collector, so "buy once cry once" as they say.

@B23Dash7 posted:

I had never even considered dead rail, so thanks for opening up that whole world to me. And as for 2-rail O, I'll admit it's quite tempting, but the cost seems to be higher and the options fewer. Then again I'm more of an operator than a collector, so "buy once cry once" as they say.

I associate with many 0 scale 2 railers who are operators and modelers so since you are "more of an operator than a collector," you might fit in. It really depends on what you are looking for in your modeling and what you want to achieve. A good number of the items appropriate for my specific 2 rail railroad have not even been made in 3 rail so regarding options, maybe, maybe not. Admittedly, I wouldn't want 3 rail track no matter what the cost since it is not my preference.

Since you are starting out fresh, dead rail and DCC seem like a very viable option. If I did not have my layout fully wired, I'd give dead rail more consideration. Regular wired DCC has worked great for me anyway.

I'm a Lionel loyalist who collected O-gauge trains for years and initially operated them conventionally with KWs. When I purchased several TMCC-quipped locos, I installed the TMCC system (PowerHouse, Command Base, and PowerMaster). When I purchased Lionel LEGACY locos, I "passed" on buying the full-blown LEGACY control system because those locos would respond to my existing TMCC gear (although without the fancy features of LEGACY). Then I bought a MTH Aerotrain set with DCS and PS-3. I bought the cheapest MTH control gear (Remote Commander) for it, which was adequate for my intended use.

I installed a two-position "Knife Switch" to route track power from one control system to the other, but not both simultaneously - although I understand that is possible. My 15x19 feet L-shaped layout isn't big enough to run two trains headed by two locos of different systems simultaneously anyway - except with CONSTANT ATTENTION to every movement.

Always a devotee of KISS, I opted to keep my control systems simple, read the instruction manuals carefully, enjoy fun with trains, and share good times with my two great-grandsons. I'm content to leave it to the Lionel and MTH techies to design and keep their systems running without my attempts to "improve" them.

I realize other operators are comfortable with having all the "bells and whistles" available to them for use at the highest levels of command and control. More power to them! But I don't need to go there and prefer to spend money for other hobby stuff.

And so it goes ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA  12394

@Ray of sunshine posted:

To B23Dash7:

Like you, about 12 years ago, I changed from HO conventional (DC) to O gauge 3 rail. After looking through several articles on the subject of MTH - DCS verses Lionel  - TMCC & Legacy, I bought into the MTH system, and added a Lionel TMCC base. This, I thought was the best of both worlds.

I did buy a couple of MTH engines and some TMCC engines. Everything seamed to be OK and I was able to run MTH, Lionel, Atlas (with Lionel ERR) and even conventional engines.

But after a while, I was not really happy with the MTH system. So I sold off my DCS and upgraded to the Lionel Legacy - it also runs TMCC and engines I converted to ERR Lionel Cruise and sound. As well an conventional engines - new and old.

For me, I personally think that the Lionel Legacy is a better system and easier to operate. I'm not saying that MTH is a bad system, for me, I felt that Lionel's system better suited my layout.

I would suggest that you look up a local club in your area, and see what they have set up for their layout. Even join the club, you'll learn a lot more from other modelers that can help answer you questions and even assist you in setting up your layout. There is nothing like a hands on experience to help determine what might be best for you.

I belong to a local club and we run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC, as well as conventional. But I run and operate only Legacy. I've learned a lot from my fellow club members.

RAY

B23Dash7, I was in the same boat as you are and Ray was.  I switched from HO to O gauge 3 rail 10 years ago.  Like Ray, I bought the DCS system and a TMCC base.  That is where I still am.  In fact, I am in the process of expanding the DCS system to control track power and switches.  I must confess, I have had little exposure to Lionel Legacy, so it seemed to me I might as well continue with what I have, especially since almost all my engines are DCS.  Folks love Legacy, so I probably don't know what I am missing.  However, now retired and at age 65, I will probably continue with DCS unless I get to really use Legacy at a club or another personal layout and see the benefit of switching.

While in HO, I never used any type of command control, running strictly conventional.  Considering I spent 43 years in the electronics field, there is certainly a learning curve going with whichever system you choose.  You have plenty of advice to sift through already.  Remember, when you ask a question on this forum, members jump into action.  You can feel like you were hit with a fire hose full blast!!    Take your time and ask away.

@bmoran4 posted:

To add on to @gunrunnerjohn's sentiment, in my experience with lithium batteries is they simply don't last - usually only 2 to 3 years and then they become e-waste. Then there are the difficulties of storage. You can't store them at 100% charge or at a depleted charge as that damages the battery - usually 50-75% charge is the recommended shelf charge. Not to mention that it may be recommended that each battery should probably be stored connected to a battery maintainer to extend its useful life. Sure, it is all doable, and some people do actually do it, but it does not entice me in the least.

I'm an RC pilot with over 30 years experience and you are correct about the storage, management and maintenance of RC LiPo batteries.  Although if your batteries are only lasting 2-3 years, you are either not managing them correctly or your buying the cheap China versions.

I have perfectly fine LiPos for my aircraft that are well over 10 years old.  Some closer to 15.

Now with trains you should use LiIon batteries with PCB protection.  Trains do not need the energy like a race car or a plane.  They do not have any of the negative tendencies of LiPos, do not need special protection bags, cell balancing, storage or maintenance.  Mine are in my engines permanently.  I charge onboard.

For me it works and works well.  Is this the answer for GRJ?  No, not unless he has a spare $30k.  But for folks just getting into it or want to put their toe in the water, it's ok to try.

Nothing says you can't run Legacy, DCS and battery at the same time.  We do at our house.  I've mentioned many times, my son, daughter and brother-in-law still run track power while I run battery.

Have fun!

Ron

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Ron,

I understand where you're coming from, BUT:

1. What about route management? --
2. What about signals? --

Until these two are addressed for trains I'm going to be running miles of wire anyway.  And, because of the massive upgrade necessary to change all of my collection to BPRC, as pointed out by @gunrunnerjohn, BPRC is currently off my wish list, at least for the foreseeable future.

I will admit that it's worth tinkering with though -- but just for the sake of tinkering, for now.

Mike

Uhm... MTH and Lionel have not cornered the market on accessory and track activation.  There are other control systems out there that offer these too.  The RailPro system I use has a track and accessories module.  I'm sure there are dozen of choices if you look.

But I certainly understand the point of view that converting an entire fleet or collection may not be desired or possible.

Ron

@Ron045 posted:

Nothing says you can't run Legacy, DCS and battery at the same time.  We do at our house.  I've mentioned many times, my son, daughter and brother-in-law still run track power while I run battery.

This is certainly true. I personally just don't see the advantage in my situation, I wired the layout once, and now I don't have to think about what the state of charge is in my various locomotives when it comes time to run them, I just fire them up and run them. As you say, there is a place for battery power, it's just not my cup of tea.

Ron045 - I know nothing about BPRC and so I'm not going to comment on that, I'd just like to commend you for the 'respectful' and 'civil' tone of your responses as often on this Forum - when two different points of view are put forth - one comment begets another by the other party and then a 'back and forth' debate ensues to see who's going to have the last word; when in fact there is usually more than one way - not a 'right' way or a 'wrong' way - to address an issue.

@Ron045 posted:

Uhm... MTH and Lionel have not cornered the market on accessory and track activation.  There are other control systems out there that offer these too.  The RailPro system I use has a track and accessories module.  I'm sure there are dozen of choices if you look.

But I certainly understand the point of view that converting an entire fleet or collection may not be desired or possible.

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for your comments.

It wasn't my point however that Lionel or MTH had cornered the market.  My point was that I still need to run wiring for switch machine activation, for accessories, for signals, etc., no matter which company manufactures them.  None of these are wireless at the present time.

If I have to run wires for these then running power feeds at the same time is actually, at most, a small problem.

Mike

@PH1975 posted:

Ron045 - I know nothing about BPRC and so I'm not going to comment on that, I'd just like to commend you for the 'respectful' and 'civil' tone of your responses as often on this Forum - when two different points of view are put forth - one comment begets another by the other party and then a 'back and forth' debate ensues to see who's going to have the last word; when in fact there is usually more than one way - not a 'right' way or a 'wrong' way - to address an issue.

PH1975 is so right!  Ron is a great example of how so many of us respond positively.

B23Dash7, I hope you see we are giving you in a large part our preferences and why we chose those preferences, not definitive best ways of doing things.  Now sometimes someone will comment on a mistake a modeler is making in connecting his particular control system choice.  It happened to me installing surge protection to my DCS system.  I am very grateful for those comments.

@PH1975 posted:

Ron045 - I know nothing about BPRC and so I'm not going to comment on that, I'd just like to commend you for the 'respectful' and 'civil' tone of your responses as often on this Forum - when two different points of view are put forth - one comment begets another by the other party and then a 'back and forth' debate ensues to see who's going to have the last word; when in fact there is usually more than one way - not a 'right' way or a 'wrong' way - to address an issue.

Oh boy.  You have given me something to live up to.  Thank you and I will try to remember this positive behavior moving forward. 

Have Fun!

Ron

@Ron045 posted:

Oh boy.  You have given me something to live up to.  Thank you and I will try to remember this positive behavior moving forward. 

Have Fun!

Ron

I know what it is like, Ron, trying to live up to a compliment here.  😉

I try not to say anything on-line that I wouldn't say to someone in person.  Of course, I've been known to say some odd things in person, so there's that to consider.

This is definitely a great learning session. I'm encouraged that there isn't a Definitive Answer actually, it doesn't lock me in to one company's locomotives or electronics. And I'm really appreciating the respect and wisdom on display here, I know I'm probably asking questions that have been asked a thousand times before.

B23Dash7, we all were in your shoes once.  The forum has an excellent search tool, but my opinion is until you have some familiarity with what’s going on, you don’t quite know what to put in the search parameters for questions like this.

@B23Dash7 posted:

This is definitely a great learning session. I'm encouraged that there isn't a Definitive Answer actually, it doesn't lock me in to one company's locomotives or electronics. And I'm really appreciating the respect and wisdom on display here, I know I'm probably asking questions that have been asked a thousand times before.

Don't feel locked in to one thing.  I started that way with DCS thinking everything had to be PS2 or PS3.  Eventually I grew out of that.  It's ok to diversify.  You will be glad you did, especially when one of the systems is acting up and behaving poorly.  If you just wanted to run trains, you could get an engine from a different system and start running.

On my layout right now...

MTH DCS

Lionel Legacy

Lionel LionChief

Williams (Upgraded to PS2)

Atlas Upgraded to BlueRail track power

MTH Upgraded to BlueRail Battery

MTH Upgraded to RailPro

Weaver Upgraded to RailPro

If I wanted to, and had enough people or hands for the controllers, I could run every one of these engines on the same track at the same time.  Hmmm, this might give me an idea for a video.

Have Fun!

Ron

Ron, I defiantly encourage you to make a video showing how you can run all those systems.  Is there anything you haven't put into service? 

Going back to the original question where it seems someone is coming new into the hobby apparently without a large quantity of locomotives the answers may best be from that prospective.

In response to that position I would suggest to at least try one battery remote control system.

GRJ having 100+ engines is understandably a no go.  Even having the finances it would not be a prudent expenditure.

My back ground is one where I had 62 DC engines just b/4 DCC became popular.  I did not see the wisdom of converting to a system that still was experiencing a series of burned boards at X $$$ per unit. 

I sold most of my DC off and picked up a few early DCS PS-1 units, then little by little more PS locos found a warm home here. 

Then I started on a too large of a layout and saw the need to purchase 500' rolls of wire in two different gauges  and 12 different colors along with a couple of under layout creepers.  It was in the midst of this insanity that I obtained my first BPRC 0 scale unit. WOW!  I suddenly felt foolish.  However,  like the Westward traveler in the 1800's, my wagon wheels were in a rut that I had dug.

I trudged on to most of my track power needs but only purchased BPRC from that point forward or picked up DC engines for conversion.

I say all this to say if I was to start over with few or no locos I would only go battery powered R/C. Period.

The nay sayers speak of short life and dead batteries. That has never been my experience.  My first BPRC unit is still running with its 15 year old battery.  With a host of battery engines and average layout running I go many weeks between charging them.  Most of us do not have a department store display layout where you let one loco run all day long , so in reality battery charging is only an occasional activity, at least for me.

@Tom Tee posted:

Then I started on a too large of a layout and saw the need to purchase 500' rolls of wire in two different gauges  and 12 different colors along with a couple of under layout creepers.  It was in the midst of this insanity that I obtained my first BPRC 0 scale unit. WOW!  I suddenly felt foolish.  However,  like the Westward traveler in the 1800's, my wagon wheels were in a rut that I had dug.

Tom,

I came to some conclusions from your comments (please let me know if I'm wrong):

1. Why does one need 12 different colors to feed two leads out to 10, or 20, or even 50 places around the layout?  Wouldn't "White and Black" or "Red and Black" suffice?
2. Unless you'd wanted to have power control over a number of separate track blocks perhaps?  With track powered stuff this would of course be needed to keep trains from running where they shouldn't be running, and causing a wreck.  But, if you were operating BPRC locomotives wouldn't you also need a way to keep them from starting up, or more importantly, leaving a block when they shouldn't and causing a wreck?  Like perhaps adding signals?  Signals would need many colors, and much more wire.
3. If you'd planned on doing these two things, and in particular more than just these two things, say also powering all your turnouts with electrically operated switch machines, or maybe adding a number of powered accessories as well, then multiple colors and miles of wire make sense.  Yes, none of these are simply "track power needs".

Taking all this in consideration, and your comments above, I'm thinking that you're largely a single operator concentrating on operating one or two trains at a time, even though I believe that your layout is huge and so has the capacity for much more.  If so then you don't need blocks, powered switch machines, signals, or accessories.  In this case BPRC makes complete sense.

However many of us (me for instance) need, or actually foolishly want, these other things, which demand miles of wire and 12 or more colors because there are currently no wireless solutions for them.

Because of this I have a feeling that most of us at this point wouldn't save ourselves very much wire at all by powering locomotives with batteries.

Bring on the insanity.

Mike

BTW -- Batteries make complete sense for RC model cars, aircraft and boats, and drones, because these hobbies don't have signals, turnouts, or powered accessories.  What if they did?