Question on Pricing old trains

Some dealers seem to go just for the social aspect of it, not really expecting to sell much of anything.  Others are hoping to reel in an overeager buyer.  It's not unique to Allentown, by the way, a great show.

They obviously enjoy the exercise they get hauling the stuff back and forth.

Rusty

Folks price according to what they believe their merchandise to be worth. If they are carrying their stuff from show to show, then they are priced too high for the area.
Seems silly to me, as they carry the stuff back and forth, their goods become travel worn, and less desirable.  When I decide to sell something, I price it to move, not to drag around.

I wouldn't bother comparing a seller's price to values published in a price guide. I find them to be meaningless when it comes to selling prices. The real question is: "What are the trains worth to you?".

and some sorry to say are looking for that one who remembers that set they had as a kid and wish they didn't get rid of and has no idea of what they really are worth ( yes the sucker ) and are hoping to make a big score. 

Great bunch of answers!  Only wish those who sell, or try to sell, would think about this.  Nobody wants them to go home penniless, but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit.

It's not just in S Scale, I have seen the same thing with plenty of O Gauge stuff, and to a lesser extent, in HO as well. some people just have what I consider unreasonable expectations for selling prices. The fact that I see so many of the same items on the same seller's tables, (often as you mentioned, arranged in the same positions) show after show seems to bear out my thoughts on their prices. It is their choice to keep hauling those items around, setting them up, and then taking them home again.

Doug

Great bunch of answers!  Only wish those who sell, or try to sell, would think about this.  Nobody wants them to go home penniless, but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit.

One problem, you must have ten items to sell, and the ability to get ten more. There is a finite number of old trains out there. If I sell off ten trains, where am I readily going to get ten more? This is especially true of the less common items, and items in nice shape.

C W Burfle posted:

Great bunch of answers!  Only wish those who sell, or try to sell, would think about this.  Nobody wants them to go home penniless, but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit.

One problem, you must have ten items to sell, and the ability to get ten more. There is a finite number of old trains out there. If I sell off ten trains, where am I readily going to get ten more? This is especially true of the less common items, and items in nice shape.

 

Where is it written that you must buy 10 items to replace the 10 you sold? 

When I sell, I want to go home with empty containers.

Rusty

Where is it written that you must buy 10 items to replace the 10 you sold? 

I don't mean to pick on Francine, but when they wrote:

"but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit."

I thought she was treating table holders as businesses. Businesses have to restock don't they?

When I sell, I want to go home with empty containers.

Me too. That makes two of us. But I am not going to sell an item that I believe to be worth $100 for $10 either.

Selling 10 things at 10% PROFIT, is not the same as selling a $100.00 item for $10.00, That would be a 90% LOSS.

Selling an item purchased for $100.00 for a sale price of $110.00, would be a 10% PROFIT.

Doug

Economics are too confusing for most of this forum and the train sellers. Let's leave the economy to the post office and talk TRAINS, Kamerades!

challenger3980 posted:

Selling 10 things at 10% PROFIT, is not the same as selling a $100.00 item for $10.00, That would be a 90% LOSS.

Selling an item purchased for $100.00 for a sale price of $110.00, would be a 10% PROFIT.

Doug

Maybe so, but if you've been lugging that $110.00 thing around from swap to swap for several years (or decades,) you've still lost money.

Or does one's time, labor loading & unloading and cost of tables have no value?

Now, anybody can ask a certain price for something , just as anyone can want to pay a certain price for something.  If they happen to agree, everyone goes home happy.   But some of the dealers appear to be reenacting the burden of Sisyphus.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

challenger3980 posted:

Selling 10 things at 10% PROFIT, is not the same as selling a $100.00 item for $10.00, That would be a 90% LOSS.

Selling an item purchased for $100.00 for a sale price of $110.00, would be a 10% PROFIT.

Doug

Maybe so, but if you've been lugging that $110.00 thing around from swap to swap for several years (or decades,) you've still lost money.

Or does one's time, labor loading & unloading and cost of tables have no value?

Rusty

Rusty, that was not the point that I was making, my post was in response to C.W. Burfle's comment;

Me too. That makes two of us. But I am not going to sell an item that I believe to be worth $100 for $10 either.

I was pointing out that he was confusing selling something for 10 cents on the dollar, with making a 10% PROFIT, that was not the same thing as what Francine posted about:

"but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit."

Rusty, I agree with you that 10% more than paid for an item, is not worthwhile, on most items when personal time, fuel, table fees and other incidental costs are figured into selling at a swap meet. I know that from experience, but in my case, I wasn't selling at the meets as a business, but rather as a HOBBIEST, selling off unused items, just trying to recoup what I could, not expecting to make a profit.

Doug

Having been an industrial salesman for 40 years I never mixed selling with my hobbies and still don't. Plus after retiring I sold new and used cars for a year. Funny how costs, overhead and profits work out. there are so many factors involved especially with the internet today I sure wouldn't want to discuss/argue it here. If a guy has something and puts a high price on it-that is his right even if it sits for 20 years.

A friend who sets up several tables at meets selling trains and diecast vehicles. Several yrs back I asked  him, how do you know when to sell. His response was, when you make a profit, either a big or small profit, be satisfied or you'll end up hauling it back and forth to meets.

I was pointing out that he was confusing selling something for 10 cents on the dollar, with making a 10% PROFIT, that was not the same thing as what Francine posted about:

"but be reasonable - a wise man once said, "you make more money selling 10 of anything with 10% profit, then 0 of something with 0 profit."

I am not confusing anything.  Sorry my example confused you., Maybe I purchased that hundred dollar item for five dollars.  I would make 100 percent selling it for ten. So, you think I should let it go? 

Clearly at least a few people commenting have experience doing train shows. I still wonder how many folks giving advice on how to sell trains have experience doing so.

Hi Doug,

What I was saying was, for example, the vendor buys an engine for $25, usual and customary hobby shop tune up is $25 to $35 (which some dealers don't do) plus say $25 for cost of tables, etc would be about $75 cost.  If you charged $100 for that piece, you would clear $25 or 33% profit.  I see those trains for $150 and up.  Hello.  By the way, if you purchase from a hobby shop, the price is substantially higher, but you get a guarantee of some sort with it.

I did sell at shows and I know what dealers pay for the trains.  And that's why dealers, who aren't reasonable come with the same stuff in the same place year after year.

Not trying to knock people, just getting them to think a different way.

The thing is:  The market of those that appreciate old trains is dwindling.  Eventually, it won't really matter how rare or pristine a piece is, there won't be many around to buy these pieces.  Sure, there will be some new folks getting interested, but not enough in numbers or fast enough to replace those departing.

All you have to do is look at the O gauge side to see how the Postwar talk has tapered off in favor of the new sparklies.

Rusty

This reminds me of a similar conversation with a couple of friends several years ago.

The subject in question was a boat: old, decrepit and always up for sale. The price was so high that the boat never sold, of course, but the For Sale sign never came down. She rested on blocks under a shelter, and her owner kept her looking decent, but it was obvious that her dried out, mis-shapen hull would never see water again, nor the engine drive the propeller once more.

She was never intended to be sold or functional, just purely a social and hobby vehicle for her owner and friends. They mowed the grass around her, cracked a few beers, scraped and painted a little here and there, talked about old obsolete engines and such. Sometimes the grand-kids camped out in the cabin. She was a "beer boat".  

Maybe those sellers that don't sell just have "beer trains". 

This is why I shop around and used e-bay. I'm in no rush to purchase any train item and have been very successful in getting "rare" items for less than haft the so called going price. There are deals out there even at train shows but don't be in a rush and shop around.

Clearly at least a few people commenting have experience doing train shows. I still wonder how many folks giving advice on how to sell trains have experience doing so.

C.W. , makes an astute observation.  I did it for 15 years, in the 80s and 90s.  Sometimes it took a few shows to figure out the pricing.  Today with smart phones and auction results you should be able to figure the price.  The price guides were always inflated.  I always priced the Getty Tank cars at $100.00, cause there was a show every year where a lady would buy all I had for $100 each.  Were they worth that?  Only at that one show.  

But, it's a free market, jump in and try your hand at it.  If the market is over priced, then it should be quick and easy for you to monopolize the market.

Much like all the advice we see on the internet about what Lionel, MTH or others should do or should produce.   If its that easy, then take a shot at it.  MTH took on Lionel.  Didn't happen overnight but looks like they are direct competitors these days.

Why do people carry the same merchandise from show to show?  I don't know, but it's good for me that they come and buy tables and help fill up the hall.  They are supporting the existence of that particular train show.  If space is a problem, then shows will begin limiting the number of tables per vendor.  Until then, I can quickly bypass those tables I have seen before and move on to greener pastures.

Just like the prices on this forum.  Some ads sell out very quickly while other ads go into the:  final price before ebay, last reduction, new lower price, only 42 left, ... phase of advertising.

2 rail, 3 rail, tubular track, ross, gargraves, DCS, legacy, lobster claws, weathering, scenery, HO, G, thank God at this point none of it is outlawed or controlled by a gov't agency.  And yes you can run your trains just before you go to bed, day or night.  Ain't this country great.

I am an avid Flyer hobbyist and have been selling at shows for over 15 years.One thing that has to be taken into account is geography.Flyer is a tough sell in my area and as of late that is 95% of items I have for sale.At any given show in my area there is at best two or three vendors selling mostly Flyer.Pricing is not the issue it is what the buyer is in the market for.I sell  well below any Greenberg pricing guide but that is not the problem.I have talked to other dealers and heard them say you need to go to Allentown or Timonium or shows in Ohio and you will sell out.When I am price general items I go to ebay look up completed sales for the item and use that as a average of what the market will bare.As a general rule overall prices for toy trains are on the demise.More and more has come to market and harder to find pieces are becoming more available.So why do some dealers not budge on prices?Many think it is still the 1980s and the heydey of train selling is still ongoing.The Internet has changed all that and the fact that the next generation is not all that interested in train collecting.Next time you attend a train show in any area look at the average age of attendees and you not be surprised that it is sixties to seventies......

One thing that has to be taken into account is geography. Flyer is a tough sell in my area.

There are a few Flyer collectors in my area (Capital District of NY).  Our local shows have very little in the way of it. I thought the same was true in the NYC metropolitan area and the Buffalo NY area (haven't been in those areas in a while)
From what I see, Flyer is very popular in Connecticut and Massachusetts.

Actually I am in Western New York area Buffalo - Rochester.Very strong Lionel O and O27 gauge and HO presence.We are fortunate though to have at least 4-5 shows a month of various sizes in the general area.I know many areas of the country aren't as lucky......

Russ D posted:

Actually I am in Western New York area Buffalo - Rochester.Very strong Lionel O and O27 gauge and HO presence.We are fortunate though to have at least 4-5 shows a month of various sizes in the general area.I know many areas of the country aren't as lucky......

Russ, it maybe Fortunate for the BUYERS, that you have at least 4-5 shows per month, but I suspect that, the frequency of the shows is what is killing the VENDORS. The typical buyer will have a budget that they can spend, with an occasional "Splurge" purchase. It would be beneficial to the vendors, if there were only a show every month or two. The buyers would still be spending the same amount of money, or possibly even a bit more, because they may see something interesting and buy it on speculation, "Hey, I might need that before the next show a month or two from now" and buy it Now, rather than waiting to see if they really need the item because, heck there are two shows next weekend, I might even find a better price.

 The other way that the high show frequency hurts the vendors is because of the extra Time, Transportation and Table expenses involved in vending at 4-5 shows per month, as opposed to selling the same items at 2-3 shows every 2 months. The lower frequency of shows would also save the buyers the same Time, Travel and entrance Fees, that would then be available for purchases. Another benefit to the vendors would be, their budgets would be larger, PER Show, possibly enabling/enticing them to purchase larger ticket items at the shows they do attend, rather than spreading their budgets over smaller purchases at more shows.

I don't have a degree in Marketing, but it is something to think about,

Doug

Regarding show frequency: Russ describes his area as Buffalo - Rochester (NY). In my mind, those cities are about an hour apart.
I don't know how far he is willing to travel, or whether what goes on in his area is the same as what goes on in the Capital District, still:

In my area, shows that are about an hour apart are going to attract different population of both buyers and table holders. Yes, a few buyers will attend both shows, as will a few table holders.

Unless a show is really outstanding, like Springfield (Mass), an hour is about my limit.

I strongly believe ebay contributed to the price decline. The late 90's I sold off most of my Lionels on ebay, post war and modern era. When I sold my trains on ebay, ebay was in it's infancy, if you did a search for a certain engine or rolling stock you were lucky if two showed up, now if you do a search there could be as many as 20 popping up. The competition to sell is so great, it's a buyers market, sellers are even willing to sell cheaper then what their asking price is.

   About a yr ago I decided to get back into model RR after selling one of my Harley's, a 1969FLH. I was surprised to see the prices of Lionel engines and rolling stock were selling for 50-35% less of what they did back 17 yrs ago. One example, Lionel #8150 green Pa GG1, 17 yrs ago you couldn't touch one for under $400, now one can be bought, boxed nos w/papers w/ S&H for $200. There are still good deals at train meets, as long as your not specific to one or two items. January at the Hamburg Pa train meet, I purchased all five Lionel Madison cars, excellent condition lightly used w/boxes 19011, 15, 16, 17 & 18 at an extremely cheap price.

Ok Folks, the dreaded results from Allentown:

The S gauge parts guy (used to be Jenson parts) wasn't there.  No one else had the DC can motors or some of the other parts I needed. 

The Northern 4-8-4s were going from $315 to $500 (unbelievably a new Lionel issue was $350).  Haggled a guy down to $195 by not taking the tender (which can't be used for the conversion that I am doing).  Also tried to get him to take the motor, which I don't need but he didn't want it.  He insisted the engine was reworked 332 DC and doesn't need a can motor, runs great and is a good smoker. The engine was dirty with rust and gunk on the running gear.

I used to do restorations and the engine and gear cleaned up well, and since the shell has to be modified, detailing changed and a wooten boiler added, the slightly chipped paint isn't bad. I will use the tsunami DCC control with sound that would have been used on an Atlantic and change the motor to  a DC can motor.

Once all that is done, just have to find a K4 tender and a pacific tender to cut and make my scale tender (yes, i've done this is O gauge before). 

I'll try to post photos once it's done.

Francine,

That sounds like a nice project you're embarking on.  I know you said you would be posting photos when it's done, but try to take some during the build progress if you can.  We like pictures and I'm sure a lot of people would love to see how you put it all together.  I know I would be especially interested in the wiring aspect with the tsunami.

Good luck!

Mike A.