Questions on PW AF 332 4-8-4

Most Gilbert 332 Northerns came with the Universal AC motor. Those specifically marked DC on the cab were DC with a permanent magnet motor. There are exceptions, so you'll need to look at the motor to see if the field assembly is wire wound (AC) or permanent magnet (DC). Another way to tell is if the loco has a reverse in tender. If it is AC it will have a 4 wire harness, if not it will have a two wire hook up. With 5 Digit locos, they will all have a 2 prong plug and a 2 position reverse and no DC, only AC. AC motors can be run on AC or DC current, where the DC motor can only be run on DC current. For a short period of time when Gilbert was introducing their DC Direction Control feature, they marked most steam locos on the cab with DC or AC to help differentiate them from each other in the catalog. Again there were exceptions where locos were not specifically marked. If I recall correctly, only the 0-8-0 and Northern ever came with a DC motor. The later Northern's also had a large motor vs a small motor. This variation was also offered in the late 3 digit Hudson and K5 Models and was always AC.

Gandy

Thanks Gandy

I've saved all the sites to my favourites.
A lot to take in!

When you say 5 digit locos....I assume you mean the numbers on the cab?

And I'm a little unclear on the 4 or 2 position E units.
Could you clarify this a little?

I appreciate your time on this. I'm going to see this Loco (332) next week. The owner is someone I know from local train shows. He is not very familiar with AF from a mechanical standpoint. This engine has been in his collection and not been run for a while....full C7 condition I'm told.
I really like the look of this engine and I'm trying to educate myself on it before I meet with the gentleman and perhaps make an offer.

There's another question, I've checked E bay for some info on value.
Would you have some info or opinions on value?

A real newbie...I know....thanks for all your assistance.

Dave

Yes, the 5 digit locos refers to the 5 digit number under the cab. Gilbert changed numbering systems starting in 1957.

A 4 position reverse is exactly the same as the traditional Lionel post war unit only different in physical design to avoid patent conflicts. It has a 4 position cycle Neutral, Forward, Neutral, Reverse. Just as Lionel did in later years for some lower priced locos Gilbert went to a 2 position unit that had only the Forward, Reverse cycle. As for value, it all depends on condition. The 332 is generally the most common of the Northerns in most cases, although some variations can be rare such as the early silver lettered ones with just Union Pacific on the tender sides. Paint must be nearly flawless, castings must be unbroken especially the cab roof and tender steps, all must be there and intact, not replaced. Number boards must be there, and lettering must be crisp. A common AC version in excellent should command about $300 a DC version maybe $350. A detailed price guide will alert you to variations more in demand than others.

Gandy

Thank You Gentlemen for your replies.

And here I go with another question if I may.

Why did Gilbert move from AC and begin to make DC engines?

Were there some significant advantages?

Thanks
Dave

Electronic Propulsion was a new feature in 1947 for Gilbert. It all amounted to smoother operation. When Gilbert advertised this new feature in their catalog they showed an illustration of a DC locomotive smoothly going from forward to reverse. They compared that to a locomotive going forward, stopping, going into neutral, then starting in reverse again etc. With the flip of a switch you could reverse your loco instead of yanking the transformer handle back and forth to cycle the reverse unit. DC also allowed for smoother operation over all with no e-unit issues or noise. The feature did not take off as well as they had hoped and Gilbert abandoned the idea after a few years.

You can read more here:

DC Info

Gandy

Most interesting Gandy.

So I gather then, that any of the cab numbers followed by DC are these engines?

I'm wondering, if it worked well at the time, why did it not catch on?
Certainly seems like a great feature!

Was it plagued with issues?

Can you keep these engines running well today or are they difficult to fix and or maintain?

Thanks again
Dave

Gents

Went a little deeper with the link Gandy provided.

Very interesting.

You needed the #14 Rectiformer (transformer) to operate the new DC engines.
It converted AC to DC for smooth operation using the new "electronic tube".

So would you need this Rectiformer today to operate the AF DC engines?
Anyone able to possibly describe this "electronic tube"?

Is this where the complexity comes into play?

If so, I would probably opt for staying with AF AC.

Dave

There were two types of DC controls put out by AC Gilbert. The second one was the Rectiformer with the electronic tube, the first one was a rectifier used in conduction with a standard transformer. I have seen the rectifier often never the rectiformer. But it is easy to make your own own. I have taken a Radio Shack 10 amp Bridge Recifier and two DPDT switch and wired it between the Transformer and Track. One DPDT changes the power to from AC to DC and back the other reverses the DC output to the track. I put this into a little project box that the sell so it was all neat and tidy!. You can run your AF DC locomotives that way! Also any AC locomotive can be ran on DC power.

I have some locomotives that the mechanical reverse unit is kaput and I put a smaller bridge rectifier accross the field windings of the motor and run them as DC. One of them was the 0-6-0 Pennsy loco and tender the other a docksider. I was able to close the gap between the loco and tender on the Pennsy and the docksider runs better and no chance of unintentional reversing due to dirty track! So if you want you can convert all your locos to DC power.

Back then small rectifiers that could handle the required current were expensive and hard to come by. Today you can go to Radio Shack or other places and get one cheap.
Al

A friend of mine unintentionally bought a DC version on ebay that was not lettered DC. Since he runs the AC trains it was not compatible, and he will have to sell it.

If you are interested in American Flyer you might want to stick with the AC version as there were many more types of locomotives produced in AC.

If the engine does not have AC or DC printed on it then the quick way to tell the difference is to look at the wires going from the tender (permanently coupled car behind the engine) to the engine. The DC version has two wires and the AC version has 4 wires. There also is a reversing mechanism inside the tender of the AC version with a lever sticking out the bottom - the DC version doesn't have this.

John

Note that Flyer also made AC locomotives that had only two wires coming from the tender. AC locomotives without smoke units in the boiler have only two wires coming from the tender. The reverse unit for these is located in the boiler. There will be a lever projecting out of the top of the boiler on these that is used to lock-out the reverse unit. There were versions of the 312, 322, 343, and 334 that had the smoke unit in the tender, these also only have two wires between the tender and locomotive since the reverse unit was located in the boiler. They also have the reverse lockout lever projecting out of the boiler top.

PHM

Interesting and Thank You to all who have posted.

So many variations in this AF world!

How would you tell if the smoke unit was in the tender?
I presume one would fill the smoke unit via some entrance on the tender?

How did Gilbert move the smoke to the stack?

And I wonder why Gilbert decided to put a smoke unit in the tender?

Thanks

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by John23:
A friend of mine unintentionally bought a DC version on ebay that was not lettered DC. Since he runs the AC trains it was not compatible, and he will have to sell it.

John

Don't sell it just go to Radio Shack buy a 10 amp bridge rectifier and two DPDT switches some wire and a project box. That way you can change your AC into DC when you run that locomotive. One DPDT choses AC or DC power the other reverses the DC power. Wire it between the transformer and the track.

quote:

Originally posted by David Mondoux:
Interesting and Thank You to all who have posted.

So many variations in this AF world!

How would you tell if the smoke unit was in the tender?
I presume one would fill the smoke unit via some entrance on the tender?

How did Gilbert move the smoke to the stack?

And I wonder why Gilbert decided to put a smoke unit in the tender?

Thanks

Dave

Prior to WWII AC Gilbert had "chuggers" located in the tender so it may have been the natural progression for post war locomotives to have the smoke unit added to the sound system in the tender. Smoke in Tender (SIT) locomotives were produced in 1946 and 1947 than the less expensive to make smoke in boiler version was produced.

Four locomotives had SIT the 312 K-5 Pacific the 322 Hudson, the 332 Northern and the 342 0-8-0 switcher. All of the SIT have a fill cap located in the coal bunker for adding smoke fluid and a black rubber tube between the tender and locomotive to direct the smoke to the smoke stack. Most SIT locomotives use a cloth bellows to produce the sound and blow the smoke. The bellows do wear out and become ineffective.

AC Gilbert did a nodification on the SIT locomotives to a cylinder and piston instead of a bellows in the tender and you can purchase reproductions of these kits or reproduction bellows for your worn out bellows. That way they can blow smoke again and "choo choo". There is also a can motor replacement for the SIT motor that you can get from Port Line Hobbies, as some of the motors have become worn and loud, drowning out the "choo choo" sound.

My 21085 has only 2 wires coming from the tender, and has th smoke unit in the boiler. The e unit is in the locomotive and the lever faces down between the loco a.nd tender.