'Rare' or highly desirable today?

these may be more from the "rare and NOT in demand" category...

for over three years i looked for a hockey card that had a book value of 25 cents.

more relevant here and something i don't really understand... i am surprised when i see a ca.1985 Williams Challenger... the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production by a company that pretty much led the way in the emerging "3-rail scale"... sell for only a few $100...

perhaps it's either too early, or just me that considers this locomotive a landmark piece.

overlandflyer posted:

more relevant here and something i don't really understand... i am surprised when i see a ca.1985 Williams Challenger... the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production by a company that pretty much led the way in the emerging "3-rail scale"... sell for only a few $100...

perhaps it's either too early, or just me that considers this locomotive a landmark piece.

It's because many folks nowadays are more interested in the latest command, smoke and sound features rather than a conventional locomotive by itself.

Rusty

Certain Gilbert S Gauge items.

Rusty Traque posted:

overlandflyer posted:

more relevant here and something i don't really understand... i am surprised when i see a ca.1985 Williams Challenger... the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production by a company that pretty much led the way in the emerging "3-rail scale"... sell for only a few $100...

perhaps it's either too early, or just me that considers this locomotive a landmark piece.

It's because many folks nowadays are more interested in the latest command, smoke and sound features rather than a conventional locomotive by itself.

Rusty

you're probably right and that was the basis of my "too early" comment.  i'm sure in the 30's and 40's nobody wanted that junk from the 20's anymore ...

What seems to be in demand right now is I see a lot of people looking for the MTH Coors Light bullet train tail car.

NYC superliner set 4 pack 2 pack and station sound car.Have them but rarely seen at shows and crazy prices on bay.

I guess the K-Line Santa Fe 'Transition' cars would come to mind here as well...

dk122trains posted:

NYC superliner set 4 pack 2 pack and station sound car.Have them but rarely seen at shows and crazy prices on bay.

 

A beautiful set!  I wonder if the influence on the rarity was the scale crowd?

There were certainly enough people here decrying it as outlandish when it was offered, since NYC didn't survive long enough for either the cars or the SD80 that was made for them to have ever existed IRL.

Maybe there are just more people in the hobby now who appreciate this for what it is (causing the surge in pricing/demand when they are offered for sale).  A really nice train in a popular road name from the past.

-Dave

Dave45681: It's sad to say it, but those "Superliner" cars would have only existed on the NYC until they came to their first tunnel on the mainline......

There are very few rare items in the modern era. Just because somebody asks a high price for a item does not mean I would ever pay it. 

There are also just too many trains on the secondary market to overpay for anything. 

Dave

Chuck Sartor posted:

What seems to be in demand right now is I see a lot of people looking for the MTH Coors Light bullet train tail car.

I see them for $200 asking price but at the same time I picked one up NIB on ebay for $75.00.  To some people your dream acquisition is just their item to get rid of.

overlandflyer posted:

these may be more from the "rare and NOT in demand" category...

for over three years i looked for a hockey card that had a book value of 25 cents.

more relevant here and something i don't really understand... i am surprised when i see a ca.1985 Williams Challenger... the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production by a company that pretty much led the way in the emerging "3-rail scale"... sell for only a few $100...

perhaps it's either too early, or just me that considers this locomotive a landmark piece.

While I agree that it is a good engine and I proudly display one, there were brass big boys produced for the two rail market years before this one.  I would put the MTH Challenger as the top three rail locomotive to own because it changed the direction of the entire industry. 

The  Clinchfield Challenger was my first MTH purchase and over a period of 2 years I finally got 30 mixed brand CC&O Hoppers. I spent a lot of time in and around Clinchfield territory interviewing old timers for Mark Hipp (Mike's brother in law) to determine the paint color of the lettering. A large majority of retirees at Erwin Yard and local Cafes plus one rail artist all said "white". It was road numbered as one of the "Wartime Challengers" that Clinchfield bought from the government and ferried from Utah and redrafted and singlestacked them for eastern coal.

Anything from Kline or Weaver.

Some of the higher priced K-line passenger cars are the bi-level Santa Fe cars.....along with the transition car that goes with that set.  The recent prices on Ebay have been eye opening....

Like Alan, I have been watching the prices recently on the K-Line Superliner Santa Fe Set. Stupid prices are the norm.

I thought by now one of the manufacturers would have seen the  opportunity for SuperLiners in a variety of road names. The Atlas Santa Fe F Units and recent Power offerings by Lionel & MTH would look great pulling these high level cars.

It may take awhile - but I'm waiting for something new instead of paying $200 each for 15 year old cars.

Paul

I think the modern stuff will quickly decrease in price as the number of capable/interested buyers quickly decrease.  Some York's lately you see stacks of the rare limited edition MPC sets for a fraction of past prices.

Price dont matter if you like it, buy it and enjoy it.  Time is short

Here is a very bad video (cause I took it!) of a train of Santa Fe Hi-levels.  This was taken a couple of days ago as the sun began to shine through the east windows.  Makes the finish on those cars look fantastic....!

Hard to find items in my field are:

Ferdinand Magellan 3 rail pax car in all three schemes

Many Sunset Models PRR Brass locomotives

Sunset Models 3 rail PRR BRASS pax cars

Golden Gate Depot Amtrak passenger sets and cars

Atlas O Conrail- MP15 & U23b

K-Line PRR Scale diesels.

K-Line PRR 21"  passenger sets

A lot of engines that were $1,000 when new 10 years ago, now go for a few hundred on eBay.

The K-Line ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF covered steel coil car must be rare because it sold out and has never been on sale again, even second hand.

Andrew

The Lionel GEVO

Dewey, Great story!

I think the Weaver brass cabooses are desirable.

The ATLAS O ILLINOIS TERMINAL Pullman-Standard 4750 3-bay covered hoppers were built to order and are impossible to find for sale with 3-rail trucks.

Andrew

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Hard to find items in my field are:

Ferdinand Magellan 3 rail pax car in all three schemes

Many Sunset Models PRR Brass locomotives

Sunset Models 3 rail PRR BRASS pax cars

Golden Gate Depot Amtrak passenger sets and cars

Atlas O Conrail- MP15 & U23b

K-Line PRR Scale diesels.

K-Line PRR 21"  passenger sets

 

GGD Amtrak cars are sought after!  I obsorb whatever of these I find!!!

dk122trains posted:

NYC superliner set 4 pack 2 pack and station sound car.Have them but rarely seen at shows and crazy prices on bay.

Don

Would love to see those run some day!

Peter

The scale length K Line cars are a given, but I think the 60 footers with full interiors are desirable too.

These still look good behind scale locos being scale width and height , and look much better on average O scale curves.

In either case K Line nailed the close coupling of passenger cars 2 decades ago. It seems the "big two" still struggle with this.

Its amazing how K Line left such a lasting impression the hobby , having been around for such a brief period.

I wonder what we'd have from them if they were still around.

I've been watching the market trends with the Lionel ES44ACs. Some of the heritage units are already getting up there in price, depending on the road name. I saw a non-powered unit recently priced at the same value the powered one was worth when it was released! I'll be curious what factor the "BTO" trend will have down the road.......

Rob

Brass traction flat cars with containers and  K-Line Foreman's Car road number 195369.  John in Lansing, ILL

Bill DeBrooke posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

What seems to be in demand right now is I see a lot of people looking for the MTH Coors Light bullet train tail car.

I see them for $200 asking price but at the same time I picked one up NIB on ebay for $75.00.  To some people your dream acquisition is just their item to get rid of.

A tail car? I've seen the regular operating door reefers go for around $75, but the tail car goes much higher. I saw one go for $350 a couple years back.

While desirable may be pushing it (since it probably ticked off more people than it pleased) the Lionel "York" boxcar from a couple years ago has to be on the list in terms of rare.  50 pieces is pretty low for anything.

-Dave

Here is another 3rd rail chlorine tank cars in brass from years ago.Rarely see them.

Any of the Lionel die cast ES44ACs, especially thr Boy Scout one.  Lionel scale GGI,in Penn Central, only 90 were made.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

overlandflyer posted:

...1985 Williams Challenger...the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production ...

..., there were brass big boys produced for the two rail market years before this one.  ...

up until this model, you could not touch an O scale brass import (limited runs, not in general production) for less than a few grand, no less an articulated engine.  i remember this sold for $999.  again, a landmark model for the 3-rail industry.  i would rate the significance of this piece alongside the 1937 Lionel Hudson.  of course in 1970 (same 33 years after its introduction) i'm sure you could pick up a '37 Hudson for a song, too.

[ed: math... ]

I seem to remember a long time ago there was a TM video with that Challenger running on someones layout, and when it ran over what appeared to be a scratch built trestle, the trestle collapsed from the weight and the engine landed on it's side, the trestle a bunch of snapped wood!  It could have been staged, but somehow I don't think so. Does anyone else remember what I am talking about?

overlandflyer posted:

Bill DeBrooke posted:

overlandflyer posted:

...1985 Williams Challenger...the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production ...

..., there were brass big boys produced for the two rail market years before this one.  ...

up until this model, you could not touch an O scale brass import (limited runs, not in general production) for less than a few grand, no less an articulated engine.  i remember this sold for $999.  again, a landmark model for the 3-rail industry.  i would rate the significance of this piece alongside the 1937 Lionel Hudson.  of course in 1970 (same 33 years after its introduction) i'm sure you could pick up a '37 Hudson for a song, too.

[ed: math... ]

I in no way was intending to diminish the importance of this piece.  I agree with you completely.

overlandflyer posted:

Bill DeBrooke posted:

overlandflyer posted:

...1985 Williams Challenger...the first tinplate articulated locomotive in regular production ...

..., there were brass big boys produced for the two rail market years before this one.  ...

up until this model, you could not touch an O scale brass import (limited runs, not in general production) for less than a few grand, no less an articulated engine.  i remember this sold for $999.  again, a landmark model for the 3-rail industry.  i would rate the significance of this piece alongside the 1937 Lionel Hudson.  of course in 1970 (same 33 years after its introduction) i'm sure you could pick up a '37 Hudson for a song, too.

[ed: math... ]

Back then when the Wm Challenger came out, if you didn't pre-order one, with in a month or two they were selling for $1800. - $2000. Yep, since then resale value of these engines have been on a downward spiral.  Back in August 2018 I purchased a LN (shelf queen)  Wm Challenger for approx. $440. shipped. I also purchased a few more Wm brass large steam engines.

April 2017, NOS Wm SP Cab Forward approx. $430. shipped.

Nov 2018, LN Wm NYC class A, approx. $525. shipped.  

The Williams Challenger purported to be a scale model.  I believe it was undersize.  It is certainly not a desirable model for 2-railers.  Check out the Sunset, USH, or even Lobaugh for a far more faithful model.  Opinion.

My surprise is seeing the sag in the price of the Lionel B6 - that one deserves better.

Fortunately, if you have the money to spend, you can spend your money on anything you want and what YOU want is desirable to YOU. And if someone else wants it too and he can't have it  we then call it rare!

However, neither is truly desirable or rare.

I'd like to think that the second dome car from K-Line's aluminum Golden State set, the K4632-29841 "Golden Outlook" is another rarity--I don't even see them on Ebay. In fact, I don't even see photos of it anywhere--the image below I saved from the last Ebay auction I ever saw one on, which may have taken place while K-Line was still in business:

I see the base six-car set here and there, sometimes the RPO or observation, but never the second dome car. Not even at York. (And I've been looking all these years, since I have the rest of the set).

---PCJ

I love how the prices for K-line 21" car are "stupid" or "ridiculous" yet the prices just keep climbing and climbing...guess there are lot more suckers out there than sane people. On the other hand, I was once told that if you're the only sane one left, perhaps you're not.

Look at the highly problematic ABS 21" cars from Lionel, they are roughly half the price of the K-lines. The K-line cars however are well known for their highly reliable running, and aluminum bodies. Maybe those idiots who love them do so for a reason.

I would not call them "rare", but hard to find and "highly desirable" based on resale prices are the MTH Premier M1A Abrams Tank flat cars. 

Cataloged in 2007, the 20-98580 (European green) and 20-98603 (Desert) flat cars, as well as individual cars from 20-90361 and 20-90402 6-car set breakups, are regularly reselling north of $150 each on the big resale site.

Steve Glynn's MTH Product Reference Guide shows "Average" production for the individual cars and "Below Avg" production on the 6-car sets.  

It will be interesting to watch how that resale price is affected by the new individual M1A Abrams flat cars and 4-car set releases from the 2019 v1 catalog.

K Line's NYC 28th anniversary set seems to be fairly rare. I bought a set 2 years ago for short money and hardly ever see these cars for sale. 

John 

One thing I learned a long time ago in a different collecting hobby is that it is REALLY EASY to find out what is rare and desirable. Just look for what you DON'T SEE AND NEVER SEE on eBay. That is the stuff that is rare. It never makes it to eBay. These are the train show transactions that never make it out of the parking lot--the ones where the guy can't even get his car unloaded. These are the antique transactions from estate sales that take place from one estate liquidator to another or to an auction house long before the estate sale is ever made "public". 

Desirable is discovered by checking professional, off-line auction results (not eBay). When the auctioneer's catalog projected the selling price range as $6,500-$9,200 and the final bid was $15,900, you are getting a good measurement of "desirability" of that item in that condition and possibly in that region or country.

I'm no expert. But close observation will usually reveal what we want to know.

Don

Railride,   I have the Golden Outlook Vista Dome, and the additional 8, for a total of 9 cars in my Golden State consist.  My Golden Outlook Vista has the catalog number of K4632-2984.  Yes, I was a member of the KCC and acquired my set through the membership.  Mine also has the same car number of 2984.  For motive power I purchased the Rock Island E8s A-A with TMCC/RS, and although semi-scale, the S.P Pacific with Vanderbilt tender, K3388-2488IC.

Thanks to all for the interesting topic and information.

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

laz1957 posted:

Lionel scale GGI,in Penn Central, only 90 were made.

Not sure where that quantity came from, but it's not right.

TRW

texastrain posted:

Railride,   I have the Golden Outlook Vista Dome, and the additional 8, for a total of 9 cars in my Golden State consist.  My Golden Outlook Vista has the catalog number of K4632-2984.  Yes, I was a member of the KCC and acquired my set through the membership.  Mine also has the same car number of 2984.  For motive power I purchased the Rock Island E8s A-A with TMCC/RS, and although semi-scale, the S.P Pacific with Vanderbilt tender, K3388-2488IC.

Thanks to all for the interesting topic and information.

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

I also was in the KCC, and acquired the bulk of my set that way. Some cars I got through the "member store" at their Toy Fair open house. That's how I found out about the second dome--but they were already sold out by then. Since that point, I've only come across the Golden Outlook once on Ebay soon after, and bailed out of the auction when the bids exceeded $100 (the GS cars were going for about $60-ish at the time). I have the E8 locos, but passed on the SP steamer and express boxcar.

So figuring that I my never get my hands on the dome in question, I elected to add a trio of MTH Golden Rocket cars (I think they were unboxed production samples, which is why there were just three) to my consist.

---PCJ

Apparently this Lionel No. 35454 Amtrak Amfleet Cab-controlled End Car is very scarce, very high dollar.

Finding late production K-Line O42 switches with the motor not the solenoid has gotten to be quite a hunt, especially in the O-27 rail profile.

MTH Country Depot Railking 30-90303 2008 due to some kind of court settlement. No longer will be produced.

 stock online photo.

My K line 11 car SF passenger set pulled by MTH's A-B-B-A set video:

Got them when they were produced.  Always thought K line had the best passenger cars. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr5wq5dQx2k

RailRide posted:

texastrain posted:

Railride,   I have the Golden Outlook Vista Dome, and the additional 8, for a total of 9 cars in my Golden State consist.  My Golden Outlook Vista has the catalog number of K4632-2984.  Yes, I was a member of the KCC and acquired my set through the membership.  Mine also has the same car number of 2984.  For motive power I purchased the Rock Island E8s A-A with TMCC/RS, and although semi-scale, the S.P Pacific with Vanderbilt tender, K3388-2488IC.

Thanks to all for the interesting topic and information.

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

I also was in the KCC, and acquired the bulk of my set that way. Some cars I got through the "member store" at their Toy Fair open house. That's how I found out about the second dome--but they were already sold out by then. Since that point, I've only come across the Golden Outlook once on Ebay soon after, and bailed out of the auction when the bids exceeded $100 (the GS cars were going for about $60-ish at the time). I have the E8 locos, but passed on the SP steamer and express boxcar.

So figuring that I my never get my hands on the dome in question, I elected to add a trio of MTH Golden Rocket cars (I think they were unboxed production samples, which is why there were just three) to my consist.

---PCJ

There are actually three dome cars if you count the factory error. I would have to get mine out of storage to get the details, but there were a few domes that were mis-marked and had the number of the set dome, and the name of the add-on dome. This car is really rare but it is not expensive.  Unfortunately, the Golden State had no domes so I'm not sure I'll run my domes.

I'm not sure how rare, but the Lionel scale PRR T1 from 2000 only had one run, and because of the MTH lawsuit it may never be made again.  While MTH has made a zillion (or more) of their version of the two prototype T1s, there are not many models of the 50 production T1s.  And the Lionel version in really good.

Mine is also a bit rarer in that the four inside drivers, which were too wide and shorted on some switches, have been beveled so this is no longer a problem.

Railride,   Yes, like seeing added cars to the 18" GS consist.  I have a set of Williams 18" Rock Island Golden Rocket cars I sometimes add to my GS.  Cannot use the Observation, naturally, but do use the two Pullmans, the Vista and REA baggage cars.  They, too, are extruded aluminum and have same color scheme as the GS consist.  And, yes, the K Line R.I. E8s do pull them well... on a level track main line......

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

texastrain posted:

 And, yes, the K Line R.I. E8s do pull them well... on a level track main line......

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

 

The Lionel RI E6 AA set is also a good engine to pull the GS.  E6s pulled the GS in the mid-late 40s, and the Lionel cab numbers (628, 630) are the engines that pulled the GS.  I bought two sets for two powered A units to pull the GS consist (I have extra GS cars).

Also, the Lionel RI E6s can probably qualify as semi-rare because you seldom see them for sale (it took me over two years to find my second set).  They are currently getting ERR cruise installed so I don't have a good picture, but here is one from a while back.

Ron,     Cannot agree more!  Any consist pulled by E6s is a great looking set of cars.  The profile of all the early E series motive powers are my favorite.  No matter what colors/railroad, IMO, anything from the EA to E6s are favorites.  Need to locate E6s in RI to add to those I have.

Jesse 

Any BLI ho PRR steam loco besides the H10.

CAPPilot posted:

RailRide posted:

 

There are actually three dome cars if you count the factory error. I would have to get mine out of storage to get the details, but there were a few domes that were mis-marked and had the number of the set dome, and the name of the add-on dome. This car is really rare but it is not expensive.  Unfortunately, the Golden State had no domes so I'm not sure I'll run my domes.

Well, if you ever decide you can do without a dome, I'm still looking

---PCJ

dk122trains posted:

NYC superliner set 4 pack 2 pack and station sound car.Have them but rarely seen at shows and crazy prices on bay.

I think you're right about Lionel 18" aluminum Superliners.   Not necessarily hard to find or rare but these days older Lionel Superliners don't show up very often.  Probably because they are aluminum and are the perfect size.  

How about the saga of Right of Way.  Their first big loco-- the C&O 2-6-6-2-- came out at $1200 and sold out.  About 10 years ago I purchased one LN in the box for about $700 and thought I had a great deal until a few months later I bought their B&O 2-6-6-2 on Ebay for $306.  I ended up buying two ROW 2-8-8-0s, a Shay, and a T-1 and I'm happy I did. Of course these brass beauties are technologically obsolete, but so am I.  And many ROW offerings are now truly rare, but few want them. 

Lew

Any MTH 2-rail steam or even some 2-rail Diesels.

texastrain posted:

Railride,   I have the Golden Outlook Vista Dome, and the additional 8, for a total of 9 cars in my Golden State consist.  My Golden Outlook Vista has the catalog number of K4632-2984.  Yes, I was a member of the KCC and acquired my set through the membership.  Mine also has the same car number of 2984.  For motive power I purchased the Rock Island E8s A-A with TMCC/RS, and although semi-scale, the S.P Pacific with Vanderbilt tender, K3388-2488IC.

Thanks to all for the interesting topic and information.

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

I've been looking for that car too! It is rarely listed for sale.

A new BNSF Heritage SD70ACE 6-38741 just sold for over a grand on Ebay. Wish I had one but too rich for my blood.

lewrail posted:

How about the saga of Right of Way...

Lew

Lew, 

  Thanks for bringing up Right-Of-Way. It took me a couple of years, but I found an affordable version of their B&O C-16 Dockside Switcher.

Tom

Weaver has been mentioned. In particular their TOFCs and the ones made for clubs. Many of those are bringing triple figures and most of the ones Weavers sold themselves sell for above list price and certainly above street price when new.

As for the particular K-Line UP Observation Sam started this thread with, its price got me thinking again of Lionel. I purchased a few of the most recent run of 21" cars and found them well built with zero flaws other than the gray paint being too dark for Harbor mist. Hopefully they have turned the corner with their passenger cars.

Pete