I am fairly new to the hobby, just upgraded my track from Lionel to Garagraves and switches from Lionel to Ross. Ran 16 gauge bus wiring with track connections about every 8'. Running TMCC and having difficulty trying to figure out the wiring for the Ross 175, the engines run fine when they run straight through the switch, but lose power briefly at the diamond when I use the crossover. My transformer is a ZW with 2 135's. Do not plan to wire the z1000's until the 175 works properly. Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated. 

 

Original Post

Reference the Ross technical info regarding the 175...

Ross 175 Link

...and note the comment at the head of this technical sheet...

"It may be necessary to power the diamond rails using a relay if you are running equipment with rollers on only one set of trucks"....and, of course, other situations in which the roller span/location leads to interruption over the diamond.  It's the DZ1008 relay that enables the power transfer to the diamond according to the track alignment...per their wiring diagram on the link.

And.....when all else fails, there's the '800' number at the bottom of the sheet......where you will find the nicest, most helpful people in the hobby ready to answer your questions!

MONTEB53,

I have a hard time following Ross's (and Z-Stuffs) diagrams so I built new ones that are somewhat easier for me to follow.  Even though this is for the DZ-2500 machines and not the DZ-1000s, how the relay is hooked up is the same.  Maybe it will help.

RCS Double Crossover Wiring

You may only need the diamond powered for your trains to cross.  I power my diamond from a wire from the center rail.  If the engine still stalls after the diamond is powered, you need rails '1' and rails '2' powered.  To ensure you have correct polarity when the train crosses the diamond, you will need to use a relay to alternate power between rails '1' and rails '2'.  The DZ-1008A is a bit expensive but works with the DZ switch machine.

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Thanks for the suggestions, the wiring instructions were included with the switch but with my limited wiring experience it all seems like a foreign language. It's much more complicated that the simple Lionel lock on, please tell me that it is worth it in the long run. My wife keeps asking when I am going to get to enjoy running the trains instead of wiring the track. 

It's been about 25 years since I installed mine. I would pretty much solder a wire to every rail. Especially the isolated ones. Getting it working correctly for just for the engines you have is fine for now. Get that done with out getting into complicated wiring. At some point you may get a new one that won't navigate the crossover. It may just be a matter of pickup roller spacing on that engine. What many people overlook is the outside rails. With blind drivers and rubber traction tires. Often times it's the wheels looking for a return path that causes the stall.

 As mentioned. You can do a lot of creative things with relays. Making one rail serve as a powered center rail or an outside rail depending upon the path of the engine. Often times studying it. You can see what has to be done. Even if the wires are not connected now from every rail. It's best to have them soldered in place if you need them some day. It's no fun running wires to something that's hard to remove or leaning over the bench work with it in place. When it can be done at the work bench now.

The Ross 175 Crossover is possibly one of the best pieces you can buy in this hobby, IMHO.

Been running mine since 2004 or 2005 with zero issues.

On the wiring, doing the work upfront is worth it in the end.  And if you're new to the game, it will take longer.....at first.   You just keep plugging along. 

MonteB53 posted:

Running TMCC and having difficulty trying to figure out the wiring for the Ross 175, the engines run fine when they run straight through the switch, but lose power briefly at the diamond when I use the crossover. My transformer is a ZW with 2 135's. Do not plan to wire the z1000's until the 175 works properly. Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated. 

 

First, is the diamond powered? Our biggest problem is not the switch or the pick-up roller spacing. Rather it is loss of common due to blind wheels and rubber tires on the locomotives. As mentioned you can wire all the rails up prior to installation and test. You may discover not needing the relays to power the various dead rails after all. We have even just cut a few of the relay power wires after having some issues with the DZ2500's not throwing all the way internally and causing shorts and things run fine thru even the large switches. As mentioned, the Ross staff are great.

Last edited by BobbyD

Monte:

Please see attached file. I put this together to help me wire my cross over for non-derail and powering the diamonds. Non-derail is easy - isolated track and one wire to the switch machine. Powering the diamond rails is more complicated. It involves using a 1008 relay to turn power on and off depending on the direction the locomotive is going. Hopefully this file wiring diagram will be easier to follow.

Joe

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If you replace the Delrin [?] diamond with an aluminum one [from Ross, I believe]  and provide it with center-rail power,  you shouldn't even need to worry about powering rails 1 & 2.  Mine works just fine this way.  [I also added my own version of non-derail that works perfectly;  but that's a subject for a different day...or thread.]

Phil,

Thanks for the information, will contact Ross Custom Switches. Steve Ross did respond to my email inquiry and said using  the DZ 1008 would solve the problem. 

 

Monte

 

 

Finally trying to finish up the wiring on the Ross Double Crossover, have all switch machines working properly. Have not properly wired the 1008 relay because still losing power on the diamond when set in crossover, works fine in default. The double crossover came pre-wired so only have to wire one side of the diamond. Currently have the pre-wired section on the left side,  and wired the right side with white wire going to the #2 rail and the gray to the #1 rail. (Not sure if it matters of the pre-wired section is on the right or left side of the diamond, maybe it is installed upside down).  The 1008 is next to the lower left hand switch, and the rail power is connected to the lower right hand side of the switch. Steve Ross confirmed the location of the 1008 relay and track power, did not think to ask him about the pre-wired side of the diamond. Not an electrician and not confident things are wired correctly.   Please let me know what I am missing, the only other thing I thought of is the possibility of a bad solder connection underneath.  Thanks for all your help and knowledge. 

Do you have a meter to measure voltage and continuity?

Is this a one roller pick-up engine?

Are both loops that you are crossing between on the same power? (for instance, the A handle on the transformer and hot (red) output)

Are you operating the trains transformer controlled or command controlled?

Thanks for all the responses.

4 engines, (Legacy) 1 Lionel  NP Light Mikado with excursion tender, 1 Lionel NP Heavy Mikado, 1 Lionel new Lionel Berkshire NP 765 , the last one is Lionel Odyssey Blue Comet (2003).  Running TMMC (have a Legacy controller but have not removed it from the box).  Single loop bus wiring. Have a continuity tester, what wires or track do I need to test? Will get a picture and post it tomorrow. Thanks again for all your assistance.

MonteB53 posted:

Thanks for all the responses.

4 engines, (Legacy) 1 Lionel  NP Light Mikado with excursion tender, 1 Lionel NP Heavy Mikado, 1 Lionel new Lionel Berkshire NP 765 , the last one is Lionel Odyssey Blue Comet (2003).  Running TMMC (have a Legacy controller but have not removed it from the box).  Single loop bus wiring. Have a continuity tester, what wires or track do I need to test? Will get a picture and post it tomorrow. Thanks again for all your assistance.

Does that answer(in RED above) imply that all of track is on one power supply?

It doesn't appear like the issue is losing the hot with those engines.  it is a track wiring issue.

I would suggest disconnecting the transformer connection, remove all engines and cars from the track and perform continuity testing around the cross-over in Ohms mode.

All center rails should across track joints and the crossover should read infinity. Then, check the outside rails. Outside rail to outside rail should be the same. Outside rail across joints should be the same.

When doing these across the switch you will confirm if all the rails are connected correctly. Finding an area of rail with no reading indicates that section has no connection for power or common.

Disconnecting the transformer isolates the track. There should not be continuity between any center rail and any outside rail with the transformer disconnected. If there is, you have discovered a short.

obviously, you want to focus on the switch, but a missing common connection adjoining  the switch could be cause.

get all of the connections correct, connect the transformer and the power will be where it should be.

If the diamond isn't powered that would be my first guess. Second guess would be loss of common rail and the opposite side wheels being on plastic or insulated parts. What is the pick-up roller center to center distances on these engines? ? The fact that all of them stop seems to be the crossover wiring,

It will most likely be an easy fix. You could also show in a sketch what rails have wires hooked to them and where the outers are connected.

Thanks for your suggestions, finally had some time today to work on the switch. Have not completed the continuity test because  I misplaced my tester; plan to buy a new one tomorrow. Disconnected the 1008 relay and now 2 of my locomotives, (new Lionel Berkshire 765 Legacy and older Odyssey Blue Comet),  work fine when going across the switch in all directions. The Lionel Legacy Heavy Mikado works fine most of the time,  occasionally it loses volume when crossing the switch but it does not stall. Would think that is related to tmcc losing power/connection, the reduced volume does not always happen in the same location, it normally occurs before crossing the diamond.  The Lionel Legacy Light Mikado always stalls, it does not short out the power, or shut down, it just stalls at the center of the diamond. If I reverse directions, it will back off the diamond but stalls again if I try to go forward across the diamond.  Will try and do the continuity test tomorrow, also wondering if it would be prudent to have each loop (3 of them) on it's own bus wiring right now all loops are on a single bus.

Thanks again for all of your assistance. 

 

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