I would like to wire my layout the same way it shows in the picture here hoping it would stop the stalling of both my tmcc and legacy engines can this setup be done??I have the Lionel TPC 400 and the Lionel Legacy hooked up to my current layout what gauge wire would i need if went the that rout shown in the picture could I use the MTH 24 Port Terminal Block / Strip and could I wire my layout the same way shown In the picture showing wires going to section of tracks
I don't run command and sound either; the electronics remind me of past work 
the mood has to be just right for me to enjoy them.
Interference is a case by case thing. I've worked on electronics that would refuse to operate correctly based on what outlet in a room was used, what type of hight voltage step down to local 440v was used, etc etc.. Just be confident very few folks don't track down their gremlin or have many (but a select few have put more than a fair share of effort to win... Cross the fingers; good luck )
The chicken wire is an issue, gypsum content of wall material is another. Either of the two can perform sheilding.
If I'm not mistaken the signal is run in the household ground. But regardless, one of the three is the carrier.
The answer is here somewhere if you search... but I usually try simple stuff by trial and error process of elimination and there's only two things to try and experiment with.
1. I'd start with the ground and try to simply run a wire along the "nice tunnel 
ceiling to household ground. (Assuming it has a modern ground installation). Use an outlet cover screw, that's should be ground. At the transformer is fine. If that didn't help, 2. a cheap extention cord would run the other two at once. But I'm pretty sure it's ground vs piggybacks on the two active lives.
How are you going to deal with the tunnel portals vs new track dia.? Tear it out, or only tear out what's needed.
It's always a shocker to me to a nice one like that get razed
Yes, you can definitely wire your layout like in the diagram you show. It is always good to have even power distribution. For a layout of your size, 16 gauge wire should be plenty good. You can use the MTH terminal block, but you don't have to. Wire nuts at the wire junctions work well enough.
I just want to make sure you are clear on the fact that that re-wiring the layout will probably not fix your TMCC / Legacy problem. TMCC is not picky about perfect layout wiring. (DCS is, but TMCC is not.) At my parents' we have a layout that is something like 17 x 30. It was built over the course of a decade, and the plan changed a few times. It was wired with whatever was lying around, or whatever was on sale. It's a rat's nest under there. And TMCC works just fine. What TMCC is picky about is interference. And that, I think, is why you are having trouble at the tunnel, because it is creating interference.
What Adriatic is suggesting, basically, is to get around the interference problem by putting a TMCC antenna inside the tunnel. Definitely try that. Get a single wire, and crimp one end under the screw in the center of the wall plate on an electric outlet. Make sure it is a 3-prong outlet. Run the other end thru the tunnel. The wire must not connect, electrically, to anything other than the screw at the wall outlet. This wire will serve as an antenna to get TMCC signal into the tunnel. See if that helps. (Try a couple outlets if the first one doesn't work, just in case you have non-standard wiring on some of them).
Unfortunately, Lionel's own documentation is not always super helpful on TMCC signal issues. The late Dale Manquen did us all a great favor by figuring this stuff out some years back.
flemming posted:Outer loop. It stalls at the curve section marked with a black dot on the layout right before the main big mountain tunnel begins.
I still don't understand why the engines stop at a single track that is outside the tunnel, but then I don't know anything about TMCC. I would think that if the chicken wire is the problem, the engines would stop somewhere in the tunnel.
Be that as it may, you said in an email that you laid a piece of solid wire near that spot and the problem went away. That suggests the signal is the problem and adding multiple power drops should fix things. Here's a diagram using your design with 3 power blocks. If this were DCS, I'd have twice as many blocks, but 3 might be enough for TMCC. The large brown rectangle is the transformer and the smaller one is a terminal strip. Maybe 14 gauge from transformer to strip and 16 or 18 gauge from there to tracks?
I got my order of mth realtax of O42 curve 12 pcs I just put them on a piece plywood I had laying around to test my tmcc engine it goes around the circle just fine but when i try to run it on my main layout that uses lionel fastrack but It stalls that puzzle me
Did you try the conventional test? I assumed you had. If it stalls in conventional without a system hooked up, just a transformer, then you have dead track there.
Is it stopping inside the tunnels as you began with, outside the tunnel, or both, and what temp. solution was applied and what changed if anything....???
A weak connection could stop the signal also. Not 100% bad, but weak. With a train on the problem track take a voltage reading from that track compared to elsewhere. I.e. a bad connection can flow low amp at full volts, but try to pull any amps and the voltage drops fast and hard; maybe stops flow altogether; a signal is even more sensitive to any weak connections.
Anyhow, I think you'll know soon enough if the track was the issue or if the signal is being blocked.
Mark those track sections where it stops now as you pull it out so later you can address it.
Adriatic posted:
Did you try the conventional test? I assumed you had. If it stalls in conventional without a system hooked up, just a transformer, then you have dead track there.
Is it stopping inside the tunnels as you began with, outside the tunnel, or both, and what temp. solution was applied and what changed if anything....???
A weak connection could stop the signal also. Not 100% bad, but weak. With a train on the problem track take a voltage reading from that track compared to elsewhere. I.e. a bad connection can flow low amp at full volts, but try to pull any amps and the voltage drops fast and hard; maybe stops flow altogether; a signal is even more sensitive to any weak connections.
Anyhow, I think you'll know soon enough if the track was the issue or if the signal is being blocked.
Mark those track sections where it stops now as you pull it out so later you can address it.
It stall at the before the tunnel the I give it a shove it starts up then stalls inside the tunnel
Ok . Are there any power connections to bus, between these two points?
You may have two issues. One section of bad track and signal loss in the tunnel. Run the "ground wire antenna" test see if it helps either spot. There is also another thing having to do with close parrallel track field isolation, but it's complicated. Start here if you want to hunt before you do anything.
Widows under the layout! 
Actually, that happened to a cousins ho layout. A "pet" got away. He raised and sold scorpion, tarantula, widows, and rattle snakes.
Once she spun a web he got her. He sprayed something chemical, and something herbal at the doors and vents plus did a bleach washdown. Never did see the train run; the room, in between the washroom and lower level garage was sealed and off limits for the winter so a out a year total. But that could have been my Aunt & Uncle's call AND he was breeding ...?
Call a pro.
If you can catch them without dying there's a market. They weren't cheap. But they love to get out and babies are oh so tiny. A bunch of tarantula would have sat better with me 
.
Adriatic posted:Ok . Are there any power connections to bus, between these two points?
You may have two issues. One section of bad track and signal loss in the tunnel. Run the "ground wire antenna" test see if it helps either spot. There is also another thing having to do with close parrallel track field isolation, but it's complicated. Start here if you want to hunt before you do anything.
Widows under the layout!
Actually, that happened to a cousins ho layout. A "pet" got away. He raised and sold scorpion, tarantula, widows, and rattle snakes.
Once she spun a web he got her. He sprayed something chemical, and something herbal at the doors and vents plus did a bleach washdown. Never did see the train run; the room, in between the washroom and lower level garage was sealed and off limits for the winter so a out a year total. But that could have been my Aunt & Uncle's call AND he was breeding ...?
Call a pro.
If you can catch them without dying there's a market. They weren't cheap. But they love to get out and babies are oh so tiny. A bunch of tarantula would have sat better with me
If I did the way Dave's diagram shows in the photo can I use this MTH block terminal when bus wiring my layout
flemming posted:If I did the way Dave's diagram shows in the photo can I use this MTH block terminal when bus wiring my layout
That was just a basic idea and not intended to be an actual wiring diagram. But yes, the MTH terminal strips can be used, though there are many terminal strips on the market.
In any case, the diagram shows Block Wiring where main wires are run to 1 or more strategically located terminal strips and from there to individual connection points. Rather than run 3 long wires to each connection point, you run 1 long wire to the terminal strip and then shorter wires from there.
This photo shows Bus Wiring where 1 (or more) main wires are run around the track and then much shorter "drops" are connected to various points. In both examples, the idea is to separate the track into blocks and then run wires to a track in the middle of those blocks so power gets distributed fairly evenly.
A terminal block can help you keep things straight by labeling &/or a list, and it can speed connections along by avoiding some splice work, but it isn't a necessity. I use an older "universal" no-name terminal block and like to cut apart nylon euro terminal blocks for the screw set splice ability vs connections vs a crimp, etc.. (the best blocks have a wire gripping jaw inserts connected to the screw tip vs a screw tip alone. Without finesse the tip can mangle and cut wire if it gets turned too tight... they still work ok though)
flemming posted:flemming posted:DoubleDAZ posted:flemming posted:Outer loop. It stalls at the curve section marked with a black dot on the layout right before the main big mountain tunnel begins.
I still don't understand why the engines stop at a single track that is outside the tunnel, but then I don't know anything about TMCC. I would think that if the chicken wire is the problem, the engines would stop somewhere in the tunnel.
Be that as it may, you said in an email that you laid a piece of solid wire near that spot and the problem went away. That suggests the signal is the problem and adding multiple power drops should fix things. Here's a diagram using your design with 3 power blocks. If this were DCS, I'd have twice as many blocks, but 3 might be enough for TMCC. The large brown rectangle is the transformer and the smaller one is a terminal strip. Maybe 14 gauge from transformer to strip and 16 or 18 gauge from there to tracks?
witch wiring diagram would be best to use with a terminal block so I can get started as soon as I get rid of the black widow spiders they have made there home under my train table to keep my Tmcc and Legacy engine from stalling on the layout
flemming posted:witch wiring diagram would be best to use with a terminal block so I can get started as soon as I get rid of the black widow spiders they have made there home under my train table
Like I said, I don't know anything about TMCC, so I'm going to have to let someone more knowledgeable comment. I don't know how many blocks this size layout should have, how many tracks in each block, etc. With DCS we tend to break things into blocks of 10'-13' lengths with 10 joints per block and the center tracks are isolated between blocks. We tend to use what we call Star Wiring, which is like my first example, though some use Bus Wiring too without problems. Maybe Adriatic will comment, but if no one responds, perhaps this is a question for the Electrical forum.
posted:A terminal block can help you keep things straight by labeling &/or a list, and it can speed connections along by avoiding some splice work, but it isn't a necessity. I use an older "universal" no-name terminal block and like to cut apart nylon euro terminal blocks for the screw set splice ability vs connections vs a crimp, etc.. (the best blocks have a wire gripping jaw inserts connected to the screw tip vs a screw tip alone. Without finesse the tip can mangle and cut wire if it gets turned too tight... they still work ok though)
Reaching out to Adriatic about the the two diagram witch wiring diagram would you use if you were in my place adding a terminal block one diagram has more wiring around the layout then the other diagram tying to take care of the stalling of both my TMCC and LEGACY Locomotives
I'm pretty sure Tmcc blocks are more about separation of of additional transformers/ bricks, than being there for signal reasons like with dts. With Tmcc the feeds don't HAVE to be blocks, but can be drops instead. A drop off a bus still delivers power easier than rails alone can. Plain and simple, the more drops the less voltage drop, which is good.
Actually. This wiring isn't really 'blocks' to me because it's from one source. It's a bus and drops to equalized isolated branches, but I roll with it 
DC's likes equal branches I guess. Tmcc doesn't usually, if ever, suffer from it that I've heard of, so why not? I often build with "if" in mind.
IMO The only reason to differ would be focused more on conventional running alternative, where I like to add power drops in the curves because that's where they slow down and a good feed really helps. But Dave's second grouping actually looks pretty good for both dts & conventional both. The Tmcc is less concerned and just wants it's unbroken track path and signal airspace around it.
I had the last tab open for for hours before using it, didn't see the question right away
The more drops the better, but it may or may not help any signal issues. Those signal issues never have one single cut and dry or one size fits all solution. A solution is found beginning with a process of elimination.
I can't even take a stab at it without the results from the conventional testing; I don't know your even getting power there on the spot outside the tunnel or in.
Mostly when folks ask a series of questions it is in an attempt to piece together a puzzle. I didn't get enough answers to do that .
With more drops a terminal board would be nice. That's why they are made. But nice and necessary are two different things.
At this point I'd likely set up the new track loosely, and use the wire you have. If the problem occurs again with the new track, then you know track is not the issue and you can address the signal alone; before the track is perminantly set.
Adriatic posted:I had the last tab open for for hours before using it, didn't see the question right away
The more drops the better, but it may or may not help any signal issues. Those signal issues never have one single cut and dry or one size fits all solution. A solution is found beginning with a process of elimination.
I can't even take a stab at it without the results from the conventional testing; I don't know your even getting power there on the spot outside the tunnel or in.
Mostly when folks ask a series of questions it is in an attempt to piece together a puzzle. I didn't get enough answers to do that .
With more drops a terminal board would be nice. That's why they are made. But nice and necessary are two different things.
At this point I'd likely set up the new track loosely, and use the wire you have. If the problem occurs again with the new track, then you know track is not the issue and you can address the signal alone; before the track is perminantly set.
I talked to my friend Jose hes is the one who made the tunnels and did the art work he told me he want's to redo the tunnels and remove the chicken wire from the tunnels what do you think Adriatic he also notice signal drops in both the TMCC and LEGACY engines
There's always the TMCC Buffer.
Adriatic posted:I'm pretty sure Tmcc blocks are more about separation of of additional transformers/ bricks, than being there for signal reasons like with dts. With Tmcc the feeds don't HAVE to be blocks, but can be drops instead. A drop off a bus still delivers power easier than rails alone can. Plain and simple, the more drops the less voltage drop, which is good.
Actually. This wiring isn't really 'blocks' to me because it's from one source. It's a bus and drops to equalized isolated branches, but I roll with it
DC's likes equal branches I guess. Tmcc doesn't usually, if ever, suffer from it that I've heard of, so why not? I often build with "if" in mind.
IMO The only reason to differ would be focused more on conventional running alternative, where I like to add power drops in the curves because that's where they slow down and a good feed really helps. But Dave's second grouping actually looks pretty good for both dts & conventional both. The Tmcc is less concerned and just wants it's unbroken track path and signal airspace around it.
My use of the term "block" simply suggests that the design be divided into segments with individual power runs to each of those segments. It doesn't mean the segments have to be isolated like you'd do with conventional block control wiring.
DCS doesn't require equal "branches", but it does seem to work best when both wires from the transformer or terminal strip are the same length. This suggests not using bus wiring, but there are people who do and have no problems. DCS also likes the center rail to be isolated between "blocks".
Like I said, I don't know TMCC or the "airspace" around it, but I think you're suggesting that no matter how the layout is wired, he may still have signal issues in and near the tunnel because of the chicken wire used for the tunnel, it seems to be affecting that "airspace" you mentioned.
My 1st example was just to show how a terminal strips fits in. I divided the layout into several color-coded segments, but I didn't run lines from the terminal strip to each of those segments. My 2nd example was just to show how a single "bus" would run around the layout and have multiple drops to various points. I also color-coded segments, but only as an illustration.
From what I gather, TMCC doesn't been "blocks", so the colors can be ignored in both examples and the layout considered one big "block" with terminal runs or drops spread around the layout. I think Flemming is looking for specific than just general explanations of wiring schemes. If it were my layout, I'd use the first approach with a terminal strip located in the center of the layout and runs something like this. Again, the colors are just for illustration purposes. I would probably add another run for the spur.
DoubleDAZ posted:Adriatic posted:I'm pretty sure Tmcc blocks are more about separation of of additional transformers/ bricks, than being there for signal reasons like with dts. With Tmcc the feeds don't HAVE to be blocks, but can be drops instead. A drop off a bus still delivers power easier than rails alone can. Plain and simple, the more drops the less voltage drop, which is good.
Actually. This wiring isn't really 'blocks' to me because it's from one source. It's a bus and drops to equalized isolated branches, but I roll with it
DC's likes equal branches I guess. Tmcc doesn't usually, if ever, suffer from it that I've heard of, so why not? I often build with "if" in mind.
IMO The only reason to differ would be focused more on conventional running alternative, where I like to add power drops in the curves because that's where they slow down and a good feed really helps. But Dave's second grouping actually looks pretty good for both dts & conventional both. The Tmcc is less concerned and just wants it's unbroken track path and signal airspace around it.
My use of the term "block" simply suggests that the design be divided into segments with individual power runs to each of those segments. It doesn't mean the segments have to be isolated like you'd do with conventional block control wiring.
DCS doesn't require equal "branches", but it does seem to work best when both wires from the transformer or terminal strip are the same length. This suggests not using bus wiring, but there are people who do and have no problems. DCS also likes the center rail to be isolated between "blocks".
Like I said, I don't know TMCC or the "airspace" around it, but I think you're suggesting that no matter how the layout is wired, he may still have signal issues in and near the tunnel because of the chicken wire used for the tunnel, it seems to be affecting that "airspace" you mentioned.
My 1st example was just to show how a terminal strips fits in. I divided the layout into several color-coded segments, but I didn't run lines from the terminal strip to each of those segments. My 2nd example was just to show how a single "bus" would run around the layout and have multiple drops to various points. I also color-coded segments, but only as an illustration.
From what I gather, TMCC doesn't been "blocks", so the colors can be ignored in both examples and the layout considered one big "block" with terminal runs or drops spread around the layout.
In this diagram wouldn't I use red and black wires
flemming posted:In this diagram wouldn't I use red and black wires
Yes, each line would consist of red and black wires, I didn't see the need to draw both.
DoubleDAZ posted:flemming posted:In this diagram wouldn't I use red and black wires
Yes, each line would consist of red and black wires, I didn't see the need to draw both.
Thank you Dave. Now all I have to do now is call the exsterminater to come and get rid of the black widow spiders that are making there web under neath the train table they like hanging out there I want to get rid of them so I can start doing the wireing with my helper and relocate the controls to the ouside of the layout and not have the controls in the middle of the layout
Your welcome, I hope the diagram helps. I'm having a friend check out the diagram, so I'll let you know if he suggests any changes or something different.
Dave posted: "Like I said, I don't know TMCC or the "airspace" around it, but I think you're suggesting that no matter how the layout is wired, he may still have signal issues in and near the tunnel because of the chicken wire used for the tunnel, it seems to be affecting that "airspace" you mentioned."
Bingo! The term "airspace" was chosen because two tracks in close proximity could also be an issue. Being similar issues "airspace" was all I could come up with to quickly convey all of my thoughts. The chicken wire can block a signal, creating a sheilding over that track that the airborne signal can't penetrate. The section outside the tunnel is the big twist. Two areas may or may not be the same issue. The issue with one section could be lack of power flow or signal. One is definitely a signal issue, maybe both. Running in conventional rules out track issues, leaving just a bad signal to consider. "Blocks" does the trick but I've always felt there was a better, more precise term out there somewhere to be used. The buffer is the booster I mentioned fyi. Redoing the mountains? I was worried you may have to redo tunnel portals near curves for engine/car clearance anyhow. I couldn't really tell if it was an issue But I think the addition of the buffer or ground/signal wire somewhere under the chicken wire is worth a shot unless you just want a good excuse for doing some new mountain work too.
It's like using an old TV rabbit ears antenna and asking where in the living room the antenna will work best. Every home and TV is a little different though they use the same system. You can set it on the TV and cross your fingers or experiment some with placement for best reception.
I'm not trying to talk you out of using bus wiring. I've never had a large layout, so I've never done bus wiring. But, you kept asking about the terminal strip and I didn't see a practical way to use it with bus wiring. I did see some diagrams that looked something like the photo where the main wires would run to the terminal strip and bus wires would run from that with drops off them to the track. I honestly don't know which would be better, easier to maintain, etc. Heck, I don't even know where you plan to put your transformer. I was just trying to illustrate the differences and give you ideas. I had expected others to chime in and suggest improvements to any of the diagrams, but that hasn't happened.
DoubleDAZ posted:I'm not trying to talk you out of using bus wiring. I've never had a large layout, so I've never done bus wiring. But, you kept asking about the terminal strip and I didn't see a practical way to use it with bus wiring. I did see some diagrams that looked something like the photo where the main wires would run to the terminal strip and bus wires would run from that with drops off them to the track. I honestly don't know which would be better, easier to maintain, etc. Heck, I don't even know where you plan to put your transformer. I was just trying to illustrate the differences and give you ideas. I had expected others to chime in and suggest improvements to any of the diagrams, but that hasn't happened.
where the brown box is in the diagram that looks like a transformer will Quick Splice Tap Wire Connectors work
flemming posted:where the brown box is in the diagram that looks like a transformer
The large brown box does represent a transformer while the smaller one in the middle represents a terminal strip. I don't know if you plan to put your control center there or not. I could have easily put it on one of the other sides, it was just easier in the software I use to put in there. I also did the color-coding without giving it serious consideration and I don't know if you have accessories that need power. Obviously the switch will need power, unless it's manual. And now that I know TMCC doesn't need "blocks" of any kind, the color-coding is not needed at all. One article I read said ideally every track would have a power drop, but that would be serious overkill. Adriatic said he wants to add drops on his curves because his trains slow down there. Now that I look at things, I kind of like the latest diagram because most electrical is along the edges, that means less crawling way under. That's why these diagrams are for illustration/discussion purposes only.
It looks great, but I don't like that type of connector. While stuffing the bus into the v-groove, wire strands often get cut. Each nicked or cut strand is a bad thing. It lowers the wire capability a wee bit. Other folks love them. I've had many bad experiences with similar and avoid them till they are my only hope.
Search for WAGO connectors or lever type connectors, they can be reused and may even be cheaper. I think you'll like them if you want things simple and changeable without as much future cost/waste.
A regular, smaller "euro terminal block" would mount more like what's pictured but do a better job imo. Remember you can buy Euro's in long strips and cut what you need; 1 or 20. They do need small jumpers to connect the side by side terminals, the connections are individual, two screws for a single in &an out on one tiny section; next to another, next to another etc.
Nothing "wrong" with anything I've seen Dave. I didn't feel a need to echo you being right, plus if you had email contact, don't know what I missed I was pleasantly surprised on that second one the DCS focus seemed so well balanced to the curves if conventional was used. As I said, I'd likely wire to be DCS ready as well. As for the actual insulating of the center rails from each other, that could come later with a dremel disk's slice.
Adriatic, you only missed a note about laying some wire near the stall location that resolved the signal problem, but I believe he mentioned that in the thread later too. That's when I realized it probably was a track problem and more likely your "air space" problem with the chicken wire in the tunnel. And since it's a garage layout without many electrical outlets/wiring, that tunnel could be blocking the signal enough to affect that one track just outside.
As for echoing, I'm not an expert at wiring, so I kind of needed the confirmation to know I was on the right track with the diagrams.
Adriatic posted:It looks great, but I don't like that type of connector. While stuffing the bus into the v-groove, wire strands often get cut. Each nicked or cut strand is a bad thing. It lowers the wire capability a wee bit. Other folks love them. I've had many bad experiences with similar and avoid them till they are my only hope.
Search for WAGO connectors or lever type connectors, they can be reused and may even be cheaper. I think you'll like them if you want things simple and changeable without as much future cost/waste.
I'm asking because I don't know, but isn't the idea behind bus wiring to use a "single" wire for the bus and tap into it with the drops? The Wago connectors and euro-style terminal strips are dead-end style connectors where you strip the end of the wires and plug then into the connector. If you want to extend the "bus", you need to add another wire to get to the next connector. That means the bus is no longer a single wire, but a series of daisy chained wires. I suspect either method will work just fine, so it's probably just a personal preference and using the right size wires.
Whew, what a great amount of info in this one thread. I am really into this. May I ask, on your layout, what is your % grade from the ground level to your bridge level. This is a current item I'm thinking about.
Thanks
Tommy
Hi Dave,
I don't know about the correct 'bus' terminology, but FWIW, I would consider the two examples in your picture to be identical in function. Nice drawings, BTW...still done in SCARM? (I finally broke down and purchased SCARM so I could view all your (and others) track plans posted around here.)
rtr12 posted:I don't know about the correct 'bus' terminology, but FWIW, I would consider the two examples in your picture to be identical in function. Nice drawings, BTW...still done in SCARM? (I finally broke down and purchased SCARM so I could view all your (and others) track plans posted around here.)
Thanks and yes, the diagram was done in SCARM though it would have been easier in RR-Track.
As far as functionally goes, I suspect either type of connector and wiring scheme would work. However, doesn't breaking the "bus" wire into multiple segments reduce conductivity? Maybe not enough to affect operation, but still a reduction? I always thought the idea behind bus wiring was to use a single wire so the signal would be stronger over a longer distance.
FWIW, I believe you would have been able to open any file in the trial version of SCARM, you just wouldn't have been able to make changes if the track count was more than 100. Always happy to see someone support Mixy's efforts though and I'm sure he appreciates the support. Now you can convert your design to SCARM and maybe play with some expansion ideas.
Tommy, I don't know if Flemming has decided yet how high his bridge will be, he hasn't said how high it is now. If he uses a standard trestle set, I believe the height will be 5". That's the height I used in the design and that puts the grades (purple) at 5.1% upper and 3.7% for lower. If he lowers the height to 3", the grades change to 3.1% and 2.2% respectively. If he reduces the number of tracks in the grades, the percentages increase and he's limited on the upper by the crossing.
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