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I see plenty of those resistors with signs of overheating but still in spec.  This is not a BCR only issue.  The voltage regulator that charges the battery and also runs the sounds/processor can fail.  Typically, when it fails it allows voltage to rise above set point with track voltage.  This is the reason for some engines that have normal sounds at low track voltage 9-11 but becomes static and distorted at track voltage above 12-13V.  The regulator failed.  So the battery charging is going to see that too.

Let's not make broad assumptions about BCR based on one data point, 10s of thousands of trains PS-1 to PS-2 are using BCR for decades.  All of a sudden there not safe?  It is the same with the old wives tail that dead batteries kill PS-2 5V boards.  I never accept that despite Marty resolute believe.  I had seen too many PS-1 through PS-2 5V boards with original battery 10-15 years old working fine.  PS-2 5V boards were designed on close margins given the tech used at the time.  Certain batches seemed to be on borrowed time.  Just an opinion though no one ever did a failure analysis on our trains.  G

@GGG posted:

I see plenty of those resistors with signs of overheating but still in spec.  This is not a BCR only issue.  The voltage regulator that charges the battery and also runs the sounds/processor can fail.  Typically, when it fails it allows voltage to rise above set point with track voltage.  This is the reason for some engines that have normal sounds at low track voltage 9-11 but becomes static and distorted at track voltage above 12-13V.  The regulator failed.  So the battery charging is going to see that too.

Let's not make broad assumptions about BCR based on one data point, 10s of thousands of trains PS-1 to PS-2 are using BCR for decades.  All of a sudden there not safe?  It is the same with the old wives tail that dead batteries kill PS-2 5V boards.  I never accept that despite Marty resolute believe.  I had seen too many PS-1 through PS-2 5V boards with original battery 10-15 years old working fine.  PS-2 5V boards were designed on close margins given the tech used at the time.  Certain batches seemed to be on borrowed time.  Just an opinion though no one ever did a failure analysis on our trains.  G

Would using Zener diodes (or resistors) across the Supercaps help prevent overcharging, or is that just going to provide another path for more current to flow through the affected resistor?

Last edited by Mike C
@GGG posted:

Zeners meant to balance voltage to the caps, no?  I don't really think there is a problem here.  Now and then you may lose a resistor, but it is not a pandemic.  G

I think he was thinking of limiting the voltage across the whole supercap array.  However, if the voltage is really rising and cooking the resistor, you'd need a pretty hefty Zener to fight the bridge rectifier that's supplying that voltage.   Besides, as you say, it's likely that a regulator has crapped out, so really fixing that is the cure.

Newbie here.  I'm an old school Lionel person.  Recently moved, got a larger area for my lay out and looking to upgrade to TMCC, DCS or and also run Old Conventional.  I wanted a trolley to run the streets around my downtown area.  My question is I recently purchased a 2009 MTH 30-5106-1 New York Transit Brill Semi-Convertible Trolley with Proto Sound 2.0 with the Digital Command System which includes Transit Stop.  The trolley is supposed to be New, No Box and the dealer said he tested it and everything functioned properly.  Seeing how this is 15 years old I'm concerned about the battery.  The instruction manual says the battery is good for up to 5 years and says it's a 2.4 volt self charging battery.  My 1st question is, is it as simple as just taking the shell off and removing the battery, replacing the shell, putting it on the track for a few minutes to charge up the battery before running?  Question 2 if you replace the standard battery with a BCR should you also then charge it up once you have the shell back on.  I don't intend to use this till the lay out is completed.  I know the BCR is a set of capacitors but my fear is if this sits for 6 months with a dead battery or BCR that I might fry the board when I start it up.  The instruction manual doesn't seem to cover any of this.  I do know if I put a standard battery in, MTH has a charger you can plug in to maintain the battery.  Question 3 any way to check voltage of the battery without removing the shell?  Any information would be appreciated! 

You don't have a problem with either the battery or the BCR.  For PS/1, you want to let the engine sit powered up for around a minute before trying to put it in motion.  For PS/2, it'll run without the battery being charged, but it's best to give it a minute or two after a long idle period.

As for what to use, I make my own supercap battery replacements.

3V Battery Replacement.

9V Battery Replacement.

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@Buco posted:

John:

I like to "recycle", so I cut the old "white" MTH battery case (sometimes the green one's too), remove the dead cells, replace them with two "in series" super caps (thank you for the cap part number), solder leads to the existing terminal top, seal them up again, and label them accordingly.

DSC03445DSC03446

They work a treat!!!

Peter.....Buco Australia.

That's brilliant.

Speaking as a reformed adolescent who used to saw stuff open just to see what's inside (and lived to tell about it), how did you know that the case could be cut in that location without cutting into the cells?

@Mallard4468 posted:

That's brilliant.

Speaking as a reformed adolescent who used to saw stuff open just to see what's inside (and lived to tell about it), how did you know that the case could be cut in that location without cutting into the cells?

I imagine just cutting one and finding out!

@Buco posted:

I like to "recycle", so I cut the old "white" MTH battery case (sometimes the green one's too), remove the dead cells, replace them with two "in series" super caps (thank you for the cap part number), solder leads to the existing terminal top, seal them up again, and label them accordingly.

They work a treat!!!

That works just fine, nice job.  I did a couple that way, but it was too labor intensive, using the Keystone #68 battery connector and a little heatshrink is much quicker.

Yeh Gunrunner......but I'm a Scot, and I have to "penny-pinch". Can't afford those battery connectors, especially when I already have them on the tops of the old batteries!!!!

Alan: They cost me around $10.00 Aus to make (that would be about $7.00 US), and as I have plenty of spare time (joined the ranks of the retired several years ago) I am happy to sit in the workshop and "cut" away with a heavy duty Stanley knife. I won a stack of these white batteries in one of the early MTH warehouse clearance auctions (Cabin Fever) that gave me the idea of "recycling".

Mallard: Like GunrunnerJohn said.....pick a place and start cutting. I cut the first one in half, but then realized there is a small piece of plastic molded into the top section of the shell (terminal end) that could be used to help strengthen and hold the top section in place with the bottom section, when I went to re-assemble them. Trial and error!!!

Peter.....Buco Australia.

@Buco posted:

Yeh Gunrunner......but I'm a Scot, and I have to "penny-pinch". Can't afford those battery connectors, especially when I already have them on the tops of the old batteries!!!!

Alan: They cost me around $10.00 Aus to make (that would be about $7.00 US), and as I have plenty of spare time (joined the ranks of the retired several years ago) I am happy to sit in the workshop and "cut" away with a heavy duty Stanley knife. I won a stack of these white batteries in one of the early MTH warehouse clearance auctions (Cabin Fever) that gave me the idea of "recycling".

Mallard: Like GunrunnerJohn said.....pick a place and start cutting. I cut the first one in half, but then realized there is a small piece of plastic molded into the top section of the shell (terminal end) that could be used to help strengthen and hold the top section in place with the bottom section, when I went to re-assemble them. Trial and error!!!

Peter.....Buco Australia.

Peter, you're buying the caps in the wrong place.  I don't know what the Keystone #68 battery clip costs down under, but Aliexpress sells the 1.5F 5.5V supercaps in the $1.00-$1.50 range.  I suspect shipping to you can't be that expensive, it's sure cheap all the way to the US.

@Buco posted:

You're right John.....I am being ripped-off.

I purchase them from Element14 (only electronic store I know that can supply these particular super caps here in Australia) and I pay $4.90 AU each for them!!!!.......but I do get free shipping!!!

I will have to look into getting them out of the States.

Peter......Buco Australia.

I've give you free shipping too if you were paying that much for the product!   You don't get them from the US, but from China for the cheap prices.  I use Aliexpress.

Interesting.  I've placed several hundred orders over the last few years with them.  I've only had issues a handful of times, and I've always been able to resolve them without losing money.  I only lost a few bucks once when I didn't check the shipment until well after any return window, my fault.  I find stuff like obsolete IC's that are already unobtainium here in the US from them.

@Buco posted:

Mentioned the word "Aliexpress" to Sue, and she almost had a melt-down!!!

Apparently she does not have a good word to say about them.....not supplying what was ordered, I believe was the "censored" reply.

I'll keep on looking John.

Peter....Buco Australia.

Peter- I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Aliexpress at John's suggestion as I add to my inventories for engine mods. The prices are better than anything I could find on the other popular sites. The trade off is the slow boat from China....literally..........., but since you are on that side of the world, it may be faster.
I will take Sue's "advice" under advisement.

Bob

FWIW, for whatever reason, AliExpress has gotten much faster shipping lately.  I don't know what the push is, but many of my orders come in around ten days from order, that used to be unheard of! I ordered a bunch of assorted stuff from Aliexpress on the 13th, they arrived on the 21st!  That's insane shipping times from a place that used to take anywhere from three to six weeks!

I hear the China economy is slowing down, maybe they're getting more responsive lately?

Another example, I just placed an order at JLCPCB for some boards for my MTH Testset on the 21th.  Today they're in Final Inspection and should be shipping probably on Monday.   It's going to take DHL longer to get them here than it took the PCB house to make the boards!

Very good DWH (Dave)......you arrange the super caps a little differently (horizontally) to me.

I install them vertically with the + and - connections of the super caps are soldered together as a unit first. I also solder two wires (red & black) to the battery terminals inside the top section - red to + and black to -, then I install the super cap unit into the battery shell, and solder the ends of the red and black wires to the + and - contacts of the super caps, trimming the cap leads when I'm finished.

I also like to cover the top end of the super cap with Kapton tape, to make sure it doesn't short out against the underside of the terminals, inside the battery top.

Haven't thought about "gluing" the two halves of the battery case back together......hmmm, food for thought!!!

I like to wrap the battery case in red electrical tape, and then add my printed BCR sticker to it, just so there is no misunderstanding as to what it is.

And the BCR evolution continues!!!

Peter.....Buco Australia.

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