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I have the same problem with my original Polar Express. If you remember John we went into a lot of detail on the issue. The problem was the lack of real estate in the body structure. Not only that the gearing probably would have a problem handling any more torque then what is needed for a few cars at best and forget about any grade you may throw at them. I think the Hogwarts engine would be even more problematic.

It was really short sighted of Lionel to build any engine with such limited capabilities, but to sell twice the add on cars then what they could handle is just simply silly and a little sad considering how disappointed it made their loyal customers.

 What Lionel needs to do to redeem themselves in my eyes is to offer us an O-36 Polar Express engine with some guts built in, as well as a kick *** smoke unit.  Their new control system Lion Chief Plus with electro-coupler and sound will cause me to open my wallet in a heart beat.

 Then Lionel and I can be all Lovey dovey again.

   

Last edited by gg1man

I have the Polar Express with all those attributes you name, now I'm working on the Hogwart's locomotive.

The PE comes in a Series II version that's the same size, but has a full size motor.  Mine pulls eight (and probably more) cars easily.  I upgraded it to cruise, RS5, fan driven smoke, a Super-Chuffer, and LED lighting all around, including class lights, cab light, tender markers and reverse light. So, for the right price, (you don't want to know), you can have the PE with all the stuff you mention.

I simply want to do the same for my Hogwart's engine, but it hasn't been offered with the larger motor.  The internal gears are metal, and I'm sure it could do a lot better than it does with the anemic motor.  So, I'm looking for ideas on how to get some muscle into mine.

There are some small Pittman motors with rare earth magnets which would probably fit, and improve the performance of this loco.  The real challenge would be removing the worm gear from the original motor, and installing it onto the shaft of the new one.  That's one of the things I don't like about Lionel's "traditional" locos.  Some (but not all) of the RailKing steamers use a separable worm gear linked to the motor by a dogbone shaft, a better design that lends itself to upgrades.

Last edited by Ted S

I am not familiar with the setup on the Hogwarts but did replace a similar motor on a starter set 0-8-0 with an RS 385. Like Ted says the major hurdle is having to use the worm that is on the small motor. I removed it OK and then drilled it out for the larger RS385 shaft. I recall the mounting holes were the same size and location but material around the mount had to be cut back. I also had to machine some of the flywheel away to fit. That may or may not be an issue with your engine.

This ended up being one of those "30 minute jobs" that took half a day.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

John, is the worm gear you show above a press fitting? If so could  it be pulled and installed on the up grade motor with a little modification as Pete relates above?  If not removable is it offered as a separate sale item from Lionel?

I was thinking it may be possible to bore out the worm gear to accommodate the larger shaft of the new motor  you mentioned and lock onto the new shaft using a small amount of metal epoxy putty. 

Do you think that could work? 

I don't have the motor out, I'm in the "information gathering" stage now.  That's the picture from the Lionel site, I'll have to take a motor out of the locomotive to see if that's a pressed on gear or part of the motor.  I believe, just based on the picture, that it would be pressed on.  I'm going to have to measure to see what motor will fit in the space the motor currently occupies.  The good news is that for my upgrades, most of the electronics is in the tender, so space isn't an issue.  I might have to figure out something like a 90 degree gear to use a horizontal motor, or something equally tricky.   As long as I stick with the ERR Cruise Commander for control, I can dispense with the flywheel to help with vertical clearance.

I check the Lionel web site and the motor for the Polar express is the same assembly. Gear is part of the motor not offered a separate item. That tells me it has to be an epoxied part or a formed shaft. If it's a formed shaft that means it's a die-cast shaft, thus crap to work with. As for the fly wheel it looks pretty anemic anyway so I doubt if it would be much of a loss.

Considering your greater experience in the in the drive train side of the hobby I will lay back and let you do all the motor leg work. I'm very good at that! 

 

You can be assured all of the gears on the can motors are pressed on. Unlike some of the Pullmores with the worm machined into the armature shaft, the gears on the can motors are a much larger diameter than the motor bearing. The motor could not be assembled otherwise.

I use CA glue to hold the gear onto the larger motor. Its difficult to drill for a press fit as the size has to be precise and its only luck that a drill bit will be exactly the same or a half thou. smaller than the motor shaft. Tie some cotton string around the shaft next to the bearing to catch any CA that might try to creep into the bearing.

Pete

 

Yep, the end is near.  

We're getting into an area where my experience is not as great as the electronic arena, and I don't have the proper tools I suspect.  I'm hoping I could pull the gear off the set motor and get it onto a larger motor for better power. 

I suspect that I'd be using something like the Loctite 380 Retaining Compound to secure it.  It is also a gap filler that will allow a bit of tolerance for the size of the drill (I hope).

LOCTITE® 680™ Retaining Compound High Strength/High Viscosity is a high strength, high viscosity room temperature curing adhesive used to join fitted cylindrical parts. It fixtures in 10 minutes and provides a shear strength of 4,000 psi. Capable of filling diametral gaps up to 0.015 in. (0.38 mm).

LOCTITE 680 allows relaxed machining tolerances, and replaces clamp rings, set screws, and snap rings. Gives best resistance to dynamic, axial and radial loads. Recommended for retaining shafts, gears, pulleys and similar cylindrical parts. NSF/ANSI 61 Certified. ABS Approved.

This should keep the gear where it needs to be if I can get the correct sized hole in it.

The latest PE Series II has a different frame for the new motor.  The Kingslet Hall set has the same little motor as the Hogwart's.  I am wondering if I could retrofit the PE Series II motor to the Hogwarts...

Hogwarts on the left, PE Series II on the right.  The worm does look similar, just have to see if they're really the same.  Then It's time for Mr. Dremel to make it fit!

Hogwarts MotorPE Series II Motor

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Finding a motor with the same gear already mounted would be huge. One way to check if you have the height is use modeling clay. Soften up a bit and place it on top of the small motor then refit the shell. Remove the shell and measure how thick the clay is. They will give you an idea how much total height you have. I suspect you have a few RS 385s laying around to compare.

 

Pete

I want to add one more reply to this thread, in hopes that someone from Lionel or MTH reads it.  I'm sensing a lost opportunity here.  Although most of us lack the skills to build a loco from scratch, there's a subset of model railroaders who stay with it because they like tinkering, and even full-on customization.  So it's a letdown that the majority of locos are designed in a way that frustrates even folks with advanced mechanical skills.

IMO Lionel should encourage, empower, enable this kind of tinkering.  Every loco should have a modular interface for its motor, gearbox, replaceable wheels and axles, electronics, optional add-on detailing kits, etc.  Some examples might be  a high- and a low-speed worm gear; axles with or without grooves for rubber tires; Boxpok or spoked driving wheel assemblies; alternate pilots, feedwater heaters, boiler fronts, etc.  Maybe they could even release a couple of "screwdriver assembly" kits like the vaunted 700K of the 1930s.  As the prime model railroading demographic ages, larger scales really lend themselves to this type of thing.  But please, no restricted parts availability out of fear that someone will "build a Vision Line whatever out of parts" and sell it as a counterfeit.

Ideally when someone buys a starter set loco, it shouldn't quickly become obsolete or outclassed.  There should be an upgrade path, which endorses and reinforces the original purchase decision.  I believe Lionel, MTH, etc., should embrace these philosophies, for both their own continuity and the good of the hobby as a whole.  My $.02.

@Isaak570 posted:

Hi everybody, I  succeeded to change the original motor, with a mabuchi RK 270. It's necessary to add steel plate because the distance between the holes is not the same. Just a buy a worm module 0.5, and turn a big flywheel, the power is now ok.

Did you swap the worm gear?……if so, how did you do it?…your adapter plate looks very nice,…well done,..

Pat

I'm really interested in where you got that worm gear!  I have one of these that I had Frank Timko fit a larger motor to.  However, I have the one that I did all the work to upgrade it to TMCC with the Super-Chuffer, fan driven smoke, etc., and I'd love to stick a larger motor in that one as well.  The mounting plate looks very professional, you obviously have a mill of some kind to do that work.

I looked around, where exactly did you get that motor?  What is the exact part number?  I looked at a bunch of them on eBay and AliExpress, but they didn't seem to fit with the operating requirements of the locomotive.

Sorry I have made a mistake, it's not 270 mabuchi.

It's a Mabuchi RK-370CA-14445, is turns a little slower (16800rpm) than the original 19000. But more torque.

The Rs-385 would be better but diameter is too big.

For the worm, it's module 0.5 diameter 6mm. Not hard to find it.

On the polar express, it's module 0.6 diameter 6mm, very hard to find it!

Can you share the source of these?  FWIW, I already figured out it was the RD-370, but not the exact model.  I'd like to pick up the motor and the worm, I'll have to figure something to do the adapter plate, I don't have the fancy metal working that you obviously do.

I looked at that exact model, it seems a bit slow unless you're running it at a pretty high voltage.  Have you actually run this engine with the motor mounted?

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  • mceclip0

Can you share the source of these?  FWIW, I already figured out it was the RD-370, but not the exact model.  I'd like to pick up the motor and the worm, I'll have to figure something to do the adapter plate, I don't have the fancy metal working that you obviously do.

I looked at that exact model, it seems a bit slow unless you're running it at a pretty high voltage.  Have you actually run this engine with the motor mounted?

I’m guessing our new found friend is from overseas,….if he’s willing to share his motor swap plate in a drawing, I can surely duplicate it over here ……still curious how he installs the gear on the motor shaft,…..ain’t like those Mabuchis shafts are exactly strong,…..they’ll bow in a heartbeat,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I’m guessing our new found friend is from overseas,….if he’s willing to share his motor swap plate in a drawing, I can surely duplicate it over here ……still curious how he installs the gear on the motor shaft,…..ain’t like those Mabuchis shafts are exactly strong,…..they’ll bow in a heartbeat,…..

Well, it's not a steel gear, so maybe it have a bit more "give" than the steel gears we're used to seeing on these.  I ordered a couple of the gears and motors, I hope I can figure out the plate design to be able to mount them.

Hello everyone.

I have a very general question concerning the Hogwart's set.

From the discussion concerning the motor swap I gathered that this is for the "Series 1" set.    Is this true? 

Also does the set that Lionel sells today still use the same motor or has it been upgraded for better performance? 

I'm considering on purchasing a set for a youngster this Christmas for a family that isn't train or mechanically inclined.   I'm trying to avoid issues before they find their way back to me to resolve.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

@John A posted:

I agree with Isaac- that Harry Potter set will probably last several years pulling 3 or 4 cars . If you eventually have to replace the motor no big deal. I would buy it- make the boy happy!

JohnA

Allegheny, if you use the train with the 3 coaches in the set, the original motor will be OK and enough strong. No problem.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your advise as I really wanted to get this set for him.

I'll consider the motor replacement.

The issue is I just don't have that kind of free time until I put an end to all of my charitable activities as I'm still working fulltime.   

If the upgrade were a simple drop in - no problem, but it seems you need to build an appropriate shim.  Not sure if a metal one is really needed vs. a plastic one which can be made a lot simpler.

The removal of the worm gear and its replacement - isn't clear to me.  Is it pressed on and can it be removed from one motor to the next without breakage and bending issues of the motor shaft and worm gear?   

Last edited by Allegheny

The motor and worm gear are both purchased separately, you don't use anything from the original motor.  The worm is just pressed on, that could be a challenge if you don't have the proper tools.  The shim is the sticking point I suspect.

While the gear is technically an interference fit, its less than .001 smaller than the motor shaft assuming is an actual 2mm. A bit of heat and the gear should just slide on.

Good to know about those 370 Mabuchis. Likely ideal for this project not only for overall size but small shaft diameter given how small the gear is.

Pete

I have the Polar Express with all those attributes you name, now I'm working on the Hogwart's locomotive.

The PE comes in a Series II version that's the same size, but has a full size motor.  Mine pulls eight (and probably more) cars easily.  I upgraded it to cruise, RS5, fan driven smoke, a Super-Chuffer, and LED lighting all around, including class lights, cab light, tender markers and reverse light. So, for the right price, (you don't want to know), you can have the PE with all the stuff you mention.  

Well I will need to know as you are working on my Daughters P.E. loco.

Judging by your comment, I better brace for impact!

It's fun reading this thread, can't wait to see the final solution on the Hogwarts Loco. I have a P.E. set from 2007 and the Berkshire (upgraded ERR TMCC) was fine with the set of passenger cars that it came with it, but I added a few more coaches, and now I have 8 coaches plus a Candy Cane flat car. The original Berkshire that came with the set was struggling pulling the whole consist of 9 rail cars. Then I upgraded all the P.E. passenger cars to LED anti flicker lights and added 2 ounces of weight to each coach so they would ride more realistically. Well that did it, the original P.E. Berkshire would come to a crawl with any size grade, and it would slow down significantly in the turns. I was considering a motor upgrade, but the poor old Berkshire was showing it's age so I cheated. In 2019 the LionChief Plus 2.0 P.E. Berkshire was introduced, so I bought one. The LionChief Plus 2.0 pulls my full P.E. consist and everything else I put behind it and maintains speed even up hill, so far! I haven't lifted the body off of the LionChief Berkshire, haven't had the need, but if anybody wants to know what motor it has in it let me know and I'll pop the top off. I tried to look it up in the Lionel support page and they only list one part, and it's not the motor.

Scott

In 2019 the LionChief Plus 2.0 P.E. Berkshire was introduced, so I bought one. The LionChief Plus 2.0 pulls my full P.E. consist and everything else I put behind it and maintains speed even up hill, so far! I haven't lifted the body off of the LionChief Berkshire, haven't had the need, but if anybody wants to know what motor it has in it let me know and I'll pop the top off. I tried to look it up in the Lionel support page and they only list one part, and it's not the motor.

I'm virtually 100% certain that all the later set PE models have the Series II larger motor.

@Isaak570 posted:

Please note for the hole 3mm you need to drill just a little large to receive the head of countersunk screw.

It depends of the diameter of the head of your countersunk screw. For me it is 5,5mm. The head of the countersunk must not flush from the adapter plate.

Do you mean the head of the screw must be flush or below the surface of the adapter plate?

Pat, can you have a couple of these ready for me at York?

@harmonyards posted:

I’m guessing our new found friend is from overseas,….if he’s willing to share his motor swap plate in a drawing, I can surely duplicate it over here ……still curious how he installs the gear on the motor shaft,…..ain’t like those Mabuchis shafts are exactly strong,…..they’ll bow in a heartbeat,…..

Pat

You must drill the hole of the worm with a turn machine with precision exactly to the diameter of the axle of the motor.  You must have no mechanical play.

After you fix the worm on the axle with thread lock strong.

@Isaak570 posted:

Sorry my English is poor, how can I say that, the head of the screw must be to the same level of the plate

No apology necessary!  Your English is miles better than second language I'd attempt!

Like I said, I think your were basically trying to say the screw heads had to be flush or below the surface of the plate.  I just figured I'd clarify that for anyone reading along.

Thanks a heap for doing all the heavy lifting on this and providing the drawing,

@Isaak570 posted:

You must drill the hole of the worm with a turn machine with precision exactly to the diameter of the axle of the motor.  You must have no mechanical play.

After you fix the worm on the axle with thread lock strong.

With a 2mm shaft on the motor and the 1.98mm hole in the worm, I would think some heat on the worm and just pressing it onto the motor shaft would do the trick.  Why do you have to enlarge the worm hole?

An adapter plate can be made with simple tools. You can get aluminum and brass disks on the auction sites or just google aluminum disks or circular plate if you don’t have some handy to use as an adapter. I am using two different motors but the idea is the same as mounting holes are different.

These will help layout your holes. The center head is the key. Scribing a line in two directions will determine center.

66CEA60B-E26A-4A2D-8512-AF4DA1624F39

Use a center punch where the lines cross. Then use the dividers to measure the radius of the mounting holes on each motor and rotate it around center.

F07D694E-0F44-4F07-A934-B4C9A0232A84DD46C9FC-2E6A-4EF6-8D06-53A33D8572B4

Use the center punch at the crossing points of the circles. In this case I used the two lines at 90 degrees to each other but they can be at any angle as long as the holes are far enough apart to accommodate the screw heads.

Drill the holes and use a countersink bit for the flathead screws.



01FB1932-755C-4B04-A3D6-1A1D68F97A34

I used a lead weight from a brass engine as it was handy.



Pete

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@Norton posted:

An adapter plate can be made with simple tools. You can get aluminum and brass disks on the auction sites or just google aluminum disks or circular plate if you don’t have some handy to use as an adapter. I am using two different motors but the idea is the same as mounting holes are different.

These will help layout your holes. The center head is the key. Scribing a line in two directions will determine center.

66CEA60B-E26A-4A2D-8512-AF4DA1624F39

Use a center punch where the lines cross. Then use the dividers to measure the radius of the mounting holes on each motor and rotate it around center.

F07D694E-0F44-4F07-A934-B4C9A0232A84DD46C9FC-2E6A-4EF6-8D06-53A33D8572B4

Use the center punch at the crossing points of the circles. In this case I used the two lines at 90 degrees to each other but they can be at any angle as long as the holes are far enough apart to accommodate the screw heads.

Drill the holes and use a countersink bit for the flathead screws.



01FB1932-755C-4B04-A3D6-1A1D68F97A34

I used a lead weight from a brass engine as it was handy.



Pete

Yeah!  Exactly what I have used! For the plate, the thickness is 2mm and I used my turn machine to cut and dress the plate.

Have you looked on the website for Northwest Short Line for the flywheels John?  They are the "go to" place in the smaller scales for all things motors, gears and flywheels.  A secondary place to look is A Line/Proto Power West.  Both deal mostly with HO scale but that where you might find a flywheel in that size with that shaft size.    The PE Berk issues that were mentioned in the beginning, prior to the version 2 coming out.  Many local folks just went and bought a postwar 726/736 and used it to pull the train, no more power issues then!  Thats what would make me open my wallet, a postwar Berk drive with a nice PE style diecast shell on it, along with all the current goodies.  With all the add on cars, thats the durability Lionel needs to strive for.  AD

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