Repowering Kline’s scale Hudsons K3270

I love the idea.  And I totally agree about the difficulty of swapping the worm- if someone develops a manageable way to do this I would like to hear more.  This would open the door to a lot of swaps where the worm gear is pressed on the motor shaft (a pet peeve of mine!)

Ted, the plan is to bore the existing worm. Obviously the Pittman shaft will be much larger than that toothpick 385. I’ll make the existing worm a snug, slip fit, then counter bore for a set screw. There’s plenty of blind area on the worm to do this. This will make servicing everything a whole lot easier.........Pat

As Pat stated I did begin to try doing a motor swap in my K-Line Hudson. I have used Swiss made Maxon motors in my HO engines many years ago. They are high quality and have high torque compared to other motors of the same size.

Maxon now makes about 6 grades of motors and I believe the least expensive of those are now Asian made. I found some on eBay about the same size as the Mabuchi 385s for about for only slightly more than the Mabuchi. It wasn't until I received them and was able to check the specs that I discovered their torque rating is also the same as the Mabuchi. At that point I set the Maxon aside and will continue looking for better alternatives like Pat's Pittmans.

One thing about the gears used by everyone on their Mabuchi motors is there is enough metal to drill and tap for a set screw. 

That will allow drilling for a sliding fit and eliminate the possibilty of damaging a motor by pressing it on.

BTW Maxons high line use ball bearings and rare earth magnets and while they make a lot of power they come with a price well in excess of 200 bucks for a Mabuchi 385 size motor.

Edit, I see Pat is already aware of the set screw option.

Pete

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

bob2 posted:

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

 

Bob, how much heat does it take? I’ve tried the heat treatment on several Mubachi’s with the worm gear on the shaft, seems like I still had to use a puller...but I’ll try your trick, I have some dead motors from MTH and Lionel ...unfortunately I don’t have any Kline’s....so I have no idea what kind of fight I’m up against....looks like I might be testing the strength of the Great Planes pinion puller....🤤.........Pat

bob2 posted:

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

 

Did you build a completely new chassis or modify the K-Line chassis to put the motor in the boiler?

I tried heat on the K-Line gear. I used my resistence soldering tweezers and got the gear red hot and it did not just pull off. I ended up having to cut the shaft and driving the shaft out of the gear. That was before I got my Great Planes puller.

This will be a good test of that tool.

Pete

Definitely following this thread.  I bought the Great Planes puller, but there was some discussion that the pin that comes with it isn't small enough for use with a '385.  I have one K-Line loco that's begging for a motor swap.  If someone finds a way to transfer the worm gear, it's a done deal!

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Ted S posted:

Definitely following this thread.  I bought the Great Planes puller, but there was some discussion that the pin that comes with it isn't small enough for use with a '385.  I have one K-Line loco that's begging for a motor swap.  If someone finds a way to transfer the worm gear, it's a done deal!

The Great Planes puller has a small enough pin to do a Mubachi, it’s the length of some worm gears that’s the problem....not a huge deal to overcome......Pat

josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

I remember my K-Line USRA Mikado having a really steep gear ratio, something like 12:1. Is the Husdon like that? I also found the 83XX Pitmans to be a bit 'coggy' at low speed with ERRCo Cruise for some reason, despite them being a 7 pole motor. I've seen those Hudsons go for cheap money but always avoided them since I wanted to pull a full train of GGD coaches that have lived under my layout for years now. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I remember my K-Line USRA Mikado having a really steep gear ratio, something like 12:1. Is the Husdon like that? I also found the 83XX Pitmans to be a bit 'coggy' at low speed with ERRCo Cruise for some reason, despite them being a 7 pole motor. I've seen those Hudsons go for cheap money but always avoided them since I wanted to pull a full train of GGD coaches that have lived under my layout for years now. 

I’m sure Ted S. can tell us the gear ratio of these pups....as I have no clue off the top of my head....anything has got to be better than the whimpy 385 motor that resides in there now....8300 series & 8400 series Pittmans share the same can....If the 8300’s tend to be coggy, I’ll jump up .....everything I got here to try out are Pittman LO-COG’s ...so I reckon we’ll put their advertisement to the test....😉.............Pat

harmonyards posted:

josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

I could be wrong, but isn't the motor shaft made of harder steel than the gear itself? That will make the boring process... less boring.

RoyBoy posted:

harmonyards posted:

josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

I could be wrong, but isn't the motor shaft made of harder steel than the gear itself? That will make the boring process... less boring.

I’m sure I can bore through it with ease Roy, I’m more on a quest to gather spares to perfect the process....I haven’t begun the actual swap just yet....got a few jobs in front of this one....(including yours buddy) 

I’m sure there’s some dead motors, or leftover motors somebody has from cruise swaps laying around....I’m just after a couple more worm gears ...if this was a Lionel, or a MTH, I have spare parts galore.....these Kline’s are just so funky built, I have nothing in my arsenal to keep the job afloat......Pat

harmonyards posted:

I’m sure there’s some dead motors, or leftover motors somebody has from cruise swaps laying around....I’m just after a couple more worm gears ...if this was a Lionel, or a MTH, I have spare parts galore.....these Kline’s are just so funky built, I have nothing in my arsenal to keep the job afloat......Pat

Just make a gear to match the K-Line gear. Easy .

A thought: is it possible to replace the K-Line axle gear with a different gear and machine the chassis to accept the motor mounted in the smokebox? Probably a bigger pain but it would possibly allow the use of the 9434 or 9433 Pittman......

Lou, if I’m going to go through all of that trouble, I’ll just sit the shell down on a MTH chassis!..☺️.....but at some point, that well will run dry....

I wish I knew the thought process that went through their minds when they decided on this chassis....it makes no sense at all.....I’d have to go out on a limb and guess there was a baby bird in the room singing “cheap, cheap, cheap” .........Pat

On second thought, imagine if they did put that 385 where it belonged. THEN folks would have gasped for sure!...that’d be like opening the hood of a Cadillac and finding a 2 cylinder Wisconsin......yikes!.......Pat

harmonyards posted:

Lou, if I’m going to go through all of that trouble, I’ll just sit the shell down on a MTH chassis!..☺️.....but at some point, that well will run dry....

I wish I knew the thought process that went through their minds when they decided on this chassis....it makes no sense at all.....I’d have to go out on a limb and guess there was a baby bird in the room singing “cheap, cheap, cheap” .........Pat

I was thinking out loud for people who don't have access to a pile of parts and want a decent running locomotive. When parts run out you have to modify what you have . I'd have to say that it must have been cheaper to mount the motor this way for some reason. After all these Hudsons were around $500 brand new from K-Line. The whole motor/driveline configuration is a result of trying to hit that $500 price point. 

Is there actually enough room to cut up the chassis to mount the motor in the firebox, if one really wanted to?