So I'm aware of the #643 in that park in Pennsylvania, but is that the only steam engine from the pennsy to operate now? I know there's a Pennsy built LIRR G5 being moved to strasburg, a K4 sitting in Altoona, and a T1 getting built from the ground up, but all groups funding or doing these restorations haven't made any comments nor updates publicly recently.

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bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives and to keep there historicaly cosmetic look of turn of the century Locomtives, the muesum doesn't want to put on modern machinery that's required by the FRA for steam operation. 

RDGCO.Productions posted:

but all groups funding or doing these restorations haven't made any comments nor updates publicly recently.

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives

There was the recent presentation by the 1361 folks outlining plans for it, and just last week the T1 Trust announced placing the order for the third boiler course. The folks out of Altoona tend to keep tight lips because of obvious reasons, but the T1 Trust practically sings like a song bird with news coming to light almost every other month or so.

Those locomotives always belonged to the museum; they were just being leased to Strasburg RR

The PRR b6sb is sitting on a side branch visible from a road which I can’t remember, on the way down to The Wilmington Shops from our house. Sadly she is not operational or will ever be as there are dozens of stolen or missing parts off of her. 1361 ,as stated earlier, is planned to be restored by Bennett Levin and Wick Moormen by private funding. I have pictures of the B6 somewhere and I believe it is number 38(?)

Modeling Enola PA in miniature

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“It’s a good thing to let another generation know what a steam locomotive is.” — Southern Railway Vice President-Law W. Graham Claytor Jr.

bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Unfortunately, both of these engines are done. Boiler thicknesses too thin. No plans that I'm aware of to bring either of these back to life.

 

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

Hot Water posted:
joe krasko posted:

HOTWATER....do you always have to be so blunt?????

Yes!!!!!!!   What seems to be your problem?

so be it...life is too short to deal with people like you...all the best ...joe

KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON...W.S.CHURCHILL

 

Joe Krasko LCCA 17199

Steamer posted:

Joe...click on the ignore member button...it helps a lot with all is negitivaty

Unfortunately, doing so means you will not benefit from his knowledge, but maybe that's OK if all you want is rainbows and unicorns.

You guys need to man-up.

Steve

 

RDGCO.Productions posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives and to keep there historicaly cosmetic look of turn of the century Locomtives, the muesum doesn't want to put on modern machinery that's required by the FRA for steam operation. 

Why sadly? I think it is wonderful that these machines will be on display for a long, long time in beautiful condition.  Some locomotives are meant to be restored to operation while others should be displayed.  The museum does a wonderful job of preserving these two iconic locomotives in pristine condition.

Jonathan

 

I agree Jonathan.  The cost of operating any vintage locomotive is high, let alone the restoration cost and any upgrades that may have to be made to satisfy present day safety and environmental rules.  I've been to the Pennsylvania RR museum several times.  I wish they had more locos under roof.  Obviously, more structure would have to be built to do so and that alone is costly.  

The museum did a very nice job on the building they have.  The only inexpensive way to create more "garage" space would be Butler buildings.  Not the most attractive but they do the job.  

We built this one in Qua-Viet for the Marines to service their Amtracs.  It's actually a Pasco building, another brand of the same type building as a Butler building.  

Marine Amtracks at Qua-VietNearly completed Pasco building at Qua-Viet

Dan Padova

 

"In the course of my life I have had to eat my words, and I must confess it was a wholesome diet"..........Winston Churchill

                                                                                                                                        

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I'm not sure of the current status, but the roundhouse is scheduled to be built at the PRR Museum in the not too distant future over the existing turntable.  It should house nearly all the collection indoors at that point.  There are people on here who are a lot more familiar with the status of the project than I am though.

Jonathan

 

RDGCO.Productions posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives and to keep there historicaly cosmetic look of turn of the century Locomtives, the muesum doesn't want to put on modern machinery that's required by the FRA for steam operation. 

Why not restore the K4, M1, L1, H10, etc. to operation then?! They are sitting outside rotting. They aren’t “turn of the century” locomotives either. If it was a choice and the funds were available or obtainable, why not do it? I would donate to a Loco being pulled across the street for a restoration instead of letting it sit outside for the next 10-20 years waiting for its chance inside the little back shop. 460 took what, 6-7 years? That was in much better condition than the others. I expect 10-20 for all 5 to be done... 

Modeling Enola PA in miniature

——————————————————

https://www.instagram.com/ns6770fan_productions/

“It’s a good thing to let another generation know what a steam locomotive is.” — Southern Railway Vice President-Law W. Graham Claytor Jr.

NS6770Fan posted:
RDGCO.Productions posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives and to keep there historicaly cosmetic look of turn of the century Locomtives, the muesum doesn't want to put on modern machinery that's required by the FRA for steam operation. 

Why not restore the K4, M1, L1, H10, etc. to operation then?! They are sitting outside rotting. They aren’t “turn of the century” locomotives either. If it was a choice and the funds were available or obtainable, why not do it? I would donate to a Loco being pulled across the street for a restoration instead of letting it sit outside for the next 10-20 years waiting for its chance inside the little back shop. 460 took what, 6-7 years? That was in much better condition than the others. I expect 10-20 for all 5 to be done... 

I would expect operational locomotives are not part of the RRMofPa's mission statement.

Rusty

GG1 4877 posted:

I'm not sure of the current status, but the roundhouse is scheduled to be built at the PRR Museum in the not too distant future over the existing turntable.  It should house nearly all the collection indoors at that point.  There are people on here who are a lot more familiar with the status of the project than I am though.

The last drawing of the proposed roundhouse I think was posted at the PRR Museum showed only 6 locomotives inside if I remember correctly they were all going to be steam. The drawing depicted the best location arrangement to get the most inside. It was not going to be over the TT according to the drawing I saw, but that was a few years ago also. Things change.

Rick

PRRT&HS #8473

N&W HS  #5825

State College, PA

"And the sons of Pullman Porters, and the sons of Engineers

   Ride their father's magic carpet made of steel"

    "This train got the disappearing railroad blues"

 

NS6770Fan posted:
RDGCO.Productions posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

Sadly the railroad muesum of Pennsylvania took overship of those beautiful locomotives and to keep there historicaly cosmetic look of turn of the century Locomtives, the muesum doesn't want to put on modern machinery that's required by the FRA for steam operation. 

Why not restore the K4, M1, L1, H10, etc. to operation then?!

Operate them where and hauling what?

They are sitting outside rotting. They aren’t “turn of the century” locomotives either. If it was a choice and the funds were available or obtainable, why not do it?

Seems that you answered your own question, i.e. FUNDS!!!!

I would donate to a Loco being pulled across the street for a restoration instead of letting it sit outside for the next 10-20 years waiting for its chance inside the little back shop.

Just how much would you be willing to donate? About $100,000, or maybe $500,000, or how about $1,000,000?

460 took what, 6-7 years?

All takes is money, and LOTS of it.

That was in much better condition than the others. I expect 10-20 for all 5 to be done... 

It is a State Museum, just how much of public tax dollars do you think should be allocated to such projects?

 

If any were restored to operating condition, I’m sure the Strasburg RR would gladly run them like they did with 1223 and 7002.  I’d think either the G5 or possibly the L1 would be of some interest to them- not “too big” for their railroad, but big enough to handle their peak season trains.

If one were looking for a “mainline” engine, the M is the only way to go.  Able to haul a decent sized excursion consist at track speed over a distance.

All that is, of course, pure fantasy for many reasons.  I’m just glad they’re not razor blades, that what is restored is restored, and that there’s a plan to restore the rest.  Let’s be happy with what we’ve got.

-Mike

I have limited knowledge of this.  However, have the impression that most PRR steam locomotives were built with a boiler shell that is too thin to meet modern FRA standards.  So, that means fabricating a new boiler.  Then, how much of the original fabric is left?  Possibly only its "soul".  And of course, the cost of new boiler is huge.  So, it's understandable that a museum might want to keep their exhibits as original a possible, for historical purposes.  But the tradeoff is they don't run.

Tony Marchiando

tonymarchiando posted:

I have limited knowledge of this.  However, have the impression that most PRR steam locomotives were built with a boiler shell that is too thin to meet modern FRA standards.

No. Only the the earlier PRR steam locomotives like the K4s and G5s have that issue, assuming you are referring to the locomotives in the museum at Strasburg.

 So, that means fabricating a new boiler.

No, the real problem is in the firebox area.

 Then, how much of the original fabric is left?  Possibly only its "soul".  And of course, the cost of new boiler is huge.

That depends on which company yo have make your "new boiler".

 So, it's understandable that a museum might want to keep their exhibits as original a possible, for historical purposes.  But the tradeoff is they don't run.

The Pennsylvania State Museum at Strasburg has NEVER had any intention of returning ANY of their locomotives to operation. Their focus is to cosmetically restoration them to what they originally looked like. Even THAT is a huge task!

Tony Marchiando

 

Simon Winter posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

The E7 is an EMD diesel, and the last time I checked, they did NOT have boilers.

Simon

Simon,

The Pennsy had 4-4-2 Atlantics in the E7s class.

PRR Light 4-4-2's

Stuart

 

The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an on coming train!

Simon Winter posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

The E7 is an EMD diesel, and the last time I checked, they did NOT have boilers.

Simon

Oh, yes they did...  A boiler for the steam heating system used on passenger trains before the age of HEP.

Rusty

Nick, "please pass the popcorn!" ROFL. Having said that, I've appreciated the above exchange in a humorous light. I've learned that PRR 4-4-2s were in the E7 class. I was reminded that EMD E7s, some had boilers for steam heated passenger cars. Thank you to all who have contributed something worthwhile to this thread.

Dan Weinhold

As others have pointed out, the answer is money when it comes to these projects. When I was at the Pennsylvania Rail Museum years ago I asked an employee there if they had any plans in the future to do any kind of excursions with the engines they had on display as an offshoot of what the museum does, and from what I recall of the conversation there had been discussions about that over the years, but that the cost of doing it would make any gains for the museum in terms of attendance impractical. So basically it is as others have said, that the Penn rail museum will likely always be static display only. 

I suspect operating engines are going to be limited to tourist railroads and the UP as long as that lasts, with maybe some other private projects like the T1 project continuing to restore some engines as well. The local rail museum near where I live has a steam engine on display, but even with the enthusiasm the people running it have, they as far as I know aren't going to try and restore it to operating capability for the excursions  they run during the  year (currently using one of the Alco units owned by the local shortline whose tracks they are located on), the engine was used to run excursions back in the 70's and early 80's but it likely would be just too expensive to bring it back to operation to current standards and then maintain it in operation (the restoration is expensive, but maintaining a steam engine also is pretty expensive from what I know as well). 

 

 

 

 

The person who dies with the best toys dies a happy person

Simon Winter posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

The E7 is an EMD diesel, and the last time I checked, they did NOT have boilers.

Simon

You must not know the Pennsy “lingo” well. The E DIESELS all had an “RFxx” model number on the Pennsy. The E7’s are RF20’s. Usually when someone refers to say a Pennsy E7, the are referring to the 4-4-2 Atlantic’s. Same with the E6 and such. What were the F units classed as? Also the “RFxx” tags?

Modeling Enola PA in miniature

——————————————————

https://www.instagram.com/ns6770fan_productions/

“It’s a good thing to let another generation know what a steam locomotive is.” — Southern Railway Vice President-Law W. Graham Claytor Jr.

NS6770Fan posted:
Simon Winter posted:
bob2 posted:

Aren't the Strasburg D16 and E7 sort of close?  They ran for years, so one might guess they could run again with boiler cert?

The E7 is an EMD diesel, and the last time I checked, they did NOT have boilers.

Simon

You must not know the Pennsy “lingo” well. The E DIESELS all had an “RFxx” model number on the Pennsy. The E7’s are RF20’s. Usually when someone refers to say a Pennsy E7, the are referring to the 4-4-2 Atlantic’s. Same with the E6 and such. What were the F units classed as? Also the “RFxx” tags?

Actually no. An E7 diesel was an EP20 on the PRR- EMD Passenger 2000 HP.  F units would have been EF-xx.  

-Mike

Big Jim posted:

Want them restored? Send them over to England, they know how to restore steam locomotives over there!

Oh?

They know how to do it in England without money?

You sure are giving the folks over here who use their brains, muscle and sweat to do restorations (most are volunteers) the short end of the stick...

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:
Big Jim posted:

Want them restored? Send them over to England, they know how to restore steam locomotives over there!

Oh?

They know how to do it in England without money?

You sure are giving the folks over here who use their brains, muscle and sweat to do restorations (most are volunteers) the short end of the stick...

Rusty

Very good points, Rusty. I'd like to see the English restore a UP 4000 class, or an N&W J Class, or and N&W A Class, or an SP GS-4, or a Milwaukee S Class 4-8-4, or an NKP 700 class 2-8-4, or a UP 3900 Class, or a Santa Fe 3751 Class, or an SP&S 4-8-4, or a few Reading T-1 Class 4-8-4s, to name just a few. This beautiful English steam locomotives don't even have stokers.

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