Restoring Prewar Lionels: Most Typical Replacement Parts and Costs

I had a friend that bought old beater sets a few months before Christmas and would rebuild them, add new track and refinish the transformer. He sold them at Christmas mainly to non train people that wanted an old train around the Christmas tree. He did very well doing it and enjoyed rebuilding the old sets. He placed adds in those give away papers to sell them. Don

The wheels are probably the most expensive thing other then a motor armature problem.  We do sell our wheels @ 30% off the $40.00 price of standard gauge, and 30% off our $36.00 price on "O" gauge. Best thing is you can mix & match Lionel,  A. Flyer or Ives to get the discount. That price is for 6 sets total + shipping. 

On another note, we just found the tooling  and punched out A. Flyer standard gauge freight & passenger car wheels.  They are nickel plated and sell for $ 3.00 each.   They fit the Lionel 500 series car axles, which are also in stock now.   Harry 

The prices that you gave are close. I usually look at $15.00 for the pick up and do not forget about the reversing switch (if it came with one) couplers (to replace the rusted ones) rivets, screws, brushes etc.
I usually buy at the $40.00/$50.00 mark. 
I do not think of this as a money maker and I m not doing it to make money, if so I would be making $0.25 per hour,
Just the enjoyment, research, hunt for parts is what I like.

What I love is just bringing a piece back to life and thinking that some kid may of got this as a Christmas/Birthday present 70 to 80 years ago
I do not use the word restore on my worked on project as I make them the way I like.

Below is a sample of my work.

 I am just interested in making my money back, and perhaps a bit more, in order to sustain the hobby.

That used to be easy to do.
Not so much any more.

People think their junkers are gold.
Parts are expensive.
And the market is very soft.

How many of those restored $60 junkers have you been able to sell for $200? 

C W Burfle posted:

 I am just interested in making my money back, and perhaps a bit more, in order to sustain the hobby.

That used to be easy to do.
Not so much any more.

People think their junkers are gold.
Parts are expensive.
And the market is very soft.

How many of those restored $60 junkers have you been able to sell for $200? 

I do not sell them, just want to run them and have fun.

Maybe you should try another hobby. Sounds like this one is getting stressful.

I hear that model cars are pretty cool.

Interesting, back in the early  1970's, a restored piece would go for pretty good money. Not as much as an excellent original, but close. There were no MTH or Williams repros (yet), but it was worth your while to pick up junkers cheap and restore.

Today there is a wider chasm between excellent originals and the 'good' stuff. Restorations price about like a 'good' train, which typically is lower than the cost of the junker and the parts.

For me, (and many others on this list), I'm taking the junk and building something different from what was in the 1930's catalogs. I bought 2 very nice #8's at a show for $85 each - already had new wheels and ran wonderfully. Almost too nice, but I bought them to use the motors!

When Williams brought out the repro 381 and 408E, many many 8's and 10's lost their motors to power these kits (we would buy them back then for $10 each). The early Williams kits only had 'dummy' frames, but included a set of wheels. You'll still see some of those shells hitting ebay today.

So yes, gonna be hard to restore something for what you could pick up at a meet with just a little bargaining.

Jim

C W Burfle posted:

 I am just interested in making my money back, and perhaps a bit more, in order to sustain the hobby.

That used to be easy to do.
Not so much any more.

People think their junkers are gold.
Parts are expensive.
And the market is very soft.

How many of those restored $60 junkers have you been able to sell for $200? 

Especially when you can buy this for far less than $200...

As well as this...

Both completely original, original cabs all trim, siderods etc. (yes the siderods came with the red comet).  Good wheels on the grey 265E and I stole two wheels off another junker motor I got for $10 off our favorite auction site.  Paid less than $200 for the Red Comet set and less than $100 for the Gunmetal 265E.  My aim is not to suggest any specific value for these two engine's but simply to suggest that you can find and buy very good original pieces for less than the $ figure the OP used for analysis.  That being the case, why would I spend $200 for a "restored" 249E or even a 264E red comet?  It doesn't make sense.  I may be in the minority, who know's, but it works for me and I do restore other trains so I am aware of what the parts cost and it ain't cheap either.  That said, you have to recognize the $$ outlay that people like Harry have to invest in order to provide those high quality parts ( And they are very high quality).

Don't take this the wrong way, and I may look at things differently than others, but it sounds like you would pay $60 + for something I would pay $20 for, it also sounds like you do not or are not willing to scout for original parts (other junkers) on line or at shows. I also have a keen eye to spot and purchase correct original parts the same way.  It is not that hard to do.  This is only my opinion, but I would suggest that expecting to do a complete restoration on an engine and sell it for only $200, your reference again, is unreasonable and was so from the start.  I have seen over time at least one person sell successfully completely restored sets, both in original colors and some custom colors, in the range of $500 to $800.  These were anything for 259E's to 262E's etc with 3-4  of the smaller 2650 series freight cars or 603/4 series passenger cars.  A quick look at his history showed he had quite a few sales but it was also clear that it took time and he relisted many times to get those sales.  Point is, as has been stated above, that the market is small and it is not easy to do especially with the aim of making a continuous stream of money. 

Again this is only my opinion and not meant to offend.

I paid $32 for this pile a couple weeks ago at at show.

a Lionel Postwar 2025, and a 2035.

In less than 30 minutes I had the 2025 together and running.

The trailing truck is missing, needs a new wire for the headlight, and I have to check the smoke unit (there were three in  the box) The 2035 motor runs, but it has several missing parts to become a running locomotive. I have more than enough trains that are ready to run, so I like rebuilding junkers, or customizing. Old trains are like restoring old cars, keep track of every penny and you'll be not having much fun. Yes you do need to spend wisely, but the hunt for deals is half the fun. I'm sure I could buy a complete train for as much if not cheaper, but a little at a time and you don't notice it, plus I've made some great friends here this way.

RonH posted:

C W Burfle posted:

 I am just interested in making my money back, and perhaps a bit more, in order to sustain the hobby.

That used to be easy to do.
Not so much any more.

People think their junkers are gold.
Parts are expensive.
And the market is very soft.

How many of those restored $60 junkers have you been able to sell for $200? 

I do not sell them, just want to run them and have fun.

 

Don't  take my comment the wrong way. I still enjoy fixing up junkers and repairing trains in general. I just don't do it for resale.

I've found it's cheaper to buy 2 clunkers and combine them into one good loco...vs - fixing one clunker, and buying parts one at a time.

When you combine - you always end up with extra parts for the next project.

If your paying $60 for a beater, it better be a high end item like a 256 or a 226E etc. Buying 253 electrics for $60 in dire need of restoration is shooting yourself in the foot. Buy it as parts at a parts price. While your considering your purchase, you should be able to calculate in your head what parts it needs and approximate how much they will cost or if you have them in your parts bins. I do flea markets all the time looking for projects to fix up and sell. I also grab any and all parts I can get for cheap, junkers too. Over the years I have amassed boxes and boxes of parts. Of the common parts, always try to buy bulk to get the discount. Some dealers like Henry and Jeff Kane offer bulk pricing. Buy brushes in bulk, buy, bulbs in bulk, buy wheels in bulk, buy wire in bulk, buy E-Unit drums in bulk. Do this when ever you can. Buy the unassembled pick up assemblies and assemble them yourself. Save the original Manufacturers plate from the broken piece and assemble the new one with the original plate. I used to buy my standard gauge wheels in bulk off of MTH at the York Train Show. I knew a friend who had a MTH service agreement. I would tell him to pick up 4 sets of electric wheels, 2 sets of early steam wheels and 2 sets of later steam wheels. That's 32 wheels in total. Price, $8 each. Common trim pieces you can also buy in bulk. Cast Headlights, Handrail Stantions, Fixed Voltage Plugs for O22 switches. I do not consider my time as I enjoy doing the work, and bringing back a neglected old train. I have picked up items such as a complete 622 Bell Ringing switcher set. Filthy and rusted track. Cleaned up like new and the only parts needed were the radio antenna and brushes and a set of fingers for the E-Unit. Picked up a set of Lionel F3 Santa Fe diesels. Dirty and not running. Cleaned and lubed, replaced the missing dummy couplers, and windshield, and she was good as new. I pick up various cars all the time. Nice box cars and some operating cars sell well after a good cleaning. Accessories, AF Pre War Mystic Talking Station, Switch Tower, and signals. Just needed a good bath and rewirinig. An AF Pre War O Northern with the remnants of a tender. Loco needed only Lead and Trail wheels and a boiler front. Tender was a bigger project, but the whole loco is back together and that one went in my collection. Picked up a box full of O22 switches. At least 4 pair in there. I'm currently refurbishing them. I'm also working on a Lionel Standard #33 electric loco. I picked it up for $20. It had a missing field and armature in the motor, but the body was straight with almost all of the original paint flaking off revealing bright shiny tin metal. I've managed to get the field, and brush tubes, but am still looking for an armature. So some projects will stump you for a while. Put them in a box and stash them away and keep an eye open for what you need. At worse, I break even, but most of the time a can make a few dollars. Also, what you are doing is a refurbish, not a restoration.

Tin

LionelTin posted:

If your paying $60 for a beater, it better be a high end item like a 256 or a 226E etc. Buying 253 electrics for $60 in dire need of restoration is shooting yourself in the foot. Buy it as parts at a parts price. While your considering your purchase, you should be able to calculate in your head what parts it needs and approximate how much they will cost or if you have them in your parts bins. I do flea markets all the time looking for projects to fix up and sell. I also grab any and all parts I can get for cheap, junkers too. Over the years I have amassed boxes and boxes of parts. Of the common parts, always try to buy bulk to get the discount. Some dealers like Henry and Jeff Kane offer bulk pricing. Buy brushes in bulk, buy, bulbs in bulk, buy wheels in bulk, buy wire in bulk, buy E-Unit drums in bulk. Do this when ever you can. Buy the unassembled pick up assemblies and assemble them yourself. Save the original Manufacturers plate from the broken piece and assemble the new one with the original plate. I used to buy my standard gauge wheels in bulk off of MTH at the York Train Show. I knew a friend who had a MTH service agreement. I would tell him to pick up 4 sets of electric wheels, 2 sets of early steam wheels and 2 sets of later steam wheels. That's 32 wheels in total. Price, $8 each. Common trim pieces you can also buy in bulk. Cast Headlights, Handrail Stantions, Fixed Voltage Plugs for O22 switches. I do not consider my time as I enjoy doing the work, and bringing back a neglected old train. I have picked up items such as a complete 622 Bell Ringing switcher set. Filthy and rusted track. Cleaned up like new and the only parts needed were the radio antenna and brushes and a set of fingers for the E-Unit. Picked up a set of Lionel F3 Santa Fe diesels. Dirty and not running. Cleaned and lubed, replaced the missing dummy couplers, and windshield, and she was good as new. I pick up various cars all the time. Nice box cars and some operating cars sell well after a good cleaning. Accessories, AF Pre War Mystic Talking Station, Switch Tower, and signals. Just needed a good bath and rewirinig. An AF Pre War O Northern with the remnants of a tender. Loco needed only Lead and Trail wheels and a boiler front. Tender was a bigger project, but the whole loco is back together and that one went in my collection. Picked up a box full of O22 switches. At least 4 pair in there. I'm currently refurbishing them. I'm also working on a Lionel Standard #33 electric loco. I picked it up for $20. It had a missing field and armature in the motor, but the body was straight with almost all of the original paint flaking off revealing bright shiny tin metal. I've managed to get the field, and brush tubes, but am still looking for an armature. So some projects will stump you for a while. Put them in a box and stash them away and keep an eye open for what you need. At worse, I break even, but most of the time a can make a few dollars.

Tin

Great information/logic.
I too buy old stuff/beaters and make engines of old parts. Collecting the badges on a old pickup is a nice idea that I did not think of as I always use the old badge on a new pickup kit.
This is a #8 loco that I did in parts shell/frame engine /parts and painted it the way I wanted to.

You need to heed the advice of those printed here, with their methods of doing restorations.  Each of them have varying experience, and some with many years, in the hobby.  Your expectation of trying to make a profit, using newer reproduction parts, negates any sense of doing so.  As others above have posted, they buy complete junk lots, or other junk locos to make one good running loco.  The only time I find it necessary to have to buy New repro parts, is when that item can’t be found through other sources, and the only options are going the route of New. 

Some dealers like Henry and Jeff Kane offer bulk pricing. Buy brushes in bulk, buy, bulbs in bulk, buy wheels in bulk, buy wire in bulk, buy E-Unit drums in bulk. Do this when ever you can.

I am familiar with Jeff Kane (Train Tender). I am not familar with Henry. Does he have a web site?

I like to buy common parts in bulk too.

henningstrains.com

Many people have mentioned the benefits of buying trains and parts at meets. Those are the regional TCA meets? That's only about once per year (at least down here in Houston), right? The last one being Jan 6 in my area. Or are there others I should consider going to?

just local shows for me

Just picked up a fascinating Lionel "neverwazz".   Someone took a 238E shell and managed to attach a 224E 6 coupled mechanism. I think he kept the original 4 wheel pony truck, but then installed his own trailing truck.  Result is a beautiful 1937 Lionel K-4 Pacific.  Of course MTH has issued something similar, but it's kind of fun to have the original prewar motor and shell. Why didn't Lionel think of this way back then.   Lew Schneider

CountOrlock posted:

Many people have mentioned the benefits of buying trains and parts at meets. Those are the regional TCA meets? That's only about once per year (at least down here in Houston), right? The last one being Jan 6 in my area. Or are there others I should consider going to?

Go to every show that is available to you and within driving range. No TCA shows in my area, only local shows. The number of shows has been shrinking. The promoters of the ones that are left do a good job.

pretty easy actually......

Depends on the area and the strength of the hobby. Western Pa. has a couple of TCA shows and locals. All good. Here in Raleigh there were two relatively small ones but I did mange to spend my money on a Standard gauge loco that I have wanted so it was a good show. I don't waste my money on cable TV, trains are better.

I bought this on eBay around 2 years ago and needed Harry Hennings shop to help with the motor and e-unit. Harry and his folks did an amazing job. 

I worked on the outside with my friend, Bill.

Here is the thread: 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...team-switcher?page=1

Tom 

CountOrlock posted:

Many people have mentioned the benefits of buying trains and parts at meets. Those are the regional TCA meets? That's only about once per year (at least down here in Houston), right? The last one being Jan 6 in my area. Or are there others I should consider going to?

In my case it is pretty much strictly on line from ebay.  That said, if I were to drive up to Chicago, there is a meet every month at Dupage County Fairgrounds and it's pretty decent.

Mine only needed a few parts:

• New drivers
• New idler wheels (supplied by my donor loco)
• New smokebox assembly
• New pilot/steps
• New handrail stanchions
• New handrails
• Replaced front coupler
• Repaired motor
• Repaired e-unit
• New number plate
• Replaced wiring
• New marker lights (some day I will install them)
• Probably more I am forgetting

So, was it worth it? Yes, but hoping to not find any new basket cases soon. To know that this is around 79 years old and that it could easily go another 79 years says something about craftsmanship in the USA at that time. 

Tom 

Yes, the quality and workmanship of Lionel trains in the prewar period was excellent. But Lionel products were expensive then. A train set costing $30 in 1930 (in the early Depression) is equivalent to $442 today. And labor was cheap, so it was possible to have more of it: the average worker in 1938 (in the munitions industry, which probably would have been fairly similar to a Lionel plant) was $8.85 per hour.

and beside the dollar amount....bringing one of these basketcase trains, that especially in our throw away world, back to life because of your own two hands, and advice from forum members, is worth every minute. 

Wow! One good question and look at the results! Some of the best reading I've seen in awhile. When I did my first resto. every penny including manhours was recorded and when the dust settled it was a no brainer. Ya ain't gonna make $ - ya gotta do it for love of the hobby. If you manage to sell items along the way, it's a plus but shouldn't be the driving force of why you are doing it. Have a great day!

One reason I am moving, so I can have my own place and work on trains if I want.  I enjoy them, the TV is off(Not hooked up) no woman to nag me so it will be good.

and all three smoke units work!

I read a few comments after reading your opening statement and then jumped to the end here so most I do not know what they said but bet it's close to what I just said. 

1st off I do not care what Hobby you get into " Do Not  expect to make a profit in it. " It's not normally there. 

The Way these guys sometimes make a profit from trains is they ruin them by stripping them apart piece by piece and selling them piece by piece for parts. And even that is getting tough as there is so many out there I can normally go to Like Jeff Kane and buy parts from him Cheaper than on ebay or a lot of the other parts guys as a lot of them buy them from Jeff.  ( He will tell you that himself) 

Fixing up trains should be because you enjoy doing and your doing it for yourself. Or maybe a few friends but not looking to making a profit out of it as it isn't there. 

Hi. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear in my original post about my intentions. My intention was not to "make money": I have a job for that, which earns me quite enough. However, since this is a hobby that involves hundreds and thousands of dollars (I've spent $1, 750 in the past two months on this), I was hoping to be able to sell trains I restore at a price sufficient to cover the expense of buying trains in need of restoration, parts, chemicals, and so on. I do not make enough money to sustain a rather expensive hobby and not find a way to get back some of the money. I thought that was rather clear in my original post, but obviously not. Maybe one has to be wealthy, then, to engage in this hobby--I am not. I am not trying to get into this hobby for any other reason than I have collected quite a few prewar Lionel toy trains over the course of two decades, learned something about them, and treasure them as representative of their time and place, which actually IS my profession--I am a college professor who specializes in the interwar period. I like thinking about who made these trains, what these people were like at that time, the world at that time, etc. I have a large collection of all sorts of antiques from that same time period, for the same reason, so it isn't a profit motive. For instance, if at all possible, I will not buy trains built after 1938, which is when Kristallnacht occurred, and the Nazis began their mass murder, and I don't want to think of my trains being of that time. So in fact I think I have rather legitimate reasons to engage in this hobby. I hope a few others out there might understand where I am coming from, but perhaps not.

 (I've spent $1, 750 in the past two months on this),

Maybe you could just slow down your buying.
Are you reselling any of your other antiques at a profit?

Now is not the time to try to start a (hobby) business selling trains or any other collectables. The economy still isn't very good for your average Joe / Jill. Most younger people have no interest in collecting anything. They don't have the money or the space. They like to be mobile, not tied down with lots of excessive stuff.

Across the entire world of collecting prices are down.

I would agree with CW and add that those of us who love prewar are definitely in a smaller segment of the hobby where most of the attention goes to the newer stuff and has sound, etc.

Tom

Hey Tom, Tinplate has "sound" and OZONE too!

Just one more comment in context of Count Orlock's latest comment: I know that when I take on a restoration, it will be unlikely to yield a financial benefit, but I can at least get some 'sweat equity' into the piece, and enjoyment in the process (I do enjoy working on the stuff). Cleaning up a neglected older piece that maybe hasn't turned it's wheel since the kids broke it in 1939 is pretty cool.

My daughter and I rebuilt a really trashed 38 that looked like it had been under water for a while. Beat out the dents, painted it, cleaned up the drivers and mechanism, put power to it, and it ran great for 2 minutes until the motor commutator came apart. Sent the motor out for rewind/rebuild, came back and because it was rewound with modern enamelled wire (vs the original cloth wrapped), it runs way faster than the other original 38 that I have ( I think the rewind was under $40). Was over 90 years old when rebuilt, now 100 years old and runs (and almost looks) like new. Probably worth $100, but a lot more to me because we did it together.

Jim

CountOrlock posted:

I like thinking about who made these trains, what these people were like at that time, the world at that time, etc.

I like this perspective on why you like this time period.
As I stated in a previous post, after a train rebuild or restoration is in process or done, I think of how that child looked when he or she opened up a gift at Christmas or a Birthday. Looks like there are a lot of people that feel the same way to you and I feel.
I would suggest work on your trains and if you decide to sell one that you may have a double of, just sell it. If you break even that is great. Plus looks like you have a good idea if you see a piece that you are looking to purchase as you know the replacement value of the parts and can calculate it when looking at it. Just have fun. 
Question would you have any pictures of your work?

Rob English posted:

Hey Tom, Tinplate has "sound" and OZONE too!

 

Yes...A sound/noise/clatter all to its own! 

Tom