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As I perused this sub-subway forum (no pun intended) I viewed great subway line action, though I couldn't find any pictures/videos of subway lines retrofitted into an existing layout.

Like many of you, I have personal subway experiences that left indelible memories. Living in S. Philly I rode the Broad Street subway from Morrison/Tasker station to Temple University. Later, I worked for the Phila. Water Department and had some fascinating experiences in the subterranean infrastructure of the city.

My existing layout has a base height of 43", and while I have a train line that goes underneath my city, the line is nonetheless at the base height, reappearing like some interurban trains do in Philly and New York City, in and out from under the city. What I would ideally (someday) like to build is an actual under the table subway line.

What I was trying to find on this sub-subway forum is pictures/videos of subway lines that travel underneath the main action of a layout, and specifically, how the builder displays those scenes. My current thought is to hide the trackage via black curtains with openings for stations. Another idea would be to use wood paneling to hide the trackage and have display openings/windows cut in every so many feet. Or, just have it all open, though that obvious would require building a real subway as it would need copious amounts of infrastructure background.

Also, can anyone recommend subway sets that model old-time cars, circa 1920s/1930s? And, is anyone still making subway sets? I recall MTH dominated the market, and Lionel made one set many years ago. I don't need to pull the trigger on a set now, unless it was one of those must haves, but am curious as to the old time-looking cars.

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Hi Paul. For those time frames, You should go with the MTH R1, bmt standards, Q cars,  and the lo-V. The r-1 and bmts are premier sets which runs best on o54 curves (they may take 42) and the lo- v is a railking model which runs fine on o32 curves.  The lo-vs can often be obtained from auction sites and the buy sell board for reasonable prices. The premier sets are a little more expensive and harder to find but they are out there as well.  All are MTH and there is no word on if they will make them again, although I haven’t read about them selling the molds to these models). Lionel has never made subways from the time frame you are looking at.

I retrofitted a subway line into my 45 inch high layout. I simply added crossbeams and cut some spare base wood, keeping the whole plan simple and open. I have 3 subway stations, 4 yard spurs, and two loops under the layout with o54 curves.  It wasn’t too difficult  Here are a few older videos which may give you an idea ( the green engine running on the outer subway line in the second video is a premier R1).

Also, don’t forget that retrofitting an elevated line is also a fun addition.  Good luck.  

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Last edited by Strap Hanger

Great implementation, Strap! Your city is a work of art, and I like the prominent portrayal of the subway action. I can imagine doing something similar under my city...and then with hidden areas via curtain or removable wood panels. I have a fold-down river, however, which would necessitate lift-out subway sections (nothing is easy).

Does anyone recommend the Loco-sound MTH subway sets? I see some advertised now and then...what don't you get as compared to PS2 or PS3 features with Loco-sound?

@Paul Kallus posted:

Great implementation, Strap! Your city is a work of art, and I like the prominent portrayal of the subway action. I can imagine doing something similar under my city...and then with hidden areas via curtain or removable wood panels. I have a fold-down river, however, which would necessitate lift-out subway sections (nothing is easy).

Does anyone recommend the Loco-sound MTH subway sets? I see some advertised now and then...what don't you get as compared to PS2 or PS3 features with Loco-sound?

Thanks Paul.  One of the best features with MTH subways is the subway station announcement effects, which can be operated without a dcs system in conventional mode for a ps2 or ps3 engine.   You get to hear the various stops, you hear squealing brake noises and other accent sounds that a real train would make and you can even program it to stop at your specific stations  and sound out your favorite station stops or run them all in sequence on the particular line of the model you buy. If you get a DCS system, its even better and it really makes operating the subways easier and more fun. For example, with DCS, I  was able to program my subways to stop at each of my three disparately located under layout subway stations and now when I put the train on "auto mode" it stops at each station and announces the station stop, then proceeds to my next station.  It will continuously do this in a loop until all stations have been announced, then it will reverse and do the same in a descending station order - all automatically and all stopping at my 3 stations.  With loco sounds, you get none of that.  Loco-Sound is a purely conventional, no frills sound system. I would not recommend it.   What i would recommend is a ps2 3 volt subway or a ps3 subway.  Stay away from the ps2 5 volt subways unless you get it for a really cheap price making the installation of a new board cost effective.  The ps2 5 volt boards tend to fail at a higher rate in subways, since they run so hot with all the electronics crammed into the small space of the engine. The Lo-V ps2 3 volt engines (which fit your era perfectly) are frequently available on auction sites for decent prices.  Good luck!

Last edited by Strap Hanger

Making the first sub tunnel modules in O now over 20 years ago, they are hard to view down low. They remain packed up back in Nashville and for sale. Moving to Fl. I have no room anymore for them. All G.G. Stainless trackage, another must to have trouble free operation.

I would suggest having the tops open so you can look down or rising them up to standing eye level.

Retrofits to existing layouts simply don't work. Need to be designed and thought out from the beginning.

There are many unforeseen logistics as well. Just my experience.

If you are just doing an above ground EL, that's easier.

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I have to disagree  You can add a subway to an existing layout if is high enough off  the floor I know because I helped build (add) the Subway  to the TMB model train.club layout Although our layout is no more ( we lost our lease) many videos of our subway line in action are available on YouTube It was a very difficult job and  would have been much easier if it had been planned from the beginning

Good feedback all around. It's always challenging to retrofit after construction, though like most or everyone else in our hobby we have lightbulb moments after the fact. One facet of model RR construction that is rarely seen is subway trains that rise via grade into another level, or even emerge at base-level through tunnels. Anyone who knows the R5 Septa line in Philly can appreciate what I am describing. What not a subway per se, it is an electric train that travels via surface and then descends into the bowels of the city - a really cool ride

Regarding the PS2 5 volt vs. 3 volt systems; is there a method to determine what sets use which, or is by date of manufacture - and does anyone know that date for the subway sets?

MTH subways were not designed for grades. You  would need an extra power unit with-in the 6 car train in some cases. Might want to think about that issue first. You will also go through more traction tires as well. Not worth the trouble.

Most operators of existing layouts attempt to force an underground line as an afterthought in which in the majority of cases will be too low to properly view. I guess one could possibly extend the legs?



Just an FYI.

Last edited by SIRT
@Paul Kallus posted:

Regarding the PS2 5 volt vs. 3 volt systems; is there a method to determine what sets use which, or is by date of manufacture - and does anyone know that date for the subway sets?

The cutoff point between the ps2 5 volt and 3 volt boards is early 2000s but there was overlap where both boards were being sold. The easiest way to tell is if you turn the engine upside down, the 5 volt board has a round battery charging port and the 3 volt has a rectangular 2 pin charging port.  The good news for you if you stick to the engine era that you previously posted, all the engines that fit (lo-v, bmt standard, Q cars,  and the R1) were made after MTH switched to the ps2 3 volt boards and some were even reissued in ps3. SIRT is 100% correct about grades.  

Last edited by Strap Hanger
@Paul Kallus posted:

Does anyone recommend the Loco-sound MTH subway sets? I see some advertised now and then...what don't you get as compared to PS2 or PS3 features with Loco-sound?

My experience with Loco-Sound is less than pleasant.  Basically, as implemented in their PCC streetcars, you get diesel engine noises which can't be turned off without turning off the horn and bell sounds  and an always-on, unswitchable E-Unit.  I wound up either removing the Loco-Sound and installing a rectifier bridge or simply selling the offending streetcar.   Don't know if the Loco-Sound subway cars have the diesel sound, but if you get one, be prepared for unsatisfactory performance. 

Mitch

@SIRT posted:

MTH subways were not designed for grades. You  would need an extra power unit with-in the 6 car train in some cases. Might want to think about that issue first. You will also go through more traction tires as well. Not worth the trouble.

Most operators of existing layouts attempt to force an underground line as an afterthought in which in the majority of cases will be too low to properly view. I guess one could possibly extend the legs?



Just an FYI.

SIRT is right about the grades - what people don’t realize is that the subway sets come with a powered car and 3 “trailers” - when is reality - they are equivalent to dummy locos that are much heavier to pull - if you run a 6 car train it’s the equivalent to you running one engine with 5 non powered engines behind it - very heavy.

The cutoff point between the ps2 5 volt and 3 volt boards is early 2000s but there was overlap where both boards were being sold. The easiest way to tell is if you turn the engine upside down, the 5 volt board has a round battery charging port and the 3 volt has a rectangular 2 pin charging port.  The good news for you if you stick to the engine era that you previously posted, all the engines that fit (lo-v, bmt standard, and the R1) were made after MTH switched to the ps2 3 volt boards and some were even reissued in ps3. SIRT is 100% correct about grades.  

The sets with PS 2 - 5 volt boards are the R21 redbird, R17 diamond 5 train, R32 N train and the R17 all red scheme.  I agree - stay away unless you get a dynamite price because they are prone to fail in the blink of an eye - you don’t have to do anything wrong and the board blows.

The first proto 2 - 3 volt system was the R17 graffiti set.

Good luck!

@Yank2304 posted:


The sets with PS 2 - 5 volt boards are the R21 redbird, R17 diamond 5 train, R32 N train and the R17 all red scheme.  I agree - stay away unless you get a dynamite price because they are prone to fail in the blink of an eye - you don’t have to do anything wrong and the board blows.

The first proto 2 - 3 volt system was the R17 graffiti set.

Good luck!

You left out the original R36 worlds fair set. That is the only ps2 5 volt subway engine that is still chugging in my fleet. All others blew years ago and were replaced with ps2 3 volt boards or ps3 stacker boards. Hopefully, this engine can avoid the curse. I got hopeful when I read your post and thought maybe I had pegged the worlds fair engine wrong and didn’t have to worry about it blowing aboard. Alas, a quick check of the underside just now confirmed it’s a ps2 5 volt engine, the last survivor in my entire subway collection.

Last edited by Strap Hanger

You left out the original R36 worlds fair set. That is the only ps2 5 volt subway engine that is still chugging in my fleet. All others blew years ago and were replaced with ps2 3 volt boards or ps3 stacker boards. Hopefully, this engine can avoid the curse. I got hopeful when I read your post and thought maybe I had pegged the worlds fair engine wrong and didn’t have to worry about it blowing aboard. Alas, a quick check of the underside just now confirmed it’s a ps2 5 volt engine, the last survivor in my entire subway collection.

Yes - I simply missed it/forgot - yea the original world’s fair set with the logos is a proto 2 - 5 volt AND the NW2 from the work train set.  Seems I missed that entire catalog in this post!

Hi Paul. For those time frames, You should go with the MTH R1, bmt standards, Q cars,  and the lo-V. The r-1 and bmts are premier sets which runs best on o54 curves (they may take 42) and the lo- v is a railking model which runs fine on o32 curves.  The lo-vs can often be obtained from auction sites and the buy sell board for reasonable prices. The premier sets are a little more expensive and harder to find but they are out there as well.  All are MTH and there is no word on if they will make them again, although I haven’t read about them selling the molds to these models). Lionel has never made subways from the time frame you are looking at.

I retrofitted a subway line into my 45 inch high layout. I simply added crossbeams and cut some spare base wood, keeping the whole plan simple and open. I have 3 subway stations, 4 yard spurs, and two loops under the layout with o54 curves.  It wasn’t too difficult  Here are a few older videos which may give you an idea ( the green engine running on the outer subway line in the second video is a premier R1).

Also, don’t forget that retrofitting an elevated line is also a fun addition.  Good luck.  

can you confirm the height of the lower level and mid level?

is the mid level 45" from floor? whats the lower subway level height?

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