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I hope this can be a simple project; I'm not an EE guy.

I want to connect the output of a MTH Z750 transformer (18 VAC, 75 watts) Upper Level with Trolley 2to a project box containing three rheostats, each with a control knob capable of delivering 0 to 18 VAC output as track power to lock-ons at three separate trolley lines. Do-able?  Feasible?  If so, what value rheostats should be installed?

I've read web pages that suggest a potentiometer can be used instead of a rheostat. If so, what value "pot' would be appropriate?

A recommended source for the devices would be helpful. I couldn't find products at the websites for Radio Shack or Del City Electronics.

FYI, the three trolley lines are rather short -- approx. eight to ten feet long -- with bump-n-go devices placed on the rails, as:
   * Lionel "Brill" Christmas trolley
   * MTH Santa Handcar
   * Industrial Rail two-truck trolley.

Each device has its own "favorite voltage" for maintaining speed, which is why I need want to provide the "just right" voltage to each trolley line  (not the same voltage to all three lines.) The speed must be controlled so as not to SMACK! the bumpers at the ends of each line too hard and cause a derailment, yet activate the onboard reversing feature.

I considered installing three MTH ZDC1 transformers (20 watts) for DC power to each trolley line, since all three devices have DC can motors inside. However, that seems to be overkill, albeit an elegant solution.

Responses can be sent by e-mail to: mottlerm@gmail.com.

With appreciation,

Mike  Mottler (ritrainguy)
501-327-8747

 

   

 

 

 

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  • Upper Level with Trolley 2: Industrial Rail Trolley on Line 1
Original Post

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Ted W.

Thanks for your prompt and positive first response to my "call for help."  I read the stats on the LM317 device, and the text shows the input and output voltages, but the amp rating shown is 1.5 amps -- probably not enough to run an O-gauge trolley. However, the price is right! Much cheaper than an alternative -- three MTH ZDC1 units.

I wonder -- perhaps the manufacturer in China makes other similar products with a higher amp rating, such as: 5 amps. 

Mike   (ritrainguy)
LCCA 12394

These PWM are inexpensive on the bay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6V-90V...?hash=item41b7e6a8ef and they can be mounted in a project box.  I'm using one for light dimming.  Works great.

I have five bump & go trolleys running and am well a where of the need to trim the voltage for each trolley to attain the best speed and reduce the "smack".  Two of the trolleys are trimmed off separate PW ZW channels.  The other three are trimmed via separate variable TIU channels fed by a Z1000.   My trolley runs are short.  Two are each about 10 feet, one with dual reversing loops.  The other three are really short, about 4 feet.  Unfortunately, I can't use MTH trolleys (better low speed control) on the really short runs since the trolleys are too long.

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  • mceclip0
Last edited by shorling
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The PWM controllers are a good solution, but you'll need lots of filtered DC power to use them.  A good choice is an old PC power supply, you get tons of cheap DC power from them.  Here's a nice tutorial on how to use a PC supply.

Convert ATX PSU to Bench Supply

You're suggesting to feed the PWMs with an old PC regulated power supply which provides filtered DC ?    Since he has 3 trolleys runs, he could trim each with separate PWM's mounted in his project box.  I use the 12 VDC supply from Micro Mark which provides 33 amps.  It powers DC to my entire layout, mostly for LEDs and custom electronics.

Note the proposed DC control modules (whether the LM317 type, the PWM type, etc.) can only LOWER the effective output voltage.   I'd think starting from 12V DC as from a PC power supply should be enough for trolleys.  If not (i.e., you need more DC voltage) another source of low cost DC power might be a 90W laptop charger.  I have written about this in other threads but here's a couple relevant photos:

90 watt DC brick wall wart less than 10 bucks shipped

These go for between $5-10 shipped on eBay (search for 90W Universal laptop charger).  This one has a selector slide switch to change the output voltage from 12 to 24V DC in 7 steps with LED selection indicator.  There are other wattage converters of course but I thought 90W was similar to your 75W Z brick.

A side-by-side with the AC output Z-1000 brick.  Note not just the size but the physical weight difference!

ac dc brick comparison with inset

In any event, if you go the DC route, definitely consider the PWM motor controllers as Shorling shows.  The point being DC voltage controllers are more readily available and inexpensive that AC voltage controllers.

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  • 90 watt DC brick wall wart less than 10 bucks shipped
  • ac dc brick comparison with inset

Steve
Gunrunner John
Stan
Arthur

Thanks to all who responded to my post about DC track power to three trolley lines on my layout.  The result -- I'll buy a 90w universal laptop charger as the DC power source to three PWMs.

I just bought three PWM units to be mounted in a project box with the knob controllers for speed control, and then send the variable DC output of each PWM to a track lock-on at each trolley line.  

Onward, with appreciation!

Mike   (ritrainguy)
LCCA 12394


 

Good to see you have solved your problem here. There is always lots of good folks willing to help here too.

I will add this for anyone thinking of using the PC power supply for powering what ever they might want to. I found these on ebay a few months ago and had to have a couple to add to my already way too long list of future projects. I just can not resist these things when a nifty one comes along and the prices are so enticing too. PC Power Supply Adapter.  Just a FYI to go along with GRJ's post above maybe it will help someone and it sure makes the conversion easier.

I think GRJ was accounting for shipping which brings it up to $26.

Untitled

In any case that's a great price for "power."  I use the metric of $/Watt and look for 10 cents per Watt (or less) for fixed output converters whether AC or DC.

So the 450W ATX is less than 5 cents per Watt.  A 90W laptop charger is less than 10 cents per Watt.  A typical AC brick from a train manufacturer might be 50 cents to $1 per Watt. 

Likewise, when you regulate/adjust/control the voltage, DC controllers are much less expensive than AC controllers.  So as I see it, if your trolley, engine, layout accessory, lighting, whatever can operate on DC, that's the way to go.  My 2 cents.

 

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  • Untitled

A Curtain Call with a Drum Roll and Applause to all Responders to my Initial Posting ...

This afternoon I performed test runs on all three trolley lines with my MTH bump-and-go Santa Handcar on the rails of each line in rotation.  Using alligator clips, I temporarily attached a small starter set HO transformer (with 16 VDC, 7 watts output) to each line and opened the throttle to the max.

The handcar ran smartly back and forth on all three lines, but made a hesitation at one section of O27 track on Line 1.  Upon close inspection, I discovered that track section had deformed rail ends and loose pins, so I replaced it.  Presto -- hesitation problem solved. 

I also test-ran the larger two-truck trolley (made by Industrial Rail) on the longest trolley line of the three using the same HO transformer as the power source. Same song, second stanza.

I initially toyed with the idea of using three HO starter set hobby transformers (each one not much bigger than a pack of cigs) for this trolley adventure for individual control of trolleys on each line. But that seemed like an inelegant solution with unknown long-operating-sessions outcomes; i.e., over-heating and possible burnout.

Your suggestions will provide "head room" in the control system and offer a much more elegant solution.  The pieces suggested are now on order, and I expect them to arrive at Mottler Station in a few days. I'll mount the pieces in a project box and then apply for an Honorary Technician Certificate.


Mike   (ritrainguy)
Old dog learning a new trick with thanks to sagacious friends who are generous with good advice.

MHM & trains, Lo Res

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  • MHM & trains, Lo Res: Mike with RI Trains

As you begin to move into DC, you may want to plan for future expansion since this is a hobby where there is always room for "more".  I've replaced most of the incandescent bulbs on my layout with LEDs powered by 12 VDC.  This was a huge power saving.  I have a lot of lighting on my layout that is not easily accessible, so LEDs are a must.  I also have a lot of Department 56 buildings.  I just screw the LED bulbs into the Department 56 power cords and then plug the cords into 12 VDC power strips.  I also have 40+ post war style switch controllers all using direct replacement LEDs.  My 450 signal bridges, stations,  bumpers,etc all illuminated by LEDs.  My city scene so far has 24+ inexpensive lamp posts using incandescents dimmed using the subject DC PWM.

Steve

Thanks for the tip about using LEDs in Dept 56 lighted porcelain buildings. I previously bought the Dept 56 low-watt (3V) incandescent bulbs (instead of the "stock" 110 VAC  bulbs) and the supportive power distribution strips for the bulbs, but putting LEDs in those sockets instead of the 3V bulbs provided by Dept 56 makes sense.

The upper level of my emerging home layout with three trolley lines will also include about 20 Dept 56 NORTH POLE VILLAGE buildings on that elevated platform; some are animated and seem to require 110 VAC to drive the motor for the animation. There is a separate AC cord and standard plug for that feature.  I wonder -- would the animation work if fed low voltage? Or not?

With appreciation,

Mike    LCCA 12394

 

Mike H Mottler posted:

Steve

Thanks for the tip about using LEDs in Dept 56 lighted porcelain buildings. I previously bought the Dept 56 low-watt (3V) incandescent bulbs (instead of the "stock" 110 VAC  bulbs) and the supportive power distribution strips for the bulbs, but putting LEDs in those sockets instead of the 3V bulbs provided by Dept 56 makes sense.

The upper level of my emerging home layout with three trolley lines will also include about 20 Dept 56 NORTH POLE VILLAGE buildings on that elevated platform; some are animated and seem to require 110 VAC to drive the motor for the animation. There is a separate AC cord and standard plug for that feature.  I wonder -- would the animation work if fed low voltage? Or not?

With appreciation,

Mike    LCCA 12394

 

Most of my D56 animations  had power adapters which converted to low voltage DC.  I replaced the adapters with step down converters power by my 12 VDC.  I try to limit the 110 VAC on the table.  I have one D56 building that runs on 110 VAC that I couldn't adapt.  I used a low power auto inverter, 12 VDC input: 110 VAC output.

Your D56 layout sounds similar to mine.  My D56 is CIC and is elevated above my Grand Central Station tracks.  I have the the Lionel full size Grand Central Station  on top plus most of the CIC skyscrapers: Empire State, Times Buidling, Chrysler Buidling, Radio City, Flat Iron, etc.  I'm using Superstreets to run the trolleys.  There's a trolley that runs around Grand Central and down to Columbus Circle and back.  There are also 3 trolleys running through a traffic light intersection in front of Grand Central.  The trolleys stop and go in sync with the traffic lights.

Steve

You were generous to consider my modest emerging home layout as "similar" to yours; however, it seems that your layout is far more sophisticated than mine! Great idea to operate trolleys in sync with the traffic lights.

The local train club (Central AR Model Railroad Club - CAMRC) installed SuperStreets on its layout; one as a simple out-and-back run with a bump-and-go trolley on the street and the other with a car or stepvan on a simple oval.  Some cars ran fine, but some didn't. We discovered that the center rail conductor built-in to a few of the street sections was buried too deeply in the plastic roadway, so the pick-up roller couldn't "reach" it. Ironically, the police car ran best and a stepvan ran worst.  I suggested that we inspect every track section and discard the ones with a "deeply buried" center rail. Most of the club members quickly tired of the hassle, gave up on the SuperStreets system, set the pieces aside, and never used them again. Too bad. At club-sponsored local train shows, the SuperStreet action was always a hit with kids.

The 45 or so Dept 56 buildings I collected are from the NORTH POLE VILLAGE series. They are thematically related to family members:
  Christmas Bread Bakery -- for my dad, a commercial baker
  KOLD Radio -- related to my career in broadcasting
  Polar Power -- for my brother-in-law, an electronics inventor
   Weather & Time Observatory -- for my younger sister Joanne who lived in Florida; always dodging hurricanes
   Peanut Brittle Factory -- for my wife Carol, peanut brittle maker at Christmastime
   Etc.

The Dept 56 buildings will be placed on the upper level for about 2/3rds of that elevated area. The other third will be 12 Ameritowne downtown buildings (fronts only) -- two blocks with six buildings on each block.

And so it goes ...

Mike    (ritrainguy)
LCCA 12394

 


   

   

 

 

 

 

Mike H Mottler posted:

Steve

You were generous to consider my modest emerging home layout as "similar" to yours; however, it seems that your layout is far more sophisticated than mine! Great idea to operate trolleys in sync with the traffic lights.

The local train club (Central AR Model Railroad Club - CAMRC) installed SuperStreets on its layout; one as a simple out-and-back run with a bump-and-go trolley on the street and the other with a car or stepvan on a simple oval.  Some cars ran fine, but some didn't. We discovered that the center rail conductor built-in to a few of the street sections was buried too deeply in the plastic roadway, so the pick-up roller couldn't "reach" it. Ironically, the police car ran best and a stepvan ran worst.  I suggested that we inspect every track section and discard the ones with a "deeply buried" center rail. Most of the club members quickly tired of the hassle, gave up on the SuperStreets system, set the pieces aside, and never used them again. Too bad. At club-sponsored local train shows, the SuperStreet action was always a hit with kids.

The 45 or so Dept 56 buildings I collected are from the NORTH POLE VILLAGE series. They are thematically related to family members:
  Christmas Bread Bakery -- for my dad, a commercial baker
  KOLD Radio -- related to my career in broadcasting
  Polar Power -- for my brother-in-law, an electronics inventor
   Weather & Time Observatory -- for my younger sister Joanne who lived in Florida; always dodging hurricanes
   Peanut Brittle Factory -- for my wife Carol, peanut brittle maker at Christmastime
   Etc.

The Dept 56 buildings will be placed on the upper level for about 2/3rds of that elevated area. The other third will be 12 Ameritowne downtown buildings (fronts only) -- two blocks with six buildings on each block.

And so it goes ...

Mike    (ritrainguy)
LCCA 12394

 


   

   

 

 

 

 

I haven't had any issues with the straight or curved Superstreet sections (original gray) with trolleys as long as they have pickup rollers.   The slide pickups have issues.  The intersection crossovers are bumpy, no smooth transverse there.  The "Y" switches also have speed issues but work.  They use Lionel and MTH bump & go trolleys but the Grand Central loop uses the "Y" switches to form a double reversing loop running a taxi.

Our layouts are still similar.  I have family related scenes.  My wife is a Redsox fan so we have a Fenway scene.  My Dad's office was near the Polo Grounds so we have a 155th Street subway station.   We use building fronts around the back wall.  I had one of the fronts custom made to include my Dad's Office, an apartment building of his, and Madison Hardware..  My wife's family had a summer cottage on a lake, so we have a lake with the cottage.  Across the lake is my wife's Aunt's farm.  Abutting the lake is a mountain vineyard, we're wine folks.  There's a Woodland stop on the elevated section.  My Grandparents are there.  I'm working the NYC city scene now.  My parents were from NYC.   You get the idea, similar.

Steve

 

Mike,

The D56 cords use a candelabra base bulb.   It seems D56 had changed the base design over the years.  My LED bulb candelabra bases have a shoulder that prevents the bulb from bottoming out in the socket and making contact on older cords.  I ream out the top of the socket which allow the screw base to sink deeper into the socket, thus making contact. The newer cords work fine.

 

Steve:

As a test purchase, today I bought two LED bulbs at HOME DEPOT, made by Meridian, #13177 --  7 watts with a C7 (candleabra) base. The fine print on the package says "Use in 120V Fixtures Only." Since the original Dept 56 wires & sockets were intended for 120V, but I applied the Dept 56 low-voltage distribution system to them, I believe these bulbs might work. And if not, the "test" only cost $5.

In case my test doesn't work, please provide the brand and source of your LED bulbs.

With thanks upfront,

Mike   (ritrainguy)

Mike H Mottler posted:

Steve:

As a test purchase, today I bought two LED bulbs at HOME DEPOT, made by Meridian, #13177 --  7 watts with a C7 (candleabra) base. The fine print on the package says "Use in 120V Fixtures Only." Since the original Dept 56 wires & sockets were intended for 120V, but I applied the Dept 56 low-voltage distribution system to them, I believe these bulbs might work. And if not, the "test" only cost $5.

In case my test doesn't work, please provide the brand and source of your LED bulbs.

With thanks upfront,

Mike   (ritrainguy)

For anyone to reply, are there LED bulbs that give off a similar soft white/yellowish appearance of the stock Dept 56 incandescent bulbs.  I don't like the bluish/white light that seems common for LEDs.  Anyone familiar with bulb options at Lowes, Home Depot, or WalMart?

Thanks

 

Mike H Mottler posted:

Steve:

As a test purchase, today I bought two LED bulbs at HOME DEPOT, made by Meridian, #13177 --  7 watts with a C7 (candleabra) base. The fine print on the package says "Use in 120V Fixtures Only." Since the original Dept 56 wires & sockets were intended for 120V, but I applied the Dept 56 low-voltage distribution system to them, I believe these bulbs might work. And if not, the "test" only cost $5.

In case my test doesn't work, please provide the brand and source of your LED bulbs.

With thanks upfront,

Mike   (ritrainguy)

The bulbs I purchased on eBay from China a few years back are E12 SMD 12 vdc corn style.  Mine have no glass bulb domes which was not a problem for me since they are inside D56 buildings.  I could not find similar bulbs on eBay today.  All the bulbs I saw had glass domes.   The bulbs are available in various color temperatures.  2700 k is similar to incondescent.  You need to make sure the bulb diameter will fit through the hole in the building.  I purchased a few samples of various types to test fit, brightness and color.  You also need to keep the polarity correct since you are working with dc.  + is bulb center, - is the base shell.

Lowes, Home Depot and others have LED bulbs in different color temperatures. The 2700k-3000k should be warm white similar to an incandescent bulb. The higher the number the 'more blueish' the light becomes. 5000k is daylight and there is also usually a 6500k, forget what that one is called though. If you go by the color temp (should be listed on every bulb's packaging) you should be able to find something you like. There is also a 4100k in some bulb lines. Everyone seems to like a different color temp, so it's a personal preference thing.

Good advice from train hobby friends is good news.  In a few more days, I'll receive the PWM devices (shipped from China) for DC voltage and speed control of my three trolley lines, with DC power provided to them by a PC laptop power supply; those ideas were previously offered by contributors to this thread on the OGR FORUM. As of today, the trolley tracks are installed on the upper level, the lighted lock-ons are in place, and track power feeder wires are dressed up from the lock-ons back to the control panel. The remaining "missing links" are the PWMs -- which I intend to mount in a project box.

I did a brief, temporary test of the tracks with a HO power pack, and the trolleys worked OK. An encouraging result!

With thanks to all ...

Mike   (ritrainguy)
22 Water Oak Drive
Conway, AR  72034
501-327-8747
mottlerm@gmail.com

 

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