My first effort, radio controlled westside ATSF Mikado 3182. No track power, could run it on the floor.
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Ron,
About three years ago I sat through a two rail demonstration(at The March Meet) of battery powered locomotives. The factory rep showed two engines running on a single track about five tables(40') long. It was obvious I was the only three rail guy in the room of about twenty. During the question and answer period, I asked if using their system could I run two rail engines on my three rail layout. To answer, he took one engine off the track and ran it on the table cloth. That got everyone's attention. I think he said one 'charge' was good for two hours of running. He showed the female charging port and said it could be almost hidden in the cab or tender. Thinking it through, during a four hour operating session with multiple engines, it would be unusual for one engine to run two hours. Think of all the time spent wiring a layout. No more.
John in Lansing, ILL
That's what I was thinking John. I've gotten really tired of the wiring.
ron
Many won't admit it but battery power is the ultimate future. It would be best to promote battery power to new people entering the hobby as many are already so vested that they won't covert. It would phase itself in over a generation.
Fred, with batteries being improved almost monthly a scale size baggage car or reefer could be used for the batteries with charging port in a bunker hatch, clerestory roof or window. Park it on a siding and put the plug in. John in Lansing, ILL
When I was a wee little one, I started with battery powered toy trains. Then I was given a Marx O-27 set which opened the floodgates. I got to use REAL tools to fasten the track to plywood. In wiring it up, I learned that electricity dosen't use 1 wire, but needs a return path, hence a closed circuit. Learning the of a multi-meter to determine conductivity in track joints, determine if a a lamp was blown, or track down voltage loss was outright amazing, and I wasn't even double digits old! Of course, the next step was to add in an automatic crossing gate. Oh I loathed the 153C and was astonished to find how elegant it was to use the metal wheels and an insulated track section to act as a electrical switch! Oh, and the crossing gate didn't have a motor; it had a solenoid! Next was the dwarf signal, but that had two states - this introduced me to relays - a solenoid that controlled a electrical switch. As a preteen, I became a whiz at these analog circuits! Skip over many years, and now I'm using a Raspberry Pi (small hobbyist computer) to use digital solid state components to control relays on my layout.
To me, the joy of this hobby isn't solely about watching/commanding trains go round, but the learning and experiences gained in the electrical, carpentry and general DIY arenas.
No one would argue that battery power dosen't lower the bar of entry into having trains go round. But I think that it also lowers the returns this hobby has in electrical skills and knowledge development. I feel that there are many who have a romance looking back on their growth and this personal attachment weighs in when evaluating the pros and cons of battery powered locomotives.
I foresee my setup remaining conventional low voltage pure sine wave AC over three conductive rails.
I would be interested on the conversion and what type of board. I agree that battery technology has greatly improved in the last few years. As for wiring skills that would still be needed as buildings, turnouts etc. Would still need to have power.
suzukovich posted:As for wiring skills that would still be needed
And for installing the battery system in existing locomotives.
Rusty
Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
RCS America has usually been in Orange hall at York. I bought one of their systems with Phoenix Sound to install in an LGB Mogul. It was a great learning experience and turned out very well. Wife and I took a bunch of well-tarnished brass G track out to the garden area, laid out a loop with minimal attempts to level/align it, put the engine on the track.........No Problem, Joe!
I took the engine to our shop (LHS) and gave the same demo.....put the engine/tender on the store carpet, and away she chugged, whistled, chimed. Of course none of the RC guys/customers were that impressed....it IS their domain. But the train guys/customers were quite amazed.
The RCS America group had several O scale engines demonstrating the feasibility of battery power.
If you have a full-line hobby shop (RC planes, cars, drones, boats, etc.) spend some time talking and seeing what battery advances have done to that branch of hobbies. And motor miniaturization, too.
It's probably only a matter of time before there'll be a Battery Power category in the controls portion of this forum. I expect a major producer (e.g., Bachmann) will offer this O scale (O2R, On30)....or even HO!!...paradigm busting technology to test the market.
Yo, Jack!!!,,,,, Millie and Daisy are counting on you!
See you at York.
There are initial expenses to absorb when going to battery power and of course, there is locomotive wiring. However, the power densities available in lithium batteries is phenomenal. One must have a quality charger which is analogous to buying a quality transformer and a high quality transmitter which is analogous to buying a DCC or Tmcc system and the receivers and sound boards are about the same expense as buying ERR tmcc units.
I've competed nationally with RC cars for years so I am no stranger to all of this. We now fly very large rc planes with electric power.
I'll detail the equipment used as I go along. Since my railroad is around the wall I use manual switches. Since I have power wiring along the rails and below the board I can continue to power building lights and signals as before.
The biggest expense and time consumer is converting all my 3 rail scale locomotives to scale profile wheels.
Ron H,
You've done a great job and many thanks for the video and battery ideas. For me, there are still issues to resolve before battery power makes sense.
1) I need locos that put on a show with smoke and sound. I also would need battery conversion expertise which, sad to say, I don't have now.
2) I still need to wire switches, structures and signals. Track wiring, for me much easier than these I have just mentioned. One or two drops per electrical circuit and I'm done. Switches are another story.
3) Charging time and the required outlets and facilities are an issue. I would never leave the layout on to charge anything.
Scrappy
Ron,
Awesome as always. I still check on your progress from time to time. Haven't been on the board much or playing with trains since beginning of year-focusing on career stuff so I have time in the future to build a RR.
We get incredible run times out of our RC fleet of planes,vehicles,drones and boats....trains would be easy to power and charge. I have a lithium jumper pack(uses 18650 cells) that will jump start a V8 engine...and there are safer technologies ( LiFePO4) on the market as we speak...battery power..tis the future
Yep. Then those with the center rail will be those who like the way 3-rail track looks.
I predict - by 2020 MTH will offer a battery/RC set.
When the price drops to, say, double what it is now for an RC model car, my favorite 2-rail locomotives will be converted. No more dirty track issues!
"Fred, with batteries being improved almost monthly a scale size baggage car or reefer could be used for the batteries with charging port in a bunker hatch, clerestory roof or window. Park it on a siding and put the plug in. John in Lansing, ILL"
Better yet, insulate the trucks so you can flip a switch and you could have a charging track.
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
enginEErjon posted:
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
Blame it on age, blame it on lack of sleep, blame it on.....
I'm having trouble understanding the scenario under which this becomes a necessity.
I've never encountered this situation with my O3R basement-stuffing layout. I'm not sure why it's a BP issue.
I'm not even sure that a 'kill switch' is on the menu for several of the traditional BP/RC items.....airplanes, drones, heli's, boats. 
'Return-to-home', sure, but a sudden power termination?
Emergency Braking considerations are rather common on some brands of DC power packs having 'momentum' and other speed control variants. I believe even DCC has provision for an emergency braking. An RC throttle control could do the same, but whether that's using track power or battery power, is it not the same as what you seek?
Could you provide an example, perhaps??? Value added??
Thanks!
I'm sure there was a time when no one could imagine engines being available already equipped with a DCC board. Many thought we'd never see 2 rail wheel and kadee conversions being offered by Lionel, although they haven't done engines yet. I'm sure there was a time when no one could imagine 3/2 convertible engines from MTH. Onboard battery power isn't an if. It's when.
Battery power is intriguing. If there were an out-of-the-box locomotive available I'd probably purchase one to experiment with, but I don't think I'm going to invest the money, time and effort to convert my locomotives.
I view battery power as just another option, not something that's going to replace other forms of train control in my lifetime.
Rusty
dkdkrd posted:enginEErjon posted:
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
Blame it on age, blame it on lack of sleep, blame it on.....
I'm having trouble understanding the scenario under which this becomes a necessity.
Could you provide an example, perhaps??? Value added??
Thanks!
I can definitely try. And maybe my question is purely grounded in my personal situation.
Can I start by saying that laying out track on the floor or the back yard and being able to quickly run trains without having to do any wiring is quite the appeal.
On to the background for my previous question:
The layout that I use most (the one that my brother and I built in my Fathers house) has all of the transformers tied to a single switch. Ever since the layout was finished, this single switch has been a very helpful "kill switch" in the event of the unexpected. It has allowed a quick way to kill the power to all trains at once.
Some of those unexpected situations were an engine derailment that left the mainline blocked with a string of passenger cars. Another one was a more recent event when a nephew was running trains from his smartphone and I couldn't get back to the same engine on my handheld fast enough to prevent a collision caused by a switch. In both of these cases, flipping the switch killed power to all trains (usually 3) that were under motion.
With BPRC, each train has it's own power source, and while a small layout with a single engine may not need such a feature, but having a single kill switch has sure been nice to stop multiple engines much faster than doing them individually.
My situation may be unique in that we tend to allow the younger kids to run trains with us, so its likely that not all would need a kill switch but I was more curious if there was anything clever that already existed that would work.
I know that drones, planes, and other RC devices don't have kill switches, but I also know that crashing and rebuilding those items has always been part of the fun (at least for me). But the thought of chasing a run-away locomotive that has lost communication to its remote, sure brings some apprehension (at least for now).
(
Good reason to not accept RC. Also, it allows you to keep that gorgeous track, all those wires, and track cleaning equipment.
I have just test loops - and occasionally need to stop things now. I will not let that prevent an RC locomotive - but if it were an issue for a large segment of the hobby, an "all stop" command would be a trivial addition to what is now an extensive command protocol.
rattler21 posted:Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
There used to be a company called Del-Air that made a system that used air. I don't think they are around anymore. I would love air powered switches.
The one thing I've always hated about track power is that when something goes wrong, the entire layout may go into all stop mode. It can be quite annoying. I've seen it happen from little things like someone with a camera placing that camera on the tracks.
With RC battery power each engineer will prototypically be on his own with no artificial limits except for turnouts out of alignment.
Glad to see this is taking hold
It's been over 3 years since I started my BPRC conversions.
Most of mine use 9.6 NiMh 2000Mah battery packs, with a few using 11.1 LiPo 2200Mah packs, no issues so far.
I haven't run them much since April, my daughter/family moved home from Sicily. They have since moved into their new home so now I have the chance to fire them back up.
Some of them haven't been run in 6 months and so far they've all started up without having to recharge the batteries. Haven't cleaned the track in 6 months either 
, but dust still accumulates on the rails which can effect traction so I may attempt a good cleaning soon.
I still have plans for an around the entire upstairs layout, so all may be coming down shortly, but this time instead of yanking out the middle rail I'll start fresh with new 2-rail track and homemade turnouts (already have 6 built for the mainline).
I have seen no need for a "kill switch", the on/off switch on the engine has worked for me whenever I find the need (which has been rare to non-existent). The few derails I've had haven't been any problem, typically I'm standing right near the engine and simply put it back on the track (usually caused by not throwing a turnout).
Instead of powering the track to recharge the batteries I'd like to see developed an inductive charging system, like is used on a WaterPik. They make coils for this purpose, just don't know how they would work 1/2" or so from each other.
Great job Ron H!!!
It seems like lionel's bluetooth positions itself well for this kind of thing...
I have my Scalecraft NYC Hudson, beautifully detailed, running on three lithium ion 18650 cells, scavenged from a laptop battery pack (free) and charged by a one dollar board, a TP4056 form ebay, and a six dollar bluetooth speaker for sound. the most expensive part, a Bluerail board, and it all fits in the tender nicely, my daughter played with it on the kitchen bench for ages (no track). I just didnt feel like two railing her cTr...Choose the Right )
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feet posted:rattler21 posted:Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
There used to be a company called Del-Air that made a system that used air. I don't think they are around anymore. I would love air powered switches.
I was a user of the Del-Air system when I was in HO scale. They were excellent. I still have it all stored in my "to good to throw away box" I have given some thought to putting it back into use on my O scale, but nobody is supporting the system and that could leave me hanging so I will stay with my hand throws. They are much less involved and they work just fine.
Bob
Years ago myself and a friend from Martin Marietta who now has his own company Ferncreek Electronics , he constructed and perfected an interface between the battery packs you all have mentioned and the TMCC system , only wire to track is from the TMCC for the radio signal. It was extensively tested for a potential for outdoor trains, at the time I had a client for a huge outdoor layout and we liked the 3 rail flanges for outdoor use to keep the trains on the track but the customer wanted only 2 rails so we devised this system . No need to do anything but have this circuit board to make it work , Lionel said it could not be done 8 yrs ago ,we sent them a video but heard nary a word . At that time we ran a TMCC loco on a loop for about 2.5 hrs continuous ,batteries are much better today by far. Anybody that has 3 rail TMCC and wants to go the battery route , this would make it easy and you don't have to buy controls and such this was very simple to make work . The technology is in the board . Tom was very careful to not cross any lines or infringe on copyrights in case we decided to mass produce the board . If anyone has interest you can reach Tom at tom@fcelectro.com for more details ,he is very cool.
He is a very smart guy , he works on motion stabilizers and software for keeping cameras steady in action filming for the movie industry . When I had a shop building model railroads for 14 yrs we were neighbors ,his shop was next to mine , he did many many complex wiring applications for train layouts for me on custom layouts and things along those lines .
Bernie
The crossing over of power supplied makes more sense if you are active in RC already.
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge. I did RC too, there was waiting involved.; battery charging....more like battery management, is a maintenance chore same as track cleaning.
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge...my partner never charged the drills....
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge....Dead batteries Even.before common rechargeables, dead batteries sucked then too... I don't want to wait on a battery.
I wouldn't be opposed to a couple batt. ops, in the operation, but not as main source, same as I keep a drill with a cord on it to back up the cordless drills....which by the way all need batteries again. This will be the third set for the Dewalt.
As a way to battle track conductivity outside batteries can't beat. That has to be the #1 issue for outdoor modeling so the application fits perfect.
But I don't need it indoors. 2 wires per track, 3per turnout, 1 extra for tmcc.. Minus the tmcc, I did this pre school, so seriously..how is it complicated?
Maybe chasing some tmcc issues can be complicated? That is luck of the draw though. I'd have to think the tmcc would like the smooth batt. dc most of the time. As long as there is no need for -3 -5v or -12v on the boards, like some manufactures need I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work. Some strange capacitance issue?
Old track? Nice new tubular O oval about $35- $50 from Menards.
Where I'd like one battery op. loco, is on a recovery switcher, just for minor derailment and yard work, helper service on a grade.
When the "inevitable" "Y-U -batteries 2K" hits I'll be adding rail shoes and bridge rectifier and some filtering and those batteries will provide a capacitors duty.
Indusrtial mini pneumatic cylinders try Bimba and Mac with low volt electric solinoid and/or manual valving. Not "easier", but strong, slow, soft movement and fine control, and snap action both are there with pneumatics. It's pressure&flow both having adjustability make it nice to deal with. Tweaking is easy, but needed often.....I still just look at slower gear motors and newer rc servo motors if Tortoise wasn't getting it done for some reason.
The www.cherelvalleyrailroad.com is 98% controlled switches using Del Air and have found only 1 time a bad air toggle. If you might need something I have some extra parts. There is a link on my web site.
Gary G
l
Bernie,
Thanks for mentioning your friend Tom. I e mailed him and said I would purchase 10 of them. Hope he still does them.
Also, anyone know of cheap DCC sound systems?
Ron H
From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Remote shopping, while entirely feasible, will flop.” -Time magazine, 1968
“I predict the internet will soon go spectacularly super nova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” -Robert Metcalfe, inventor of Ethernet, in InfoWorld magazine, December 1995
“The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty---a fad.” -The president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903
“The ‘telephone’ has too many serious shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” -William Orton, president of Western Union, in 1876, when Alexander Graham Bell tried to sell the company his invention.
“Fooling around with AC power is just a waste of time. Nobody will ever use it, ever.” -Thomas Edison, 1889. The light bulb inventor insisted his own direct current (DC) system was superior to competitor George Westinghouse's AC power, and took every opportunity to discredit alternating current.
“Y2K is a crisis without precedent in human history.” -Byte magazine editor Edmund DeJesus, 1998
“Next Christmas the iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.” -Alan Sugar, 2005
“Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.” -Popular Mechanics, 1949
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
“There is no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance.” -Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, 2007
Like I said earlier, working in a candy store (LHS) and seeing the growth/incorporation of otherwise mundane technology....batteries..., and micro-motors using rare-earth or brushless technologies tends to give a different perspective on what the future of trains running on powered 3-rail track might morph into has been a late-term epiphany.
And, at 72+ years with stiff joints, aching muscles, and a bald, vulnerable head, spending a weekend under a layout doing some track wiring.....only to find 3 days later that I had tapped into the wrong buss wire resulting in things not working properly!!!!!(
)...I am ALWAYS receptive to considering something more along the K.I.S.S. Principle. I mean, I once gloated over the 'advantage' of 3-rail over 2-rail for dealing with conflicting polarities within reverse-loops, wyes, etc.. How short-sighted....a.k.a., dumb....is that?
Battery power......probably not a panacea. But it's going to be fun seeing it perhaps cause a few tremors in the model railroading hobby. You know....something besides a coin-operated pacemaker to keep the heart palpitating.
Semi-annual ho-hum catalogs/content don't cut it, lately.
Yes thanks Bernie I have also sent an e-mail to Tom, I assume that the board could also be used to power TMCC from the rails, two rails that is, on DC. I seem to remember Lionel did S scale TMCC on DC ? cTr...( Choose the Right )
Stephen Bloy posted:Yes thanks Bernie I have also sent an e-mail to Tom, I assume that the board could also be used to power TMCC from the rails, two rails that is, on DC. I seem to remember Lionel did S scale TMCC on DC ? cTr...( Choose the Right )
Unfortunately Tom's system is not going to work for me as I want everything inside a tender and there is not enough room for the TMCC and his boards and a battery. Will sell the ERR units.
dkdkrd posted:From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
Well, that one turned out to be correct.
Ron My thinking was that if it couldn't be installed in the tender, at least I could get some of my sunset steamers running, one unit installed behind a loco in cars with removable roofs, so the devise can be swapped from car to car for verity, would be a start. No stripping out electronics, no two rail conversions for the moment. I could also install some of these points, shown in the S scale part of the forum, closed frog, I remember an article in MR, still we will see. cTr... ( Choose the Right ) 
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dkdkrd posted:From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Remote shopping, while entirely feasible, will flop.” -Time magazine, 1968
“I predict the internet will soon go spectacularly super nova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” -Robert Metcalfe, inventor of Ethernet, in InfoWorld magazine, December 1995
“The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty---a fad.” -The president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903
“The ‘telephone’ has too many serious shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” -William Orton, president of Western Union, in 1876, when Alexander Graham Bell tried to sell the company his invention.
“Fooling around with AC power is just a waste of time. Nobody will ever use it, ever.” -Thomas Edison, 1889. The light bulb inventor insisted his own direct current (DC) system was superior to competitor George Westinghouse's AC power, and took every opportunity to discredit alternating current.
“Y2K is a crisis without precedent in human history.” -Byte magazine editor Edmund DeJesus, 1998
“Next Christmas the iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.” -Alan Sugar, 2005
“Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.” -Popular Mechanics, 1949
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
“There is no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance.” -Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, 2007
Some notable "next big thing" flops that come to mind:
- RCA Video Discs
- Disposable Rental DVD's
- Quadraphonic Home Stereo
- 3D Television
Rusty
After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long. Is this analogy valid? It does make me think....
I see pros and cons to this system. It's not for everyone but I think it will have some value in niche markets and applications.
Battery and Motor technology has come a long way in recent years. I can remember in our shop the only way to take tires off of our trucks & tractors was with air impact wrenches. The thought of a cordless impact wrench was a just a dream. Now today, the air impact tools rarely get used and the cordless impacts get used everyday.
I do agree, I'm not a fan of batteries dying while operating my layout and having to charge batteries in trains. Not to mention I really hated replacing batteries in my Lionel & MTH engines and was very happy when battery replacements (Super Capacitors) were introduced as an alternative. So in one way, this system is a step backward in this regard.
When I think about everything on my layout that needs power to operate, the track wiring becomes a small piece of the puzzle in the grand scheme of things. Accessories, track side operations, multiple buildings, & switches still need wiring.
Another concern is cheap batteries and cheap chargers. I've personally seen quality lithium laptop batteries self destruct and do considerable damage to the laptop and furniture it was on while charging. I would never charge these batteries unattended and even then, rechargeable lithium batteries can be dangerous while in use (Samsung Galaxy Note 7). My dad's cell phone burned a hole in his jeans because of a battery failure.
I do like the idea of portable indoor and outdoor layouts that don't need any wiring. This would be so simple to set and tear down. Not mention you can run in environments where an outlet is not readily available.
For me, I like my smoke units and full feature sound coming from the loco. The idea of waiting for batteries to charge, wondering how much charge is left or if a battery is still healthy kind of takes the fun out running my trains. And as I said earlier, maintaining and replacing batteries was something I was happy to get away from.
But just because this system doesn't suite me doesn't mean it should just go away. I'd still like to see this technology receive further development. It may fit the bill for others and how they like to operate trains!
Of course it won't be for everyone. O Scale isn't either.
But all you have to do is look at kid's toys - cars and trucks that not only have speed control but also proportional steering, and note that you get motor, servos, RC equipment, and maybe the first set of batteries for under $40. Not to mention the model itself. Of course they do have economies of scale.
That tells me that this little niche of the O Scale hobby could easily take off now, with current technology. I expect it within two years.
bob2 posted:Of course it won't be for everyone. O Scale isn't either.
But all you have to do is look at kid's toys - cars and trucks that not only have speed control but also proportional steering, and note that you get motor, servos, RC equipment, and maybe the first set of batteries for under $40. Not to mention the model itself. Of course they do have economies of scale.
That tells me that this little niche of the O Scale hobby could easily take off now, with current technology. I expect it within two years.
Also, that RC car has a lightweight, plastic body that with little to no free standing detail over a generic chassis with oversize tires that bears little resemblance to the real thing and isn't expected to pull anything.
RC cars are expected to run fast and bounce off of things. Kids (or their parents) don't buy these things to simulate a trip to the grocery store.
Rusty
I operate the Carbondale by myself and I don't need more than 2.5 to 3 hours runtime as I basically interchange 2 Santa Fe passenger trains with 2 NYC passenger trains. So 4 passenger trains making maybe 4 loops and then broken down and made up with a change of locomotives. So the locos need to come from the ready track make 3 or 4 loops and then back to the barn. One freight comes in with replenishments, coal oil, fuel and some basics for the locomotive yards. The hardest working locomotive is the switcher. Occasionally a cab forward rolls in with an emergency refrigerated train to be iced, broken up and sent via the ATSF to Chicago and the NYC to the east coast.
Why the SP cab forward you ask? Because I have one and love it.
As one can see an operating session doesn't require a lot of run time for the locos. About 2 hours of playing is all I can mentally handle and then I'm on to something else. Rc will work great for my needs.
A big advantage is I can run a locomotive on 3 rail or 2 rail anywhere in the US on any club's layout should the occasion arise.
a problem I see with battery is that if the train or engine derails a battery powered engine will not stop running. with track power if the train or engine derails it stops because of the short circuit that almost always results. this is like a built in E-stop. with battery powered engines it will just keep running after a derailment which could result in a disaster.
I still dont see how I can fit a sound decoder, speaker and battery in my 44 tonner.
Michael Hokkanen posted:After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long.
Is this analogy valid?
I think your analogy is VERY valid. I feel the same way about rechargeable drills and such. I don't usually have several hours to charge one before I use it and I've yet to see one that has as good torque as a corded one. I have three cordless drill that I have never used since I bought a corded one which works way better than any of them, and cost less than half the price.
As for trains, sure, the tracks are the Achilles heel in model railroading. But at least when I flip the switch, the locomotives will run until I flip off that same switch, no matter how long that might be.
Here is the ATSF starting a fairly heavy train. Just the tiniest bit of wheel slip as I laid into the throttle too hard once it stated moving.. I judge I can add four more heavyweights or 10 or 12 freight cars to this train. A little wheel slip starting a heavier train would be cool. She is pulling 6 GGD heavyweights and 10 freight cars of which 4 are brass antiques. When I bought this brass Mikado years ago I updated it with a good size new Pittman motor. It is geared really low and tops out at maybe 45 scale mph.
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p51 posted:Michael Hokkanen posted:After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long.
Is this analogy valid?
I think your analogy is VERY valid. I feel the same way about rechargeable drills and such. I don't usually have several hours to charge one before I use it and I've yet to see one that has as good torque as a corded one. I have three cordless drill that I have never used since I bought a corded one which works way better than any of them, and cost less than half the price.
As for trains, sure, the tracks are the Achilles heel in model railroading. But at least when I flip the switch, the locomotives will run until I flip off that same switch, no matter how long that might be.
I use Milwaukee lithium battery drill drivers and never have had an issue. The batteries stay charged for months of non use and since I have a couple, I've always got a battery well charged. If I exhaust one, there's always one in the charger. The Milwaukee drivers, and other tools of the same type use the same batteries. They build houses with these things and they don't lose a minute with them.
I don't like filling my car up with gasoline. It would be far easier if it were electric and I had a very long extension cord.
I find the cordless fan handy
I am old enough to remember when all we had was plug it in the wall power tools. I find the Makita vastly superior - was using it this afternoon to put clamps on my pushrod tubes. Really convenient.
I realize that model cars are not trains, and that a $30 system will not happen. However, a $100 setup is not beyond the imagination. Just wait.
Bob My hudson definitely cost less than $100 to set up, I do already have a smart device. The batteries can handle the power loads we use easily. I still use track power, however I do plan to have maybe four power packs, that can be exchanged in and out of some of my loco's, it works great for older outside 3 rail models, I can just run them dead rail. cTr.... (Choose the Right )
What about small to medium size diesels, is there room under the shell for the sounds and the battery packs ?
clem k posted:What about small to medium size diesels, is there room under the shell for the sounds and the battery packs ?
Yes Clem. Very small gear available. Hobbyking has really small high powered batteries.
If the guys in HO can run, batteries and sound, so can we!! You can use a single cell Lipo or Lithium ion, and a buck up converter, or voltage converter, for small situations. I experimented with this in an Atlas F9 cTr.... ( Choose the Right )
I have a Dewalt cordless driver/drill which is very good for most of my casual use (with extra battery in the charger). On the other hand, I won't give up my heavy-duty corded Milwaukee Sawzall, because it delivers all the power I want for as long as I want! The hassle of an extension cord is a relatively small price to pay for this advantage.
My biggest concern would be derailments caused by inattentive engineers running through an open turnout (or worse still into an open lift out section) . Having a highly detailed/painted brass locomotive running on its side is not a pleasant thought. A friend who runs battery RC did have a locomotive hit the floor.
A major plus for dead rail is that protype signaling becomes far easier to wire. (The same signaling advantage exists with 3 rail, but at the expense of appearance) .
Quite a few positives for dead rail, but several negatives to think about include
- Cost factors due to scaleability (eg battery gear in each A-B-A unit)
- Available space in small locomotives (tank locomotives, GE 44 toners)
- Charge management/logistics across a large roster of locomotives before an operating session
- Safe recharging
- And operational issue #1 - wrecks
Those with good running "wired" railroads may want to consider adding a battery powered locomotive just to learn about new stuff. While I'm personally too invested in 2 rail ( and too old) to consider dead rail, it will be interesting to follow its impact on the hobby. If it can attract some new adherents to O scale it all to the good.
B Smith posted:I have a Dewalt cordless driver/drill which is very good for most of my casual use (with extra battery in the charger). On the other hand, I won't give up my heavy-duty corded Milwaukee Sawzall, because it delivers all the power I want for as long as I want! The hassle of an extension cord is a relatively small price to pay for this advantage.
I bought the biggest sized Milwaukee Sawzall and found it pretty much ok for 4 inch logs, etc. But the battery did need to be changed.
Guys, enough about power tools.
Ron
Most of the comments/problems I've seen can be applied/compared to any of the current systems used to run trains. No matter what system you use it's difficult getting them inside a small engine.
The biggest obstacle I see is that not one manufacturer offers a BPRC O-scale engine at present. I would be surprised if Bachmann doesn't offer something soon. Presently the individual has to buy and wire up their system of choice, or pay someone to do it.
I use Bluerail trains and Deltang boards and have had mainly solid performance with them. The Bluerail board is only 2amps (Deltang can be 3 or 6amps) and does "brown out" once in a while, I find I have to actually control how I move the throttle so the engine doesn't stall at startup when pulling a heavy train. A larger amp board will fix that.
Going on 3 years now with zero battery problems. NiMh and LiPo batteries don't run down like Nicads do and charging them inside my 14 BPRC O-scale engines has not posed a problem. I also have a Bachmann G-scale 4-6-0 with the Bluerail board install and works fine. I only have 6 engines with DCS or TMCC installed and plan on converting them soon.
A 2000Mah battery normally takes 2 hours to charge with a 1amp charger. If you want faster charge times, go with a smaller battery or swap batteries out. I've got some 1/16 RC tanks that use 2000-3000Mah LiPo batteries and the charging unit is simple compared to the ones I use with my trains. I have left batteries on the charger overnight (forgot about them!!!) without any issues.
I did charge all 15 engines the other day, I keep a log of when I charge them.
Wrecks are no more worrisome running BPRC than any other system, at least i don't get the arcing and sparking I use to get with all that wattage going down the rails, so that makes it better IMO.
Myself and others have posted frequently about our efforts, just do a search on BPRC.
Remember...the older DCS and TMCC engines also have batteries in them too
Bob Delbridge posted:I did charge all 15 engines the other day, I keep a log of when I charge them.
That sounds too much like work...
Rusty
Rusty, no biggie. Went upstairs every 2 hours to swap them out on the chargers. Had 3 going at a time so took 1/2 day. Pick a rainy indoors type of day and you're all set 
Of course I didn't HAVE to do all 15, but I thought I'd start off fresh. Folks have reported leaving them on the shelf for almost a full year without having to be recharged. I wonder how long these batteries sit on store shelves without getting recharged??? I get mine from All-Battery in CA, they are usually cheaper online thru Amazon/Ebay than direct from their warehouse (approx $15).
Bob Delbridge posted:Remember...the older DCS and TMCC engines also have batteries in them too
NOT MINE! I replace all my engine batteries with Super Capacitors.
I use an I-charger 106b, a sophisticated computerized charger which permits charging at 5 amps or greater,,, safely. A good Lipo battery takes about 12 to 15 minutes.
Also, use a Lilon charger for Lilon batteries.
I use separate ac to dc transformer to supply 12 to 15 volts DC. this decision to convert was very easy for me, because I have so much gear. For others maybe not so easy.
Next locomotive for conversion is a Pecos River early model ATSF Hudson.
It seems most of the concern here is about battery charge time. With the lipo batteries that most here are using these batteries will charge in less than thirty minutes with a proper lipo charger. I'm an RC veteran with over thirty giant scale airplanes and half my planes are battery powered. With that said it pains me that there's been no mention of battery safety here.
Lipos are time bombs if you drop one on the floor or something happens to your charger or cell balancer.
I would never leave a lipo in a train unattended. My lipos stay locked in a steel 50 Cal ammo box and the ammo box stays inside an old wood heater with fire brick. Also I never charge my lipos unattended. I always have them in my sight when charging them. when they're charged I either put them in a plane and fly or they go back in the steel box.
The reason I keep the ammo box in an old cast wood heater is because one three cell lipo can blow a steel 50 Cal ammo can apart and shoot five foot flames like a blow torch. Don't ask me how I know this.
Lipos do what we rc'ers call puffing. No matter how well you handle them or take care of them they start to swell or "puff" over time. Lipos usually need to be discarded about every two years even though they still hold a good charge they'll be swollen up round like a basketball. Before discarding I always cut off both battery leads and drop the battery in a five gallon bucket of salt water for about a day to truly kill the battery. Otherwise it may burn the recycle center down when they crush it and the cells short.
Lipos have great power but with great power comes greater responsibility.
Tom
Bob - I differ with your comments about derailment/wreck issues. In general practice we don't have "non-derailing " turnouts in 2 rail O scale. With powered frogs a locomotive running into a mis-aligned turnout will stop before reaching the points - no derailment. During operating sessions this at times does happen due to inattentive crew - annoying but harmless. Those with lift sections providing no duck access to the train room will have added risk of trains hitting the floor using RC battery operations. With powered rails micro switches can be used to to kill juice to the tracks approaching the lift section when it is open. The factors I mention were not designed to knock dead rail - but to point out there are other factors to be considered in making the decision beyond the pluses associated with minimal wiring. .
Tom,
It's true one has to use common sense and practice safety with the lipos. I've used them sense they came out. I dumb thumbed one of my pattern planes into a high speed dive into the turf. The lipo packs blew up and burned the plane down to ashes by the time we get to it. Also in national rc car racing I have had a crash create a battery fire.
The question of suitability of battery powered locos is a non-issue. For the past year I've been running three battery powered bluetooth equipped diesels, a GP-9, a RS-3 and a NW-2. Operating modes include precise forward and reverse speed control, controllable front & rear headlights, ditch lights and sound. Performance is flawless, especially at low speed. All three locos can be run simultaneously. Operating distance is over 100 feet. These locos have been demonstrated at various club meets with high interest by the attendees. Detailed steps for the conversion of a conventional power loco to battery power were outlined in my article in the December 2016 O Gauge Railroading magazine. Would be happy to discuss further with anyone interested.
Ed,
No problem. I have no wiring to my layout and forget that others do (like powered turnouts and lighting).
We all know we have to be careful when running our trains. Whether they have DCS, TMCC, DCC, or BPRC, there's certain things that must be considered.
The BIG attraction for me was NO TRACK WIRING. Working in and around electronics for over 30 years with the Navy, not having to worry about wiring is a plus
After seeing/operating your layout I can't see how it could be run without the system you have.
I think battery power is here to stay. Not sure if the manufacturers will buy in to it. Perhaps leave it for the retro guys. For me though, at my age I’ll stay with track wiring. It gives me a feeling of accomplishment when complete.
Rod Miller
Look at this article about batteries made with asphalt!!!:
I like the idea of going "Dead Rail", but like others here I question the practicality of having a roster of engines that all need recharged. You would need to power certain tracks that the engines sit on to basically create "charge tracks". You also need to make sure that you have an appropriately sized charger capable of the max possible load. Also, depending on they type of batteries you use this could be potentially a fire hazard. I've been using LiPo batteries for years in RC planes and the accepted method of charging is to NEVER leave them to charge unattended. Other battery chemistries like LiFePo4 are much safer. These are the batteries that you usually get in a Dewalt drill for instance. They are larger and heavier than LiPo cells, but for our trains that shouldn't be a problem. They do not experience 'thermal runaway' and don't have the tendency to catch fire and explode like Lipos can.
My personal problem is that most Dead Rail systems don't have sound and smoke. I have no interest in that. I had an RC controlled Bachmann G scale engine 30 years ago, so it isn't exactly cutting edge tech. Also, if I don't have sound and smoke I don't want to run the trains. It can be done, but not many do. I like what Ring Engineering has done with their RailPro system. They make Dead Rail very simple in the smaller scales. Maybe they will offer a larger decoder that could work in O? Still, you have to gut your engines and wire in the new system no matter what you do.
I think (hope) that Lionel is heading towards some form of a battery option in the future. Now that they are putting Bluetooth into all their engines it wouldn't be all that much of a stretch to offer a battery option. It might be wishful thinking, but it is technically feasible.
IF I had my wish Lionel would offer a battery powered option for each engine and a new 2 rail high rail track system for them to operate on. The ONLY reason that I still buy 3 rail is that there is no better option from Lionel, and since they have the best sounds on the market I'm stuck. I was really tempted to build my own 2 rail high rail layout with MTH Hi-Rail Proto 3/2 engines, but Lionel's sounds are too good to pass up for me. I HATE the 3rd rail though so as soon as there is a 2 rail option from Lionel I will jump on it. I would even buy the same models over again just to get away from the 3rd rail.
That's just me though...
Some of you guys are drastically over thinking charging and are mentally creating a problem where none exists. In regards to derailments, get some better track work in place. The only time I've ever had derailment problems was in n scale. It was a combination of wheel gauge and poor track work at switches. If you are converting a 3 rail engine with deep flanges over to battery power, you've got zero excuses for derailment. None! Your layout is very poorly done if that's an issue and I won't for a second accept the lack of non derailing switches as an excuse. Scale wheels shouldn't have any issues either. Derailments may not be impossible but they should be so few and far between that it's considered a non issue.
Sound installation coming up. Stay tuned.
In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped loco? And since I rarely run anything for more than an hour at a time, if I could get a 2 hour run time, charging would never be an obstacle for me.
I may be wrong, but I think TMCC and DCS need certain triggers from AC to make some things work.
In my Williams E7 I have the BlueRail board and a 2" GEMS bluetooth speaker installed for onboard sound (sound is in the BlueRail but comes out of the Ipad). With the bluetooth speaker I just make sure my Ipad "sees" it and the sound then comes out of the engine. Could probably put a smaller speaker in for use in a smaller engine.
Less than 1/2 of my engines are equipped with LiPo batteries, so far no trouble charging them in the engine/tender.
I've got a couple of 1/16 tanks with LiPo batteries in them. The chargers are CHEAP (made) compared to the one I have for my trains and have had no issues with them either. Charging at 1amp/hr vice fast charging is the answer. All my others have NiMh batteries. All my engines have modern can motors, brushed.
I get 2-1/2 hours of run time, course I don't run them flat out either. I either use the 4-wire connector that came with the Williams engines or the 10-wire straight connectors that MTH sells for my steam engines. On diesels I just run the wires from the motor and lights to the board I'm using.
There's a few videos around of some of my engines and those of Bob Walker.
necrails posted:In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped
It can be done. That's what I wanted to do with all my TMCC locos. About 10 of them,,,However, The TMCC requires AC power at 60khz and this requires a miniature DC to AC inverter to convert the battery power to AC and I cannot find anything miniaturized and ready to go. I would probably have to have an engineer design one and have it built for me. I'll be selling my Tmcc units shortly. The conversion costs to RC are about $200 per loco with sound.
Ron H posted:necrails posted:In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped
It can be done. That's what I wanted to do with all my TMCC locos. About 10 of them,,,However, The TMCC requires AC power at 60khz and this requires a miniature DC to AC inverter to convert the battery power to AC and I cannot find anything miniaturized and ready to go. I would probably have to have an engineer design one and have it built for me. I'll be selling my Tmcc units shortly. The conversion costs to RC are about $200 per loco with sound.
Yep, the DC/AC inverter is the problem. Lionel has the ability to make legacy boards that accept DC input. The American Flyer Legacy engines will run on DC power. They have not done that in O scale yet to my knowledge.
With all due respect Fred, please explain how I am creating an issue where there is none? I have battery powered tools, computers, tablets, headphones, hands-free devices, phones, flashlights, RC boats, RC cars, and RC planes in my house and it never fails that when I want to use one of them they aren't charged. The thought of keeping several dozen engines charged doesn't sound like fun to me. I would do it if it meant running on 2 rail track, but until battery technology progresses to the point where I can run for many hours on a charge and I can safely charge unattended, I still prefer track power.
Like Bob Delbridge, two of my three battery powered locos have on-board sound. A small bluetooth amplifier PC board and a decent size speaker (2-21/2") fit easily into the locos and work well. The sound is controlled by the BlueRail app in my iPad and can be switched between diesel and steam.
As an easier alternate, a complete small bluetooth speaker chassis can be installed in a trailing tender/boxcar/toolcar. I've done this and works just as well.
I don't use Lipo batteries. I use old-fashioned rechargeable gel cells (lead-acid) as used in alarm systems, back-up computer power supplies and exit lights. They are the gel equivalent, in charging and performance, of automotive wet cells.
I don't do much switching on my little railroad; I just watch the trains go through the scenes. I'm sure that all of you will agree that most MU consists of Diesels have at least one unpowered B unit, most freight trains have a boxcar, and most passenger trains have a baggage car. That's where my batteries are installed. These cars feed power to the locomotives via flexible tether wires. I rotate several of them in and out of my train sets, when they run down.
I have a recharging track, where the switcher spots the battery cars, and the little workers plug in a two conductor lead with a coaxial connector, as found on wall-warts, that recharges the batteries. The charger is mounted under the table. It's only turned on when I'm in the room, or close by. Simple.
Are you folks aware of battery remote control systems like Locolinc and Airwire? They are designed to do exactly what you've been discussing on this thread:
https://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_system.php
You don't need a DC-to-AC inverter or any exotic technology. In fact, if you build a simple circuit consisting of a rectifier, capacitor, and maybe a Zener diode to cap the voltage, I'm pretty sure you could use these systems with AC track power too. They can be installed in any can-motored loco with or without a flywheel, and make use of speed control via back-EMF (like ERR's Cruise Commander.) Airwire in particular is aimed at G-gauge so it should have ample current capacity for O gauge.
The RC is direct to the loco (there is no "command base" to buy), and I'm pretty sure the loco can be set to keep going when the signal is lost, such as might happen on long bridges or "chicken wire" tunnels. No more problems with too much or too little earth ground. No more "check track" or "RF out of range" errors! About the only disadvantage I can think of to this approach, is that because there is no central command base, it's more difficult to create a computer-controlled, fully-automated operation as you might with Lionel's Layout Control System (LCS.)
If I win the lottery and buy Roadside America, I would let my visitors run the trains using one of these systems! Also, New Jersey Hi-Railers: have you thought about this approach?
With regard to battery type, when I built my first battery powered loco in 2014, I used a 2000mah NiMH battery on a trailing car. It worked fine, is not as fussy as LiPo, but would not easily fit in a GP-9 or RS-3 shell. I switched to LiPo (1300mah) so I could get the battery on-board the locos. I provided small jacks conveniently located for recharging. I am careful to monitor the recharging current when recharging. So far, everything works fine.
If you are looking for a neat wireless control system, check out BlueRailTrains website. It also contains info on running from AC track voltage and providing regulated DC voltage to the control system.
"Airwire in particular is aimed at G-gauge so it should have ample current capacity for O gauge."
Well...not exactly. O gauge is admittedly smaller than G gauge, but the amperage use is not proportionate to the size. Most modern (last 30 years) G gauge trains use very efficient can motors or equivalent. These use very modest amounts of current. Traditional O gauge (Lionel and clones) with series-wound motors use quite a bit of current when starting.
I'm using airwire rc systems and soundtrax sound.
I know this is repeated in the 3-rail scale forum, but 2- rail has for decades used more efficient can motors with rar earth magnets, silver graphite brushes, and ball bearings.
I long ago sold or gave away most of my series-wound motors, and now use only Pittman 8x2y motors (x and y vary). One amp or less.
I contacted Bernie's friend Tom, he was very friendly, and then I don't know what happened? I was wondering if a 'Joule Thief' setup, could be used to power TMCC engines from batteries? cTr...( Choose the Right )
Ron,
That's about the type of derailments I had, train kept moving with no ill effect.
I haven't had but 3-4 derailments, just have to make sure the switch is thrown when it's suppose to be. No harm to the circuit board, battery, or engine.
I toasted one of the circuit boards in an 1/16 RC tank I have and it worked for a while, but now the main gun doesn't elevate anymore. Pretty amazing since 2 components actually fell off the board 
BPRC is no more problematic than DCS or TMCC, in my experience it has been rock steady. I read all the problems folks have with current command control systems and all the in-fighting and BS-slinging that seems to go along with it...I'm glad to be using the system I have
Real test is going to be moving from converted 3-rail (Gargraves/Ross) to 2-rail code 148 (Micro-Engineering), while keeping the hi-rail flanged wheels. So far my test have been successful but I won't be satisfied until I get the mainline down and trains running.
Neato
