The other day I decided to crank up my DC Trainpower 6200 and run one of my favorite locomotives the JEP C-C 7001. Yes, I know it's diecast and not pure tinplate, but it is pulling a beautiful tinplate Wagons Lits train. What I discovered was that the tinplate coaches are virtually identical to the Hungarian Mint Co PV MAV coaches. MAV stands for the Hungarian railway system (Hungarian is a brutal language) and the PV is for the Pioneer Express. Here are the photos including a new "cabinet" photo showing the complete train on the lowest shelf.
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THAT is one very cool loco! VERY nice! :-)
I expect Daniel to concur soon! :-)
What is the length (in inches) of that JEP loco?
Nice train Lew, so frenchy from the fifties. one of the best JEP loco.
Daniel: Did they come in different liveries besides the that nice two-tone green? Also length? THANKS! :-)
A classic indeed! Your JEP SNCF electric would be my choice if you were going to sell all the trains on the shelf above it! SNCF knew how to put on a class act and ran fast trains long before the TGV era, taking many speed records along the way.
Just take a look at the Top Quality of this locomotive. Makes a man wanna dump his plastic models in the nearest recycling bin and never give it a second thought!
Thanks for sharing!
Art, no different liveries. Just different shades of green. The bottom one is 1953, one year only; The middle one is rare also, just after 1954 and the top one is the most common one, just a variation with a one motor only but harder to find. The vast majority of those loco is two motors in 20 DC and they are very smooth runners.
BEAUTIFUL engines! THANKS for sharing!
Agree with Tinplate Art.
Those are really nice.
TINPLATE ART: It is 13.5 inches end of coupler to end of coupler, but really is more like12 inches long. Fits right in with Lionel semi-scale. Normally pulled the longer oval window coaches which I never liked, but I think it looks best pulling the lithographed Wagons Lits cars. Note the beautiful red postal van. As Fred reports it really is a smooth runner, but don't accidentally put AC current into it!!
I did some research on the wonderful SNCF C-C 7l00 locomotives and hope that those who have responded to my original post will find this information interesting.
1. The locomotive was 62 feet one inch long over the buffers. This would require an O scale locomotive to be slightly over 15 inches long. in fact the JEP locomotive is only 13 1/2 inches long over the couplers and somewhat less over the buffers. So, as I thought, the JEP version is really semi-scale, not scale. The JEP locomotive featured 2 AP5 20 volt DC motors.
2. Introduced in 1952, the locomotive was one of the best performers in the postwar era. It established a world's record of 205 mph in 1955. In contrast the USAs C-C General Electric E60CP , introduced 22 years later, proved to be a huge disappointment and was succeeded in 1980 by the excellent Swedish Meatball --the AEM-7. Although in the 1950s 1960s, and 1970s the USA was way ahead of the world in diesel electric technology, it proved to be woefully behind the French, Swiss, Swedish, German and even the British (Classes 86 and 87) in electric propulsion.
3. 58 C-C 7100 class locomotives were ultimately produced.
4. In 1957 the French introduced the BB-9200 series, their first venture into modern 4 axle high performance electric locomotives. Hornby was ready for them. In 1961 they introduced the TNB 20 volt DC B-B- diecast version of the B-B 9200. It is interesting to note that Hornby followed JEP by using 20 Volt DC in place of AC in this locomotive.
A wonderful source of information on early postwar electric locomotives is Ken Harris' World Electric locomotives published in 1981.
I've enjoyed this topic, especially the great photos you and David have posted. It really is a shame that JEP never introduced better passenger coaches postwar to supplement the hodgepodge of prewar cars offered and give their best locomotives some equally nice cars. I did get to wondering how some of the Marx streamlined coaches with the fluted sides, resprayed overall silver, would look with this locomotive......
A few minor points regarding the history of these machines:
- The JEP models are of the two prototypes, CC 7001/2, which were built in 1949/50. They were almost identical to the production 7100 class except for the trucks, and having windows in their cab doors.
- Actually BB9004 was the world record holder at 205 mph; the CC reached 'only' 202 !. SNCF just wanted to give the CC's, of which they had just purchased the 60, better publicity, so at that time they said they both reached the identical top speed.
And you can "almost legally" run these locos with the pan down; a handful of CC7100's also received third rail shoes for the line up to Modane for Italy, so just say your model is one of those in case any scale nitpickers come visiting......
Here are a few photographs I took in 1966, including the Sud Express and CC 7001 herself at Paris Austerlitz. In later years a heavy overhaul reduced their good looks somewhat.
Best regards, SZ
The JEP model is a great toy and many where made, today it is still sought after by collectors. Nice pictures of the real one. Here is a side by side JEP and a scale model from the same period. Even if underside the JEP is a nice representation of the model.
Fred or Daniel. I wonder if anyone made O Gauge models of the NS (Dutch) , RENFE (Spain), SNTF (Algerian), or ONCFM (Moroccan) versions of the CC-7100s? Three of the Spanish units were painted red and two shades of grey for handling Talgo express trains. I think that the NS is available in HO.
Lew, no other variations have been made in O gauge by JEP of the CC, only French model. Maybe that foreign market was too small, the end of O gauge trains was not far and maybe ? nobody thought about making those....
You are right Steinzeit, the JEP passenger cars are of a lower quality than the locos. In fact JEP has never produced a great variety of passenger cars, the all steel models are modernized version of the 1936 ones, just different bogies. Maybe the best looking ones are the last CIWL cars produced with black roof. once again they are a modernized car for the Golden Arrow of 1934. The body and roof is the same but presentation and bogies are the latest models. A set of steel passenger cars would have been nice to match with the CC7100. Marx cars are too small to go with a CC, the best size would be the Lionel fluted aluminum ones.
The last cars are here, two color variations, they are the best looking ones for me.
Daniel: Who made that beautiful scale version?
And those four coaches are stunning! :-)
Lew, the MAV cars is really nice. I have never find one...
Art, the scale model has been made from a kit of a French brand, KM108, in the fifties. They are brass and bronze models that you have to solder entirely yourself. This one has been made by a talented engineer and is the best one I ever founded many years ago. It is a three rail model but you could do the type you want.
And here is an unfinished model.
A kit when you bought it, this one is for a steam loco but it will geave you an idea of the work to do.... and you have to motorised the loco...
WOW! Obviously requires some skilled labor plus patience! Your completed model looks great! THANK YOU for sharing. Your CIWL custom build was also well crafted by you - at least no soldering as I recall!
When you posted this photo I guessed KM108, because of the superb side frames on the bogies.
About thirty years ago there was a KM108 CC14100 for sale at the York TCA meet which had been put together and finished extremely well; it was an exceptionally impressive model. I was very, VERY tempted to buy it, but for a few good reasons [ 3R, 25 kv vs 15 kV prototype] I didn't. And about 10 years ago I was given an MRS [ successor to KM108 I believe ] BB8500 kit and was asked to sell it at train meets; not surprisingly it found no takers so I think it went on Ebay and ended up in France where it belonged. I suppose I could have kept it and finished it as a BB20200 after I finish all the other model projects ahead of it, which should be in 2086 if I hurry......
In your opinion, how well would the 'short' [ 44 cm ] Munier cars work with the JEP loco ? I wonder if JEP thought they would fill the 'need' for better passenger cars.
Here are a pair of photos of those RENFE units in the TEE scheme Lew mentioned; these were taken in Barcelona in 1973. When not on TALGO duties they were used on conventional trains; notice one unit has single arm pans. Certainly colorful !
Best regards, SZ
Nice pics of the Spanish model SZ, we do not see them very often.
The CC14100 is a great model, I do not have one but maybe one day. Finding one at York is really uncommon, even in France they are rare. The main problem is that those engines where sold in kits and you have to be excellent at work to realise one. It is easy to find a kit but after having it completed is another problem.
The BB 8100 is also a very nice model, here is some pictures of mine. The first one to see the difference between the JEP and the KM108, toy versus scale model...
The short Munier passenger cars looks well with a CC, for me I use them with the BB as the loco needs less large curves than the CC which is in need of really large ones to be run. The short munier will run on 084 but no less and the space between the cars is relatively important.
Very best, Daniel
Hi Lew, hi all,
this is very nice thread, thank you. I also used to run some rather low end JEP trains, hence the autumn photo with the barrel cars. I'd also like to refine the naming explanation regarding the Hungarian PV trains.
So PV is an abbreviation for Mint. It was assigned to the State Mint in the 50s to produce toy trains, hence this naming. You know, those were very different, Soviet oriented times. Sometimes it used to be written as PéVé following how we used to say it, but on the trains only PV has been printed.
PV had 2 lines of trains, the "Elöre" which was the greeting of the Pioneers actually. The Elöre line consisted of the 4 wh. electric and the 4 wh. cars. A coach, a mail, a gondola, a tanker and a flat. The Elöre electrics were mainly green, but also a few dark red version exist. The mail cars and the coaches had various colors, depending on production stock.
The more advanced line was called "Pannonia", which was the Roman name of the western half of today Hungary, which belonged to the Roman Empire back then. The Pannonia line consisted of the 8 wh. electric, the 8 wh coach and the Elöre freight cars put on trucks in a "rude way", in order to look as 8 wh. cars too. An 8 wh. mail car was planned too, prototype photo is known, but it was never produced unfortunately. The Pannonia electrics were all green and the coaches were red, green or blue.
Regarding the similarities of the Pannonia and JEP coaches, the other photo shows a homemade conversion of a JEP combine into a PV-like combine. Trucks and buffers have been replaced.