Sand-cast Alco PA

bob2 posted:

i just discovered I have everything I need for an early CLW PA except the nose halves.  Check your junk boxes - $$ for a matched pair of nose castings.  I can fix butchered parts.

Send me a picture of what you need.  I will be at the Indy show next weekend and can take a look around for them.  Email is in my profile.  Let me know an idea of what you would be willing to pay.

Jim

All of mine are soldered together.  The castings are unmistakeable - two halves, with that strange ATSF spotlight cast above the windshield.  I have been paying  fifty bucks for a complete unit - but the parts I have are worthless without the nose.  I would go fifty for a nose pair and a roof casting.  Photos later.

Hello PA folks ..and Bob ...here are some photos of my two ...note differences in nose numbers boards and head number board....   were these casting differences ? ..Sorry Bob I do not have a loose nose .    The cast ones were first made for the Santa Fe ...and a set was used on the MSI layout ... in the late 40 's ..or was this part of Bob Smith's MSI rebuild in 1953 with the conversion to O gauge and new trains  ?...

Cheers Carey 

Yep. Those are they.  The full story is in a 1990 issue of OSN, and thumbnails have been published on forums.  Happy to do it again if you can’t find the interview Harmon and I did with Bob and Winnie Smith.

The NYC has been slightly modified with old number boards and searchlight filed off.  You could easily fix the windshield without messing up the unit - Bondo and a good file would be a good way to watch the News Hour.

Here are the photos of the parts I need.  The roof would enable one more B unit, even though I do not really need B units.  A truly damaged but complete A would be ok.

What a beautiful beast - I never tire of PA's....

Our roster has the D&RG 'Bumble Bee' and 'Aspen Leaf', Union Pacific, A.T.&S.F. and Delaware & Hudson

Would like to add GM&O, Pennsy DGLE and perhaps Southern when budget permits

Me too, Sam.  I have an ABA Overland in PRR red, a couple of MTH lost-plastic in both Bumblebee and Warbonnet, and a fleet of these doorstops which includes an ABA UP, an AB SP with snowplow, an AB PRR in Brunswick, a fantasy PA in B&O, and the one above that someday I want to nickel plate.

I need another doorstop PA a lot less than I need a mental heath professional to find out what this train obsession is doing to my synapses.

Still, wouldn't it be a shame to not pair up castings that have been inadvertently separated?  Another option is to wait until the Lionel bodies (possibly the most accurate) become a dime a dozen and have a nose "lost plasticked." (Is that a word?)

Bob,
I'll take a look at the show next week.  The funny thing is, I almost never end up buying anything for myself at shows, usually just things for other people.  That's mostly ok, there's less guilt involved spending other people's money .

Jim

Sorry, Bob, I didn't spot any PA parts.  It sounds like Carey spotted a full PA model, but I never saw that.  

There wasn't much at the show in the way of boxes of scrap parts.  It's interesting to me, because I felt the same way at the past Chicago show.  Normally you can't escape the stuff, but I haven't seen much of it at this year's shows.

Jim

Thanks ever so much for looking.  I built a PB with the roof, so now only have a virgin pair of PA sides.  They need to find their mates some day - but surely I have enough PAs already.

I meant to tell you, I'd suggest you get in touch with Keith Wiseman.  He used to show up at the Chicago meet with tables full of this type of stuff.  From conversations with him, he still has so much that he's not even sure what's there anymore.  It wouldn't surprise me if he had the pieces you're looking for.

So Carey W. What's with the Screws and the strip of brass? Is that a pre sanding repair job?

I hold mine together like that for soldering; then I file the screw heads off.  Those screws may have more to do with cab interior - but you can picture a pair of rods holding the nose halves together.

What brass strip?

Is Keith Wiseman the guy who sells so many small parts on eBay?

Love to find one of these to do up in NKP, would be lots of work, number boards, remove the seachlight scoop above the cab, second headlight on nose door.   Always loved the PA diesels.   

Bob, that's him. Wiseman Model Services.

Isn't as much work as you think.  The real work is jigging them up for soldering.  Number boards can be purchased, and held in place with screws while you solder.  Mars light is a darn hole, and that ATSF spotlight comes off with a Dremel disc.  Boom!

Thanks.  I will ask Keith.

Some day Bob, need to get busy on my SD9 project and the layout for it

I gotta admit:  I am surprised at the relative enthusiasm for doorstop PAs here.  Let me amuse you a bit more with some fairly good shots of my more accurate cast metal doorstops:

These two were done with MTH bodies - the first was provided free, with MTH aware of what I was doing.  I thought that was pretty nice of them.

The first is silicon bronze, cast with the "shell cast" method in an art foundry.  They did not quite understand what I was doing, so did not know the rivets, etc., were important.  Whole rows were ground off the finished product.  They were good enough to replace the metal and file it so it was close to what I wanted.  I am happy.

The second was done in Nickel Silver at K&D Foundry.  I had to cut the body in two pieces to fit the flask, then solder together after they were cast.

The secret to all this is called a "double burnout".  My father taught me that, and all it is - you leave the investment in the furnace twice as long as for wax.  All this was an honorable experiment.

Should you wish to do something like this, I recommend getting some sort of permission, since it is in effect copying someone else's artistry.  That's what I do, and it is always freely forthcoming.

Lionel is putting out some superb plastic Diesels - I hope some day to capture a shell or two and permission from them to convert to metal.  It is not cheap, but hey - it is a hobby, right?

Here is what the Lionel PA looks like - arguably the best body I have seen, maybe even better than the stunningly good MTH:

Bob, I've seen you talk of burning out plastic shells before. While you're on a roll, can you please give a brief description of how you take a plastic body through to a metal one?

In advance,  thank you.

Sure.  I don't do it.  I turn it over to a competent foundry.  My father taught jewelry making in Tucsson, and he did my first lost wax castings.

The foundry attaches the plastic body to a wax sprue (or multiples) and encases the entire thing in a high grade silica plaster.  When that sets, the plastic and wax is turned to ash in an oven.  Not sure, but I think it is 1100 degrees for 24 hours.

The cavity left is then filled with molten metal - sometimes under pressure or vacuum, but in the simplest cases by using a centrifuge.

When the metal starts to cool, the plaster is thrown into cold water.  The thermal shock splits the plaster, and - presto - a metal part.

This is an ancient process.  As I understand it, it has been done with wax for thousands of years.

Wikipedia probably knows more than I do about it.  And I bet Jay C knows more than me and Wiki combined.  Maybe he will chime in?

Thank you Bob.

I use 60/40 rosin core, but I flux with acid.  The acid bottle says "Stay Clean - Harris".  A simple propane torch with pencil burner tip works - takes about ten minutes to get it hot enough, then you work local areas - solder will flow along an inch of seam at a time with flame opposite the solder.

My solder came from Radio Shack.  I stocked up.  Try Amazon.

Hi Bob,

I just noticed your post and I have the exact CLW PA-1 Section 2 parts you need... a CLW PA-1 Body with both sides of the Cab Nose correctly soldered together.

The Cab Nose assembly is soldered to the main outer shell. 

There are no problems with solder gaps, scratches, tears, etc. to this unpolished and unmodified CLW set of parts.  I do not have the accessories pack nor trucks that came in the PA-1 Section 1 or Section 2 Kits...

Do you still need these CLW parts?  If so, please contact me offline...

Regards, Steve

Cincinnati, OH

Bob I see you thought the Lionel PAs as the best version so far, what do you think of the Sunset version of the PAs ? I assume the last run of the Key PAs represent the most detailed and accurate as they are rd name specific versions.

Steve - yes, interested.  I don't know how PM works here - can you try a PM on MTJ?  

Hibar - I can only assume the Sunset versions are accurate.  I have seen only photos.  Sunset has, like other suppliers, been pushed toward ever more realistic models.

Hi Bob,

OGR apparently will not let me send you a private email with my email address so please email me at sneago@yahoo.com  

This way, I can send you pics of my CLW PA-1 Shell to see if you are interested or if we could work out a trade of some sort...

Regards, Steve N

Milford, Ohio

Thanks Steve.  E-mail sent.

Sort of related, since I am still thinking of sand castings -

I just found out that Lionel did the E-7 about 12 years ago.  If indeed scale, I am hoping to find a damaged E-7B body for less than honorable purposes.  See my ad in "Wanted".

I am working on a plastic side, but it is tedious.  I have only one row of rivets glued on, and find myself doing almost anything to avoid opening a new tube of glue.  I might even pay real bucks to avoid the tedium.

The first shots will be in aluminum, but after that I plan to go back to bronze - see my Erie-Built project.

Update - still working on E7 sand castings.  They have been at the foundry for two years, and he may ship them to a different foundry.  Scott Mann sent me some plastic castings to cut up, and I am anxiously awaiting the aluminum and bronze results.  Well, patiently awaiting . . .

I'm sure Scott was more than happy to unload E7 shells.  I think there are still some miscellaneous "junker" parts from the first run in 2011 stuck in his warehouse.   Would love to see the results.

Bob, thanks for the update - I always love to see this type of work