Saturday Dealer Hall Hours & Public Admission Cost

In the Mar 2017 issue of CTT that I just received, Lou Palumbo writes in his monthly column, "Views From The Underground," that Saturday hours in the Dealer Halls will be extended to 4:00 pm.

Public admission to the Dealer Halls only will be $14 for one day per family or $20 for two days per family.

I'm assuming that Lou knows what he's talking about.

Your thoughts on how the extended Saturday hours will be accepted by the Dealer Hall vendors and is the Public Admission costs about what you expected?

Original Post

I'd guess the dealers will start packing up at 1 pm rather than the usual 11 am. $14. isn't bad for a entire family, but a bit steep for 1 person (a 2,000 table gun show costs $12. @). Time will tell.

I would still like to know how this will be advertised to the public. Looks like CTT readers got a heads up. 

Joe Hohmann posted:

I'd guess the dealers will start packing up at 1 pm rather than the usual 11 am. $14. isn't bad for a entire family, but a bit steep for 1 person (a 2,000 table gun show costs $12. @). Time will tell.

I would still like to know how this will be advertised to the public. Looks like CTT readers got a heads up. Joe? $14 is steep compared to $12?

Joe? $14 is steep compared to $12?

I haven't read the CTT article, but there seems to be a lot more details to iron out that hasn't been published yet. And we haven't heard much from the Eastern Division. That's where all the pertinent information will/should come from.

As far as the Saturday later closing time, I guess the dealers got what they asked for.  As an attendee I love it!

Brian

President, Chief Executive Officer

Penn American Railroad

"Serving the Basement"

 

Northern Central High Railers

Tri-State HiRailers

 

Eat, Sleep, Run Trains, Repeat !

Traindiesel posted:
Joe Hohmann posted:

I'd guess the dealers will start packing up at 1 pm rather than the usual 11 am. $14. isn't bad for a entire family, but a bit steep for 1 person (a 2,000 table gun show costs $12. @). Time will tell.

I would still like to know how this will be advertised to the public. Looks like CTT readers got a heads up. Joe? $14 is steep compared to $12?

Joe? $14 is steep compared to $12?

 

No, $14. for one person is steep vs $14. for a family. The only reason I mentioned $12. is that is the rate per person (forget "family" rates) to attend a HUGE gun show. It's sort of a mental thing..."why should I have to pay as much as an entire family?".

$14 for a family?
The upcoming show in Fishkill NY cost $7.00 per adult and $2.00 per child.
At the Springfield, MA show they charge for parking, and admission was $14 per adult per day, kids under 15 free.
The Great American Train shows charge $10 or more per adult, kids under 11 free.

What do other shows in Pennsylvania cost?

Seems to me that the Eastern Division isn't charging enough.
Then again, I have thought that the Eastern Division doesn't charge table holders or members enough either.

C.W. Burfle

Who asked for 4:00 on Saturday?  By the time the current Saturday closing rolls around, I'm pooped!

I think $14 / day is pretty steep, actually.  A show like Timonium is about half that and you're good for both days.  I think $10 for individuals and $15 per family would be attractive to the general public.  Remember that doesn't include entry to the member halls and I'm assuming the goal is to attract more TCA members.

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Since the only "advertising" seems to be a CTT editorial, admission price may be a moot point.

Well, so far. Maybe the TCA will advertise in the surrounding York area starting about a month before the meet? If not, then I agree with you it may be a moot point. 

Phil

TCA Member

NYCHS Member

MTH RR Club

Joe Hohmann posted:

Since the only "advertising" seems to be a CTT editorial, admission price may be a moot point.

If the meet is going to require advertising , then there should be an assessment applied to every table in the dealer halls. I think $100.00 per table would be a good number to start with . That way , the bigger dealers or the manufacturers ( who are behind the request that it be opened up to the public ) would be paying their fair share towards the costs to really advertise this heavily.  If some one dose not want to pay , then they can move into the members hall. Most of the big dealers and manufacturers already have a advertising budget built into their business model . If not ,they should . The E.D. already does a magnificent job with putting this meet together . You can not expect them to carry the entire load by themselves. Jim

Enjoy your life now . It comes with a expiration date .

TCA -00-52289  LLCA-25013

Summerdale Junction posted:
Joe Hohmann posted:

Since the only "advertising" seems to be a CTT editorial, admission price may be a moot point.

If the meet is going to require advertising , then there should be an assessment applied to every table in the dealer halls. I think $100.00 per table would be a good number to start with .

Forum members have held up the World's Greatest Hobby Show as a prime example of drawing big crowds. For the Philadelphia show, I was amazed at how many radio ads I heard. They also had ads in newspapers, and even a digital billboard on Rt. 422 (the main highway to the show in Oaks, PA). I'd love to know the $$$ spent on those! On the other hand, I'd hate to see 47,000 showing up at the York fairgrounds.

In my area, local shows are advertised no more than one or two weeks in advance. The Eastern Division has plenty of time.
Paid advertising is costly.
Our local shows do well with placing lawn signs all over the area the show is expected to draw from.
Problem with lawn signs: they have to be collected after the show.

A press release to all the local newspapers, radio, and TV stations is always a good idea, especially when it is written in a manner that can be published as received. Being that the TCA is non-profit, and pours money into the TCA museum, they have a good chance if getting free press if they play up the museum.

C.W. Burfle

I owned an advertising business for several years and understand how it all works. . Advertising will undoubtedly help build attendance BUT York is not a totally open meet but now a combo of a public vs private event.  You can be successful advertising it as such and opening the two dealer halls to the pubic can prove a positive but the restriction on days must be lifted. If you are trying to reach the public you must open both halls for the entire meet otherwise the effort will prove totally useless.  On the plus side if you open the two halls to the public, you may be able to increase memberships to the TCA from non-members that are curious about what goes on in the other 5 halls and want to shop there. I do not see a $14 public admission cost for a family as a big problem but it is a higher price than all the other trains shows.

 

Builder of the Hill Lines ( New Delta Lines). Recreating history for the model RR community.

 If you are trying to reach the public you must open both halls for the entire meet otherwise the effort will prove totally useless. 

We'll just have to disagree. All the Eastern Division needs to do is advertise the days/hours that it is open to the public. Next you will argue that the whole show has to be open to the public.
 

C.W. Burfle

Well, it does say on the cover of the flyer for the meet and I quote, "DEALER HALLS Open to Public". Emphasis on the plural of Halls but I couldn't find any specific information in the booklet. So I don't know if they mean the Orange and Purple Hall or the Orange and Black Hall (modular layout) or all three halls. 

I thought the public was allowed in the Black Hall. They most likely are. I think it would be silly not to allow the public in the Black Hall. 

Phil

TCA Member

NYCHS Member

MTH RR Club

Believe it or don't the Black hall has always been open to the public. News to 99.99% of the members but its true because its controlled by the restaurant next door and they determine its use.

All this talk about advertising, I would be surprised if many from the general public will show up. I think it will affect the members who dropped out or never joined the National TCA due to the high dues. I know half dozen people who are planning to go now that they don't have to pay the 50 bucks a year and they are all already familiar with York.

Pete

G3750 posted:

I think $14 / day is pretty steep, actually.  A show like Timonium is about half that and you're good for both days.  I think $10 for individuals and $15 per family would be attractive to the general public.  Remember that doesn't include entry to the member halls and I'm assuming the goal is to attract more TCA members.

George

Totally agree with this statement.  Maybe like local Gun Shows in Harrisburg,Pa., TCA will put coupons in the local papers for the General Public to save a buck or two?

Stay frosty my friends,

laz57

TCA 03-55991

C W Burfle posted:

 If you are trying to reach the public you must open both halls for the entire meet otherwise the effort will prove totally useless. 

We'll just have to disagree. All the Eastern Division needs to do is advertise the days/hours that it is open to the public. Next you will argue that the whole show has to be open to the public.
 

I assume with your statement that you have had many years working in the advertising business and with trade shows as I have. Putting out ads with a restriction on how people can attend an event to spend their money is a failing strategy.   Success results from inclusion not exclusion.  Statistics show that opening a show for three days to the public has shown better results than one open for two days.

On the other point, I am not going to lobby for the entire meet to be open to the public . York can successfully be run as two separate shows. Changing that is solely an ED decision but with time I do believe that it will happen. With time all things change and nothing stays the same

Yes we disagree but thank you for your kind, civil and courteous reply.

 

Builder of the Hill Lines ( New Delta Lines). Recreating history for the model RR community.

Whats so hard about advertising a 2 day train show.  If you don't advertise a third members only day then nobody knows.  It's not rocket science.  Advertise the open days.  Period.

Your images may be subject to Google Image Search.

MartyE posted:

Whats so hard about advertising a 2 day train show.  If you don't advertise a third members only day then nobody knows.  It's not rocket science.  Advertise the open days.  Period.

Agreed.  Someone in ED is going to have to prosecute this aggressively if they hope to boost the public's awareness and attendance.   Sticking up flyers somewhere isn't going to get it done. 

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

People are always going to complain, especially on an internet forum.  But at least now we know the topics of the OGR threads after this April York show regarding the new public admission policy.  It failed because of the high admission cost and it failed due to not enough advertising.  I think I even saw a hint of the third reason, TCA charges member dues.  The member dues usually pops up from people who don't belong to TCA.  It won't matter how many people attend from the public, we already know that the results will fall far short for some people on this forum.  

Many comments refer to the public not being aware of the York train show.  I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of the local people 25 yrs old and up do not know about the York train show.  It's also possible that they have real jobs as well.  Look at the percentage of retired age people on this forum or at a York train show. 

I can hazard a guess that there are many people in Indianapolis who don't attend the 500, or in Louisville who don't go to the Kentucky Derby.  

BTW, I don't go to shows for Dolls, Stamps, Guns, Cars, Fishing, Boating, Hunting, Antiques, Fashion, Interior Decorating, Art, Books, Records, Music, Racing, Home Improvements, HO including WGH, Cooking, Home Brewing, Fitness, or HSC.  I am aware, but I just don't go.   I do travel to York and local TCA shows and I do belong to the TCA in the Lone Star division.    It would be interesting to know what posters above are a TCA member, what division, and if they went to York at all in 2016.

I assume with your statement that you have had many years working in the advertising business and with trade shows as I have. Putting out ads with a restriction on how people can attend an event to spend their money is a failing strategy.   Success results from inclusion not exclusion.  Statistics show that opening a show for three days to the public has shown better results than one open for two days.

How much of your business was promoting public events?

Is the York meet a trade show?

I do have experience in this area.

As Marty wrote: "Whats so hard about advertising a 2 day train show.  If you don't advertise a third members only day then nobody knows.  It's not rocket science.  Advertise the open days.  Period."

C.W. Burfle
aussteve posted:

People are always going to complain, especially on an internet forum.  But at least now we know the topics of the OGR threads after this April York show regarding the new public admission policy.  It failed because of the high admission cost and it failed due to not enough advertising.  I think I even saw a hint of the third reason, TCA charges member dues.  The member dues usually pops up from people who don't belong to TCA.  It won't matter how many people attend from the public, we already know that the results will fall far short for some people on this forum.  

Many comments refer to the public not being aware of the York train show.  I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of the local people 25 yrs old and up do not know about the York train show.  It's also possible that they have real jobs as well.  Look at the percentage of retired age people on this forum or at a York train show. 

I can hazard a guess that there are many people in Indianapolis who don't attend the 500, or in Louisville who don't go to the Kentucky Derby.  

BTW, I don't go to shows for Dolls, Stamps, Guns, Cars, Fishing, Boating, Hunting, Antiques, Fashion, Interior Decorating, Art, Books, Records, Music, Racing, Home Improvements, HO including WGH, Cooking, Home Brewing, Fitness, or HSC.  I am aware, but I just don't go.   I do travel to York and local TCA shows and I do belong to the TCA in the Lone Star division.    It would be interesting to know what posters above are a TCA member, what division, and if they went to York at all in 2016.

I think you are a bit premature in both your prediction of low York attendance by non-TCA members and of the OGR threads that will / will not be discussed after this April's meet.

Why don't we just wait and see what actually happens, maybe follow the data?  (Boy, there's a thought)

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

aussteve posted:

It would be interesting to know what posters above are a TCA member, what division, and if they went to York at all in 2016.

Well, since you asked I have been a TCA member since 2001. I'm in the Metca Division about 3 hours away from York. I used to go to York once a year but since I hooked up with a friend 3 years ago who also likes going to York (he is also a TCA member) I have been to every York in the last 3 years. I have noticed a decline in attendance so I intend to keep attending until the meet is cancelled or changes in a way that it is no longer fun for me.

 

Phil

TCA Member

NYCHS Member

MTH RR Club

According to the "Early Registration" form i received a few days ago it says:

NEW: Dealer Halls Open to the Public Fri 9AM to 6:30 PM & Sat 9 AM to 4 PM.

Inside it says Member Halls close at 2 PM.

Obviously no information about costs to the public.

Larry

My first York was fall of '15. I'm 39, and moved to Harrisburg, PA in the summer of '13.  

I didn't really get into "O" gauge until the summer of '15. I only found out about York, because I went looking for information. I went as a "guest" for that first show.  I realize York is a "closed" show, but there were no signs or advertising that I saw. There was a brief item on the local news on Saturday evening, but they were highlighting a local club that was open to the public, specifically that weekend, "due to people in town for toy train show". I'll be interested to see if any of that shows up soon, and how far north they advertise. We have family in York, so are down there frequently. 

My work schedule has not allowed me to go Thursday or Friday since my first meet, and paying roughly $80 just to go on Saturday is not appealing to me . Don't get me wrong, I loved the show, but only getting half a day on two Saturdays a year is not a value for my money. 

I didn't grow up with pre/post war trains, so they are of no interest to me. That first show, I only found a few things in the member halls, everything else I purchased was from the Orange hall. 

For me, $14 for a day to talk with Andy from MTH or Steve (aka Mr.Muffin) is a value for my money!

CFO of the Progress and Linglestown Short Line RR. "Hauling nothing, nowhere, on time, everyday!" 

TCA Eastern Division's York Meet: Best train MEET on the planet for the O/S gauge crowd and TCA supporters (regardless of whether they consider themselves to be collectors or operators).

Definitely NOT the best train SHOW by any measure. That distinction would likely go to events such as Trainfest in Milwaukee, the NMRA National Train Show, and a number of other such events in the U.S. and in Europe.

Opening the York meet to the public will, in my considered opinion, have little impact aside from possibly decreasing TCA membership ranks over time. But greater minds than mine have debated the issue and determined the way they want to go.

I have thoroughly enjoyed every York Meet I have been privileged to attend over the years (even those with crummy weather), so I am content to let others worry about the event's future.

Allan Miller posted:

TCA Eastern Division's York Meet: Best train MEET on the planet for the O/S gauge crowd and TCA supporters (regardless of whether they consider themselves to be collectors or operators).

Definitely NOT the best train SHOW by any measure. That distinction would likely go to events such as Trainfest in Milwaukee, the NMRA National Train Show, and a number of other such events in the U.S. and in Europe.

Opening the York meet to the public will, in my considered opinion, have little impact aside from possibly decreasing TCA membership ranks over time. But greater minds than mine have debated the issue and determined the way they want to go.

I have thoroughly enjoyed every York Meet I have been privileged to attend over the years (even those with crummy weather), so I am content to let others worry about the event's future.

Pretty much agree Allan.  I don't think the "public" days will do much at all.  Whatever, I'll still have the same great time as always.

Your images may be subject to Google Image Search.

eddie g posted:

DAWKIL, Member halls close at 2PM SATURDAY.

Eddie, I suggest you contact the EDTCA and have them revise their documentation to agree with your facts.  BTW (By the way), the EDTCA put the Saturday hours in red, not me.

20170222_004413

And the new public admission disclaimer is on the front page of the registration booklet

20170222_004343

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aussteve posted:
eddie g posted:

DAWKIL, Member halls close at 2PM SATURDAY.

Eddie, I suggest you contact the EDTCA and have them revise their documentation to agree with your facts.  BTW (By the way), the EDTCA put the Saturday hours in red, not me..............

Eddie's statement in text matches the booklet pic exactly, not sure where the conflict is.

The member halls, do in fact close at 2 PM on Saturday.  (open later (5 PM), though not as late as dealer halls(6:30 PM), on Thursday and Friday)

The dealer halls close at 4 PM on Saturday.

The reason the dealer line for Saturday is red is because it's a change from the most recent previous meet.  All the other hours are the same.

-Dave

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C W Burfle posted:
 

As Marty wrote: "Whats so hard about advertising a 2 day train show.  If you don't advertise a third members only day then nobody knows.  It's not rocket science.  Advertise the open days.  Period."

The problem with advertising PART of your event as two day is that it creates confusion but if you don't believe that lets use simple arithmetic. You are saying to all of us that decreasing the public admission period by 33% will have a better effect than having more days open to the public.   The person who believes this statement has no idea how marketing works. More business days always equals more revenue. Ask most any retailer

Builder of the Hill Lines ( New Delta Lines). Recreating history for the model RR community.

Dennis LaGrua posted:
C W Burfle posted:
 

As Marty wrote: "Whats so hard about advertising a 2 day train show.  If you don't advertise a third members only day then nobody knows.  It's not rocket science.  Advertise the open days.  Period."

The problem with advertising PART of your event as two day is that it creates confusion but if you don't believe that lets use simple arithmetic. You are saying to all of us that decreasing the public admission period by 33% will have a better effect than having more days open to the public.   The person who believes this statement has no idea how marketing works. More business days always equals more revenue. Ask most any retailer

Confusion to whom ? If a person is told he or she is welcome to attend on Friday or Saturday , where does that statement become confusing  ? After reading all of your theory's over the years , I think that you , Dennis LaGrua , should start your own "show " (not a meet ) and prove to all of the us uneducated people how things are supposed work .

Enjoy your life now . It comes with a expiration date .

TCA -00-52289  LLCA-25013

The problem with advertising PART of your event as two day is that it creates confusion but if you don't believe that lets use simple arithmetic. You are saying to all of us that decreasing the public admission period by 33% will have a better effect than having more days open to the public.   The person who believes this statement has no idea how marketing works. More business days always equals more revenue. Ask most any retailer

What you and those who believe that the York show is a business fail to understand is that the primary purpose of the York train show is not for the Eastern Division to make money. Yes it is important that the commercial dealers take in enough money to make attending the show worth while. And the Eastern Division has to make enough money to meet the organization's expenses. But the Eastern Division is not paying dividends to it's shareholders (member).
The primary purpose of the show is to put on a train meet for the pleasure of TCA members.

Regarding more days means more business:
Doesn't that mean that more hours means more business too?
Why isn't Macy's and Best Buy open 24 hours a day?

C.W. Burfle

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