The Imperial Turbine looks nice, but if your into Premier only, it's pretty small next to other scale PRR. 

Thoughts about a scale Turbine?

Original Post

Hello guys and gals.........

about 20 years ago I had the Lionel # 6-18010 scale turbine and this thing is a monster and it looks really BAD going on 072 track.  If run this monster ,run it on larger track such as Atlas 090 to 0108 curves as it will look much better.  Believe me guys I know.   The Railking Imperial Turbine would look great on 072.

Tiffany

The Lionel 6-18010 had no traction tires and had a well deserved reputation as a poor puller. It is a beautiful model, however. If my memory is correct this was a Mike Wolf project for Lionel. The legacy version is similar with all the new bells and whistles. There was an issue with moisture in the shipping cartons. I would proceed cautiously if buying from the secondary market.

I have a 3rd Rail brass version. Great puller, but it is desperately in need of an electronics upgrade.

There has been no MTH Premier scale version of this. Maybe a missed opportunity, maybe a product for MTH to best avoid. If I ever get JDS Ltd to upgrade my 3rd Rail S2, it will get the RK Imperial sound file. 

I do concur with Tiffany, the larger the curves, the better. 

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

Indeed the "Lionel" 6-18010 (conventional) was made by Mike Wolf (by Samhongsa) in 1991 under a contract with Richard Kughn for Lionel.  This model replicates the PRR 6200 Steam Turbine as originally shopped out by Baldwin.

In 2002 Lionel made the 6-38028 (TMCC) version form this tooling that was apparently modified to replicated the 6200 as it was in fact modified through it's end of use.  So there is different detail on these to "Lionel" versions.  I have no idea how other manufacturers modeled their product.

I appears to me the these recent Legacy models used the same tooling as used for 6-38028.

Now a scale 6200 is fairly big.  This is a photo of my 6-38028 next to a C&O M-1 and N&W Jahn Henry (2300).

Ron

Last edited by PRRronbh

If you are a die hard MTH/DCS person, then yes MTH needs to make one.  However, Lionel has done several production runs and these can be found new or used.

Lionel's scale S2 dwarfs all of the non-scale versions.  To me the non-scale engines would look too small pulling scale cars.

The S-2 looks big.  It is.  So was the real one.  I am a fan of the MTH RK larger engine.  I now have the scale Lionel S-2 and it is a great locomotive

When Mike did his S-2, I feel he made a great size that can be used by many.  It was a great runner.  

PRRronbh posted:

I guess the question for Mike Wolf/MTH is why have they not produced a scale PRR S2?????

Ron

Three possibilities in my mind:

Since Mike did the first S2 for Lionel, there may have been a contractual limitation that prevented him from doing another.

There also may be a "been there, done that" mentality after making the 6-18010

He may have no interest in doing a brass scale model.

Just my SWAG....

Last edited by Gilly@N&W
Gilly@N&W posted:
PRRronbh posted:

I guess the question for Mike Wolf/MTH is why have they not produced a scale PRR S2?????

Ron

Three possibilities in my mind:

Since Mike did the first S2 for Lionel, there may have been a contractual limitation that prevented him from doing another.

There also may be a "been there, done that" mentality after making the 6-18010

He may have no interest in doing a brass scale model.

Just my SWAG....

Gilly,

I have also wondered if there was a agreement.  But we saw with Lionel's 6-38028 that Lionel did not honor there part at the time.

I own a Sunset.  They are indeed large - they can dwarf a Challenger.  I suspect the market is or was saturated, and that is why MTH is not rushing out to make more.  Sunset dumped them at $500 each, I think.

I suspect that, if you want a scale 3-rail S2, it would be trivially easy to find one.  Not so much in 2-rail.  I had to convert mine.

A while back there was another posting regarding a full scale Pennsy turbine.  I have the Lionel 6-18010 and, although it is an impressive scale locomotive the lack of traction tires makes it a less than stellar puller despite its 16 lb. of weight.  I had attached this PDF of what both Baldwin and Westinghouse had printed upon its completion and being turned over the the Pennsy.  I am attaching it here for those members who may have not seen it on the previous post.  Note the stylized "BW" plate affixed to the smoke box door in some of the images.  Hope you find this piece of history of interest. 

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bob2 posted:

I own a Sunset.  They are indeed large - they can dwarf a Challenger.  I suspect the market is or was saturated, and that is why MTH is not rushing out to make more.  Sunset dumped them at $500 each, I think.

I suspect that, if you want a scale 3-rail S2, it would be trivially easy to find one.  Not so much in 2-rail.  I had to convert mine.

I have one and it is a big engine -- a Northern on steroids. I like the engine and at some point in time I'll put a command system in it.

I have the Sunset one that's waiting on it's command upgrade.  I have all the parts, just haven't had the time to do the upgrade.  ERR recently introduced a turbine sound board, so mine will get the Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander.  Of course, it gets the MTH smoke unit, needs lots of smoke.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn
R. Hales posted:

A beautiful beast.  Too bad there was only one built and it was not saved.

S2_6200

S-2 Turbine 3

S-2 Turbine 2

 

Interesting trio of pictures you post.

The top one is as 6200 shopped out of Baldwin.

The bottom one is after probably all or most all modifications.  In the top one you do not see the steam feed line to the forward turbine but see it in the bottom picture after it was moved from under the "boiler" behind the forward turbine exhaust line.

The middle picture shows some kind of cowling around the stacks.  I know I have seen this picture before but have not seen any discussion about this cowing.

Ron

In the spirit of compromise, the RailKing S2 is a wonderful step up from the PW types.  It compares in size to what you'd expect from a LionMaster engine, with a heft that suggests scale through clever compression.  It has far more correct detail, already has the unique S2 set of sounds and can pull like no tomorrow.  The point being, it might also suffice those who want an engine that won't be dwarfed by scale rolling stock yet are restricted by tight curves.

RailKing S2 (left) vs PW 681 (right)

Bruce

 

PRRronbh posted:
R. Hales posted:

A beautiful beast.  Too bad there was only one built and it was not saved.

S2_6200

S-2 Turbine 3

S-2 Turbine 2

 

Interesting trio of pictures you post.

The top one is as 6200 shopped out of Baldwin.

The bottom one is after probably all or most all modifications.  In the top one you do not see the steam feed line to the forward turbine but see it in the bottom picture after it was moved from under the "boiler" behind the forward turbine exhaust line.

The middle picture shows some kind of cowling around the stacks.  I know I have seen this picture before but have not seen any discussion about this cowing.

Ron

I remember reading a full length article on the turbine in Classic Trains a few years back and the engine's exhaust alternately exited out of each of the 4 stacks in some sort of rotation.  Since the engine was not of the reciprocating type which tends to create a forced exhaust the turbine did not and I would guess that the exhaust tended to flow back along the boiler top and into the cab.  Therefore the attempts to create an updraft to lift the smoke a bit higher.  One of the NYC's L4 Mohawks sported a cowl similar to what is shown on the turbine in the middle picture.  I'd love to trade places with the young boy in the last photo. 

Allegheny48 posted:

I remember reading a full length article on the turbine in Classic Trains a few years back and the engine's exhaust alternately exited out of each of the 4 stacks in some sort of rotation.  Since the engine was not of the reciprocating type which tends to create a forced exhaust the turbine did not and I would guess that the exhaust tended to flow back along the boiler top and into the cab.  Therefore the attempts to create an updraft to lift the smoke a bit higher.  One of the NYC's L4 Mohawks sported a cowl similar to what is shown on the turbine in the middle picture.  I'd love to trade places with the young boy in the last photo. 

Actually to maintain the needed draft to the firebox at various speeds three butterfly valves were designed/installed into three of the four exhaust outlet ports.  And as speed increased the butterfly valves would sequence open.

Ron

Last edited by PRRronbh

Imho due to its size and the variety of models out there of this experimental locomotive, mth would be foolish to spend money on tooling for this model. The scale Lionel versions have excellent detail and I can't see anyone improving scale models already out there from Lionel and sunset models.

Us PRRSPF's can use a b8a shop switcher, a 2-8-8-0, a d16, a USRA n1 2-10-2, a g3, an f1, and other prr  steam classes that haven't been made.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Imho due to its size and the variety of models out there of this experimental locomotive, mth would be foolish to spend money on tooling for this model. The scale Lionel versions have excellent detail and I can't see anyone improving scale models already out there from Lionel and sunset models.

Us PRRSPF's can use a b8a shop switcher, a 2-8-8-0, a d16, a USRA n1 2-10-2, a g3, an f1, and other prr  steam classes that haven't been made.

Amen!  MTH does not need to replicate something that is already in plentiful supply (so to speak).  There are plenty of other locomotives that could be modeled providing the market exists for whatever it may be. 

 

PRRronbh posted:
Allegheny48 posted:

I remember reading a full length article on the turbine in Classic Trains a few years back and the engine's exhaust alternately exited out of each of the 4 stacks in some sort of rotation.  Since the engine was not of the reciprocating type which tends to create a forced exhaust the turbine did not and I would guess that the exhaust tended to flow back along the boiler top and into the cab.  Therefore the attempts to create an updraft to lift the smoke a bit higher.  One of the NYC's L4 Mohawks sported a cowl similar to what is shown on the turbine in the middle picture.  I'd love to trade places with the young boy in the last photo. 

Actually to maintain the needed draft to the firebox at various speeds three butterfly valves were designed/installed into three of the four exhaust outlet ports.  And as speed increased the butterfly valves would sequence open.

Ron

For those of you that may be interested in reading the Classic Trains article mentioned in my earlier post the issue is Spring 2012 pages 20 thru 31.  The author, Preston Cook, includes a comparison to C&O's M-1 turbine and EMD's E7's.  Some interesting reading in my opinion.

 

CAPPilot posted:

If you are a die hard MTH/DCS person, then yes MTH needs to make one.  However, Lionel has done several production runs and these can be found new or used.

Lionel's scale S2 dwarfs all of the non-scale versions.  To me the non-scale engines would look too small pulling scale cars.

And they do!  Well maybe except for the semi-scale version MTH released in the late '90s.  Attached is a video of my 671rr pulling a set of MTH passenger cars and an REA boxcar.  This engine is the one that started my love of trains, the 63 year old smoke unit still works and it's model trains so the mismatch doesn't bother me so much!  The 671rr was a re-release of the 671 after the 681 with magnatraction was released.  The lack of magnetic material during the Korean war was the issue then.  This consist pushes the limits of the 671rr for sure.  I am fairly sure I was running this engine at around 16v when I shot this video and I had to ease into that to get it moving even with the 054 curves on this layout.  

Another post here talks about the original not being saved.  I've often thought, what a shame.  But economics being what they are and what the nearly 1,000,000 lbs of steal would have been worth even back then and one can (almost) understand.

Tony

 

 

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Videos (1)
VIDEO0031

Here is another photo of MTH's RailKing S2 vs a 671rr.  Only our hobby lets us have 2 of this prototype in the same place!

IMAG0304

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Images (1)

Hi, I own Lionel 18010 & really love it. I'm planning to purchase the 38028 as it has wireless tether & smoke deflectors with TMCC although I run conventionally. I also purchased MTH Imperial Railking S-2 Turbine & its probably the worst performer I have. My layout is Lionel tubular with all 072 curves & Lionel 072 switches. The MTH stops over ALL the switches & derails over the layout more than it stays on the tracks. I just removed it & put back it its box where it will stay until selling my inventory. A gross waste of money. I have many engines of many companies & none perform so poorly. 

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