Scale, Semi Scale, Not Scale.....?

My own opinion is that scale is very close in realism to the prototype, semi-scale takes some liberties and I would consider non-scale to be toy-like (less detail).

You might like an article I wrote in the Tinplate Times:

https://www.tinplatetimes.com/...iScale/semiscale.htm

No matter what you call it, enjoy it!

Tom

Lionel's "Legacy" is a remote controlled train operating system. The Legacy locomotives are locomotives that utilize the full capabilities of the "Legacy" system. They are mostly but not all, built to scale.

MTH Premier line locomotives are all built to Scale.

Scale refers to a locomotives dimensions. Scale models are true to model scale sizing, like model cars or planes and are 1:48th scale representations of their prototypes.

Semi-scale refers usually to locomotives, as mentioned above, that take liberties with the prototype. These usually have nice detail but are built in such a way that they can be run on smaller layouts. That's your RailKing line. If you place a RailKing locomotive next to a Premier model of the same locomotive you will notice the difference in size.

Non-scale is usually 0-27 or tinplate stuff. Built more as a toy than a high end scale model. Think Lionel's Polar Express set and the matching Berkshire. As stated above, very little detail compared even to the likes of a RailKing engine.

Then there is rolling stock. I think of scale and otherwise mostly in the realm of passenger consists. A true "scale" representation of any given passenger car is usually going to be '21 inches long. However in the grand scheme of the market there are rather few layouts that have enough space to make use of cars that long. Hence why specialty manufacturers like Sunset/Golden Gate Depot make those in limited runs.

Most passenger cars that are matched in sets with 1:48th scale locomotives are actually '18 inches long. That's an example of semi-scale in passenger cars as many such sets are designed with 3D interiors and lots of detail but cannot truly be called scale.

Hope this helps.

MNCW, absolutely. I love the hobby. And I don’t care what I run. It is FUN. I see sometimes, that guy and gals are HUNG UP on the scale or semi scale. And honestly, I have a hard enough time telling the difference between premier and Railking. Forget about scale and semi scale. Lmao. Obviously premier are more expensive and more intricate. But, I need to look closely to see a difference. I guess I am just not as INTO it as others. I don’t blame them for being so INTO it. I guess there is something different for everyone in the hobby. I just buy em and run the crap out of them. No shelf queens in my stable. They all get used and abused equally. Lol.

Pete,  Many years ago, K-Line offered a steam locomotive that was very close to 1:64 and ran on three rail O gauge track.  For lack of a better term they called it Semi-Scale.  That term seems to have caught on.  In reality, it is like being pregnant - you either are or you aren't.  Semi means half and semi-scale is being accepted as less than 1:48 size.  Some modelers refer to the process as selective compression.  You will form your own opinion.  John

@Jedderbob posted:

Lionel's "Legacy" is a remote controlled train operating system. The Legacy locomotives are locomotives that utilize the full capabilities of the "Legacy" system. They are mostly but not all, built to scale.

MTH Premier line locomotives are all built to Scale.

Scale refers to a locomotives dimensions. Scale models are true to model scale sizing, like model cars or planes and are 1:48th scale representations of their prototypes.

Semi-scale refers usually to locomotives, as mentioned above, that take liberties with the prototype. These usually have nice detail but are built in such a way that they can be run on smaller layouts. That's your RailKing line. If you place a RailKing locomotive next to a Premier model of the same locomotive you will notice the difference in size.

Non-scale is usually 0-27 or tinplate stuff. Built more as a toy than a high end scale model. Think Lionel's Polar Express set and the matching Berkshire. As stated above, very little detail compared even to the likes of a RailKing engine.

Then there is rolling stock. I think of scale and otherwise mostly in the realm of passenger consists. A true "scale" representation of any given passenger car is usually going to be '21 inches long. However in the grand scheme of the market there are rather few layouts that have enough space to make use of cars that long. Hence why specialty manufacturers like Sunset/Golden Gate Depot make those in limited runs.

Most passenger cars that are matched in sets with 1:48th scale locomotives are actually '18 inches long. That's an example of semi-scale in passenger cars as many such sets are designed with 3D interiors and lots of detail but cannot truly be called scale.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. While I understand MOST of what you said, lol, I am almost sorry I asked the question. Lmao. I am figuring everyone will have some sort of differing response. I just love runnin them. Any size.

Strictly speaking, “scale” refers to the relationship between the model and prototype and applies to all: locomotives, freight and passenger cars, etc. A scale model will reproduce the dimensions of the prototype exactly. Semi-scale and non-scale models are, by definition, not scale models. You can gauge size and detail between these terms, but strictly speaking semi-scale and non-scale does not imply a larger or smaller, or more or less detailed, model in relation to a scale model.

Practically speaking, scale models are going to be larger and more detailed than semi-scale and non-scale models. Models of the latter two are typically compressed in order to negotiate smaller radius curves and feature limited detailing.

Scale means the item is based on the real thing with all dimensions reduced to model size.    For O scale, our models are 1/48 of full size.    This works out to be 1/4 inch to the foot, referred to as 1/4 inch scale.     For example, a standard real 40 foot long boxcar, is 40 ft long over the end sills.    Since in our scale 1/4 inch equals a foot, a scale model of that car should be 40 x 1/4 inches or 10 inches long.     All dimensions can generally be found for the real cars.

The Pennsy X43 boxcar is close to most of the newer 40 ft cars.    it is supposed to be 40 5 1/16 inches inside.   The overall height about the rails should be 15 ft 7/32 inch.     the width should be 9  feet 9 5/8  inches.   An accurate model would be a 10 1/8 inches long, 3 3/4 inches above the rails, and 2 1/2 inches wide.    There are diagrams with major dimensions for PRR cars on the a Website prr.railfan.net.    Also remember there are many types of 40ft boxcars and other prototypes would be different, especially in the height.

Many of the lower priced cars such as the rail king line, Atlas industrical rail, and Lionel 027, are made made smaller than scale.    some much smaller.    Many of the locos are undersized too, but they sorta match the cars.    The frustrating part is that they don't always compress the dimensions by the same amount.    if they did, it would all be to the same scale whatever that is and would look good together.    And some just do strange stuff.    The old Lionel 6464 boxcars were sorta based on a real 40 ft car and were about 10 inches long.    But they were way too narrow, and too low.

The one thing that really shocked me was when I first saw a full O scale model of the PRR steam Turbine.    I was familiar with the lionel model which is about the size of the midrange lionel steamers.    I saw this brass scale one and it was gigantic!    it must have been twice as long, and twice as tall.    the tender was much much bigger.     Of course the lionel one was made to go around 31 inch diameter curves, while the scale one (still o gauge) would probably need about 10 foot diameter curves. 

Generally the scale models do cost a little more.     the old Weaver Line, was pretty inexpensive, and was all scale.   this is the lionel "lionscale" line now I think.   I think they bought all the weaver molds.

Thanks. Being some what SEMI intelligent, lmao, I know how scale works and that 1/48 is the standard for O gauge.
But, in hindsight, I have NO IDEA how large the actual real life LOCO is. And yes, I know they all vary in real life size. Which would mean they would vary in the model size as well. And without going out and measuring real life Locos, I would have no idea if I had a scale or non scale model. Unless I was told it held to the TRUE 1/48 scale. Lol. To me, it just does not seem as important as, say, how the loco looks. Like, ****, that is a good looking loco. Lol.

A few more things to muddy the waters:

RailKing "Scale": Former Premier diesels that no longer measure up to contemporary standards of detail. Almost all of those can travel through 031 curves (high fuel tanks aid this), so they were reissued under the RK line.

Models of small prototypes: One example: ore cars and cabooses. Making either of these scale size does not impact their ability to travel through 031 curves, so they are scale-sized (even if they are missing some detail you'd normally find on premier-level models). Same for diesel switchers like the SW-1 or MP-15

Tank cars: In real life, they were all over the map size-wise. Watch any video of a mixed freight with a lot of tank cars in it. While RailKing (or Lionel "traditional") tankers may not be explicitly modeled after a particular real-live example, they probably match the major dimensions of something that actually ran in the real world.

(personally, I use this reality to justify running RailKing "modern" tankers (those that have prototypical private-owner markings) alongside Premier and similar higher-end tank cars.

---PCJ

@Pg3ibew posted:

Thanks for the info. While I understand MOST of what you said, lol, I am almost sorry I asked the question. Lmao. I am figuring everyone will have some sort of differing response. I just love runnin them. Any size.

Glad most of it got through, you can email me if there's any specific stuff you want cleared up.

Amen to running them at any size! That's the spirit of the hobby, everyone can make what they want out of it. I enjoy seeing everyone's creative outlet and if it's not my money, it's not my business. You won't see Union Pacific on my layout, but I won't knock anyone with a Big Boy

@Jedderbob posted:

Glad most of it got through, you can email me if there's any specific stuff you want cleared up.

Amen to running them at any size! That's the spirit of the hobby, everyone can make what they want out of it. I enjoy seeing everyone's creative outlet and if it's not my money, it's not my business. You won't see Union Pacific on my layout, but I won't knock anyone with a Big Boy

Thanks, It is weird. I am EXTREMELY happy with my choices. But, when I see everyone talking about scale and semi and non, I feel like I am missing something. Because, quite honestly, I never thought of it or about it. I am at the point where I have FOMO. Fear of Missing out!! LMAO

@Pg3ibew posted:

Thanks, It is weird. I am EXTREMELY happy with my choices. But, when I see everyone talking about scale and semi and non, I feel like I am missing something. Because, quite honestly, I never thought of it or about it. I am at the point where I have FOMO. Fear of Missing out!! LMAO

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. You might be in the best position......you bought what you like and are happy with it.

Some folks get "hung up" because they're really into scale model railroading, and they seek perfect 1:48 scale replications of the real thing. Nothing wrong with them.....but it's costly to give them what they want due to the ornate details. But, obviously, many are willing to pay the premium for the true-to-scale models.

I'm just a guy who's content with toy trains and not seeking scale models. Selective compression (not to a particular scale) is fine with me, so is the relative lack of details in the semi/non-scale realm. I'd rather pay half for smaller, not-to-scale gear.

The other aspect to consider is space availability. Scale didn't become prevalent 'til recently when houses and basements became larger. In the "old days", homes were smaller, so curves had to be tighter, and trains therefore smaller to fit in the space. So sacrifices were made, and that "traditional" or semi-scale size range has continued on for us with less space.

@raising4daughters posted:

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. You might be in the best position......you bought what you like and are happy with it.

Some folks get "hung up" because they're really into scale model railroading, and they seek perfect 1:48 scale replications of the real thing. Nothing wrong with them.....but it's costly to give them what they want due to the ornate details. But, obviously, many are willing to pay the premium for the true-to-scale models.

I'm just a guy who's content with toy trains and not seeking scale models. Selective compression (not to a particular scale) is fine with me, so is the relative lack of details in the semi/non-scale realm. I'd rather pay half for smaller, not-to-scale gear.

The aspect is space availability. Scale didn't become prevalent 'til recently when houses and basements became larger. In the "old days", homes were smaller, so curves had to be tighter, and trains therefore smaller to fit in the space. So sacrifices were made, and that "traditional" or semi-scale size range has continued on for us with less space.

If it was up to my wife, I would have HO and G scale and ANY SCALE. LMAO. She will see an engine in a book or online. And be like, GET THIS ONE. IT IS GORGEOUS. I am like, BABY, that is not O scale. LMAO

Pete,

I have some scale locos & and freights... but, mostly I run semi-scale.  I have quite a few Lionel Lionmaster Locos which are squished down Scale.  Most (if not all) semi-scale locos will run on 031 curves and many will run on 027 curves.   All my passengers cars (and, I have a lot) are 15" semi-scale... and, I love them.

I'm with you... Just run those babies... I don't have any shelf queens either.

I’m a newbie without a layout, but I like the Railking stuff (don’t own any), but just put an order in for a Lionel scale sd70. If MTH wasn’t going under, I would go for imperial modern diesels. When I saw them in person, I was blown away. Scale is awesome but semi scale has the fun factor with a cheaper price. The Lionel lc+2.0 models have really awesome electronics, but the railings and trucks are atrocious. They would be a lot of fun for 100-200 less.

I think the only time "scale" comes into play is if a person has any interest in the history of the item.  Once you start differentiating, say cabooses from 1 RR to another, you start to notice that your $100 caboose you thought was a SAL caboose, is just a NYC caboose in SAL paint.

I try to model the old Seaboard Air Line RR and have numerous books on the RR.  I try to find pieces that look like/match those SAL owned, meaning if it has the overall proper dimensions, correct window placement, doors, ends, etc., then it works for me.  I try not to buy pieces that are generic in nature, or that SAL didn't own.

I don't get down to counting rivets (any longer).  Besides, a 1" rivet or bolt in 1/48 is tiny, some parts are so small that a coat of paint can cover them up.

If historical accuracy has any impact, you'll soon discover there's a world of difference between a Pullman, Budd, or ACF 10-6 sleeper.  Window patterns, flute patterns, roof patterns can be very different.  If historical accuracy has no hold on you, then get what you like, painted in the RR of your choice.

Thanks people y’all made that clear as muddy water.🤷‍♂️

Here is some more mud!   In 1891 that Darned Märklin started this mess defining gauges 1-5 as standards for toy trains.  Why have one or two when you can have 5... none of them scale!

@Billyted posted:

Thanks people y’all made that clear as muddy water.🤷‍♂️

How's this:

HO = 1:87 scale (1" = 87")

S = 1:64 scale

O = 1:48 scale, nearly twice the size of HO

3-Rail O also includes a segment, commonly derided as toy trains, not scale model (non/semi-scale) items that run run on three-rail track. Lionel and a few other manufacturers really popularized this segment in the postwar era, almost making Lionel synonymous with O. Again, though, most were not scale.  True, 1:48 scale models in O didn't really become prevalent until much more recently.

3-Rail O semi-scale isn't compressed to a specific scale. The impact? A semi-scale Berk might be smaller than a semi-scale Pacific even though the real world and true scale Berk would be bigger.

@raising4daughters posted:

How's this:

HO = 1:87 scale (1" = 87')

How's this:

HO = 1:87 scale (1" = 87")

Question: I do like to buy same size. I think that would be Lionel "traditional" size. How do I verify it is what I want when I see it online or out and about in swap meet box?

Should I try and find in the Lionel Tandem and Assoc description sites first? I like the low rolling resistance of the MPC era trucks, but they tend to be pretty light weight as well.

Boy, this really cleared it all up. Lmao. Thanks. Lmao

@Pg3ibew posted:

Boy, this really cleared it all up. Lmao. Thanks. Lmao

@Mill City posted:

How's this:

HO = 1:87 scale (1" = 87")

Oops, **** fat fingers.

Why wouldn't HO (Half-O) be 1:96?

Oh wait!  O is somewhere between 1:43 and 1:56 so half O would be 1:87 if O is 1:43.5... Except when it isn't!   THERE!  Now Pete's got this!

@raising4daughters posted:

Oops, **** fat fingers.

Haha...a small, but significant detail. Brings to mind the "life-size" Stonehenge set debacle from Spinal Tap

@Mill City posted:

Haha...a small, but significant detail. Brings to mind the "life-size" Stonehenge set debacle from Spinal Tap

Spinal Tap is into O gauge trains? Scale? Lmao

I have always had a problem accepting the term “semi-scale.” It doesn’t mean anything and is, in a way, an oxymoron. It’s like being “semi-pregnant.”

Every model is built to a some sort of scale. It may not be set perfectly accurate to a given scale, but it is built to SOME scale of the real thing. “Semi-scale” conveys absolutely nothing about to what scale a particular model is built. It’s a silly, nonsensical term.

@Rich Melvin posted:

I have always had a problem accepting the term “semi-scale.” It doesn’t mean anything and is, in a way, an oxymoron. It’s like being “semi-pregnant.”

Every model is built to a some sort of scale. It may not be set perfectly accurate to a given scale, but it is built to SOME scale of the real thing. “Semi-scale” conveys absolutely nothing about to what scale a particular model is built. It’s a silly, nonsensical term.

One time, I thought I was semi-pregnant. Then I realized, my wife wouldn’t let me spend any more money!!! Lol Put an end to that quick. Lol

I like that MTH shows the difference. I have no idea how to tell when lionel is scale.

I am always amused by these discussions about having the perfect scale reproduction of a real life engine, car etc. while the whole time ignoring that third rail staring you in the face.

@Pg3ibew posted:

If it was up to my wife, I would have HO and G scale and ANY SCALE. LMAO. She will see an engine in a book or online. And be like, GET THIS ONE. IT IS GORGEOUS. I am like, BABY, that is not O scale. LMAO

I have a daughter in law like that. I'm slowly teaching her what O gauge is. I think she is close to graduating.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

I am always amused by these discussions about having the perfect scale reproduction of a real life engine, car etc. while the whole time ignoring that third rail staring you in the face.

That the swinging pilots and the jumbo couplers. I like things to be detailed and preferably scale, but would have 0 problem buying a rail king imperial sd70/es44 or steam. My only problem with is the ever dwindling uncertainty with dcs/mth.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Why wouldn't HO (Half-O) be 1:96?

Oh wait!  O is somewhere between 1:43 and 1:56 so half O would be 1:87 if O is 1:43.5... Except when it isn't!   THERE!  Now Pete's got this!

Interestingly, 1:43.5 is the standard scale for “O” a.k.a. 0 in the UK and France which makes our 1 1/4” gauge “OW5” much closer to the correct 4’ 8 1/2” standard gauge in the prototype.

@Csxcellent posted:

@Bill DeBrooke posted:
I am always amused by these discussions about having the perfect scale reproduction of a real life engine, car etc. while the whole time ignoring that third rail staring you in the face.

That the swinging pilots and the jumbo couplers. I like things to be detailed and preferably scale, but would have 0 problem buying a rail king imperial sd70/es44 or steam. My only problem with is the ever dwindling uncertainty with dcs/mth.

As with anything it’s not black and white.  The couplers and pilots are compromises (though I’d argue unnecessary ones in some cases) and the third rail is what attracted me in the first place.  Way less hassle wiring reverse loops.

Additionally, there are plenty of prototypes that use third rails.

I always have to laugh at the 2-railers and Proto48 folks... Steam engines don’t run on electricity! And I’ve never seen anyone fueling up their “diesel-electric” models!

For me, scale size is the primary property of a model.  The rest is just details.

For me, it's proportions and that includes everything on my layout. A 4-8-4 MTH Imperial next to my MTH Premium Hudson would look out of place. If one wants to model in 3/16" scale, that's fine, but IMO putting them next to 1/4" scale just doesn't look right.

YMMV

(edit) My apologies to the S gauge crowd. I should not have put a number on the not scale reference.

@Oman posted:

For me, it's proportions and that includes everything on my layout. A 4-8-4 MTH Imperial next to my MTH Premium Hudson would look out of place. If one wants to model in 3/16" scale, that's fine, but IMO putting them next to 1/4" scale just doesn't look right.

YMMV

**SIGH**  Once again, Railking, Imperial or otherwise, is not 3/16" scale.  Railking in background, 3/16" S Scale in foreground...

Rusty

While I’m not sure what train manufacturers have actually meant by the term semi-scale, I can say that not every thing in O is built to a “scale.” Scale implies that a model is proportional by some ratio to the 1:1 prototype. Quite a bit of the Railking stuff is not built to any scale as it is not proportioned correctly at all, case in point: the SD-90MAC. The Lionel SD-40 from the 1980s is another example. These models have been shortened in length significantly but the width and height have are not proportional to maintain a huskier look.

Rich and others are right, semi-scale is an awful term, but it's all we've got for now. In the end, it's a shame that the original toy train makers (Lionel, Marx) didn't adopt a scale size of, say, 1:56 - 1:58, back in the PW era. I recall that K-Line marketed its Titan series as 1:58 scale.

Easy for me, I get it, to say this now in retrospect as probably were forced to make concessions due to the requirements of 31" curves and turnouts (and even the tighter 27" curves and turnouts).

I'm starting to wonder how much longer the semi-scale market will last except for fantasy toy train sets for entry-level.

When I got into the hobby in 2002, there were lots of offerings in PS, TMCC, and conventional engines and matching rolling stock. Industrial Rail, K-Line, and Williams are gone (and WBB is offering very little lately). While we hear rumors of the Rail King line having a go-forward plan, that's still in doubt. Lionel's most recent catalog had way more offerings in 1:48 scale engines than LC+2 engines. Not complaining, just observing a trend.