I have always wanted a S gauge set, but honestly both MTH and Lionel's (AF) offerings left me flat. Hopefully they will offer something with a bit more to it
@Rusty Traque posted:However, both Lionel and MTH have had to adapt and make their electronics compatible with DCC. MTH had to atfer encountering resistance in the HO market and for some odd reason, Lionel decided to add it to Legacy in 2012 for the S market. Neither system is perfect for DCC, but basic DCC functionality is there.
Legacy is already radio control, the signal is transmitted from the rails to an antenna on the locomotives.
Rusty
Legacy still requires a track-side command base if I'm not mistaken - That's not "remote". Lionchief is "remote". Direct communication is the future. Lionel has to know they have to change - the popularity of that product line is clear and the incorporation of wifi by both Lionel and MTH is further demonstration of that knowledge.
Eventually everyone will move to a more Railpro / Lionchief environment with chips that directly connect to a device - be it a designated remote or a smart device (I prefer the designated device) and eliminate communicating through rails and a command base. That's a 50 year old concept - that's eventually gonna meet it's end.
Chuck,
I agree that your suggestions make the most sense and were one of the reasons why SHS was so successful. Expensive, proprietary electronics may have hurt Lionel and MTH as much as they helped because they were not optional. Some potential customers walked away rather than buy products whose parts, even if just trucks, had to be removed. American Models allows buyers to order just what they like with the option of converting later on--except for their steam locomotives; but few dealers carry AM. MTH decided to duplicate part numbers for scale or high-rail rather than include options in a single package. When I was a product manager for consumer goods, this duplication was expensive and wasteful.
I didn't mind paying a slight premium for SHS products when I knew I would not use one set of wheels and in most cases would have to buy different couplers. The extra wheels meant that I increased my chances of selling any product I no longer needed because both scale and high-rail customers would find it useful. (One eBay seller of SHS product requires potential buyers to chose one set of wheels or the other, probably because he intends to sell the unwanted set separately to boost his revenue. I'll never buy from him!)
The conundrum of sorting scale/high-rail demands seems relatively simple if manufacturers follow the SHS example and your suggestions. The difficulty lies in two areas if, and only if, the products are to be sold in retail stores: 1) designing product so that the options can be made relatively easily (AM and SHS made wheel swaps, use of truck spacers, and pre-formed holes for coupler screws for simple and easy changes); and 2) designing diesel locomotives so that an operator can easily remove the body or body part to allow users to install electronics of their own choice--sold separately--into a basic DC-motored frame. Steam locomotives have driver wheels too complex for most people to change.
Rail sizes are bit more complex, but switches are the real derailing point. So a short list of compatibility on the outside of a box or on a website would help. S scale/gauge is not that hard to grasp, and wheel options eliminate any risk. It's not as though this is rocket science, brain surgery, or even the greatest challenge--finding the right ink-jet cartridge for a printer.
I also feel Chuck's comments on the diesel locomotive options are the most likely. Around 75% of S gauge operators run in an AC environment. ST has this covered with the AC option, just as AM always has done. I do not see ST offering any command control other than DCC (ESU.) Legacy is proprietary to Lionel and has never been licensed to anyone else or made available for aftermarket conversions. Operators like me will need to buy a DC only version and install ERR TMCC/Railsounds boards just like we do in the AM engines.
I hope S gauge people like Chuck and Rusty, plus some others, have an opportunity to provide guidance to ST in some of the key product decisions.
@Jacobpaul81 posted:Legacy still requires a track-side command base if I'm not mistaken - That's not "remote". Lionchief is "remote". Direct communication is the future. Lionel has to know they have to change - the popularity of that product line is clear and the incorporation of wifi by both Lionel and MTH is further demonstration of that knowledge.
Eventually everyone will move to a more Railpro / Lionchief environment with chips that directly connect to a device - be it a designated remote or a smart device (I prefer the designated device) and eliminate communicating through rails and a command base. That's a 50 year old concept - that's eventually gonna meet it's end.
I hear what you're saying, and I believe that Lionel is already thinking/planning around this issue.
Question: Some of us use "command control" not just to control locomotives, but to control everything on the layout. How would layout control work in a "direct communication" environment?
@Keith L posted:I hear what you're saying, and I believe that Lionel is already thinking/planning around this issue.
Question: Some of us use "command control" not just to control locomotives, but to control everything on the layout. How would layout control work in a "direct communication" environment?
Same way. Chip direct. This is already possible from Railpro, Bluerail, and S-Cab.
Here's Railpro's version - https://www.ringengineering.com/AM-1.htm
@AmFlyer posted:I also feel Chuck's comments on the diesel locomotive options are the most likely. Around 75% of S gauge operators run in an AC environment. ST has this covered with the AC option, just as AM always has done. I do not see ST offering any command control other than DCC (ESU.) Legacy is proprietary to Lionel and has never been licensed to anyone else or made available for aftermarket conversions. Operators like me will need to buy a DC only version and install ERR TMCC/Railsounds boards just like we do in the AM engines.
I hope S gauge people like Chuck and Rusty, plus some others, have an opportunity to provide guidance to ST in some of the key product decisions.
It'd simplify their manufacturing to just build and sell one option - an AC / DC / DCC ready all-in-one with swappable Hi-Low Trucks like MTH did with their Proto-Scale 3-2 models.
Any one notice thr web site stating MTH product repairs will be handled by MTH not Scale Trains?
Gunny
The Bluerail system does not do what the Legacy system does. Direct to engine is fine for operating engines, especially in a dead rail environment. Legacy is a two way comm system that uses the house ground wiring plus the track rail as an antenna system to send commands to the engines. The direct to engine systems are all one way at this point. On my layout there are close to 60 engines that need to communicate back to the command base, then on to three iPads, three iPhones and three Cab 2 controllers. The layout has its own WiFi system provided by LCS for the iPhone/iPad connectivity. There are close to 100 devices on the layout that have two way comms with the base, that is necessary so all the devices know instantaneously turnout position, accessory operating status, lighting on/off etc. This is all done with the LCS which is connected through the Legacy base. The engines communicate two way using the Sensor tracks.
I imagine Lionel is working on some new devices that improve the comms directly with the engines in a Legacy environment.
There are multiple systems for controlling a layout accessories,etc including LCS. DCC can be used that way, as well, some out of the box. Granted, LCS currently doesn't control locos out of the box, but it is heading that direction. Also, it isn't necessary to have the same system control the locos that control the accessories. I'll leave it at that since this thread isn't about this topic.
Brendan
@AmFlyer posted:I also feel Chuck's comments on the diesel locomotive options are the most likely. Around 75% of S gauge operators run in an AC environment. ST has this covered with the AC option, just as AM always has done. I do not see ST offering any command control other than DCC (ESU.) Legacy is proprietary to Lionel and has never been licensed to anyone else or made available for aftermarket conversions. Operators like me will need to buy a DC only version and install ERR TMCC/Railsounds boards just like we do in the AM engines.
I hope S gauge people like Chuck and Rusty, plus some others, have an opportunity to provide guidance to ST in some of the key product decisions.
There is rather long thread on the forum to check out regarding Legacy and it's availability to anyone that might want to add the ability to access Legacy functionality. This is not to say it would be feasible for ST to include the capability to operate Legacy in a future ST app for smart phones. One manufacturer that did use this: MTH. That would be the MTH premium app for smart phones and tablets, which operates Legacy locomotives as well as DCS and conventional locomotives, currently available. This app just uses the existing Legacy hardware in other manufacturers products with the protocols provided by Lionel.
LIONEL MAKES PUBLIC LEGACY AND WI-FI PROTOCOLS | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com).
I believe Chuck provided an excellent thread on the forum on how install the MTH app with Legacy on his S layout.
Mike
Thanks for bringing up a link to that discussion. Lionel released data needed by their partners to write apps for the iPhone/iPad that connects through the LCS WiFi to control Legacy equipped engines. Lionel also released an internal software program to allow us LCS users access to the WiFi unit and the stored data on the Legacy base. They did not release information necessary to build competing Legacy boards for retrofit into non-Legacy engines. Only TMCC is in the public domain. The MTH Premium app does not connect to the LCS WiFi device, it uses the MTH interface to integrate with the Lionel system. As a result it can run Legacy engines only in TMCC mode, a reduced feature set.
No S gauge TMCC or Legacy engines have Bluetooth, unlike their O gauge counterparts. In exchange we got DCC compatibility. So there is no way to control S gauge Legacy engines directly, without going through the base unit. S gauge FlyerChief does have Bluetooth.
ST should, in my opinion, ignore Legacy and TMCC. We need them to bring detailed, high performance engines to market that work conventionally and with DCC. Those of us with Legacy systems can retrofit the engines with TMCC to operate them on our layouts. I continue to be enthused and optimistic about the future ST S gauge product possibilities.
@AmFlyer posted:ST should, in my opinion, ignore Legacy and TMCC. We need them to bring detailed, high performance engines to market that work conventionally and with DCC. Those of us with Legacy systems can retrofit the engines with TMCC to operate them on our layouts. I continue to be enthused and optimistic about the future ST S gauge product possibilities.
Tom, I agree... keep Lionel as far away as possible. Bring back the SHS line.
Tom Stoltz
in snow covered Maine
@Tom Stoltz posted:Tom, I agree... keep Lionel as far away as possible. Bring back the SHS line.
Tom Stoltz
in snow covered Maine
Pretty sure Scale Trains isn't going to mess with any proprietary system. At best they might use an electronic e-unit for conventional AC, a shorting plug for DC just like SHS did while using ESU for DCC and sound.
Locomotives from Scale Trains will be a long way away for now anyway.
Rusty
Rusty the realist!!! making sense out of excitement. I might be 80 before any new products. 4 years form now.
Tom Stoltz, Yeah, Kind of like playing a lefty casino doing Beatles songs.
yep, snow on the ground and ice on the roads.
I agree, dont toy with scale!
Or don’t modernize, computerize hi rail S.
@Leroof posted:Tom Stoltz, Yeah, Kind of like playing a lefty casino doing Beatles songs.
yep, snow on the ground and ice on the roads.I agree, dont toy with scale!
Well, that's a surprise...
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
@Rusty Traque posted:Pretty sure Scale Trains isn't going to mess with any proprietary system. At best they might use an electronic e-unit for conventional AC, a shorting plug for DC just like SHS did while using ESU for DCC and sound.
Locomotives from Scale Trains will be a long way away for now anyway.
Rusty
As long as there is a DCC ready plug - I think everyone will be happy. It's when they start cramming their proprietary electronics in that things quickly go downhill.
Just to make things official, here's the word from MTH's mouth:
https://www.mthtrains.com/news/679b
Rusty
@AmFlyer posted:The Bluerail system does not do what the Legacy system does. Direct to engine is fine for operating engines, especially in a dead rail environment. Legacy is a two way comm system that uses the house ground wiring plus the track rail as an antenna system to send commands to the engines. The direct to engine systems are all one way at this point. On my layout there are close to 60 engines that need to communicate back to the command base, then on to three iPads, three iPhones and three Cab 2 controllers. The layout has its own WiFi system provided by LCS for the iPhone/iPad connectivity. There are close to 100 devices on the layout that have two way comms with the base, that is necessary so all the devices know instantaneously turnout position, accessory operating status, lighting on/off etc. This is all done with the LCS which is connected through the Legacy base. The engines communicate two way using the Sensor tracks.
I imagine Lionel is working on some new devices that improve the comms directly with the engines in a Legacy environment.
This is not completely correct. Railpro uses 2 way communication and engines can communicate directly to each other. This is actually critical to their mu'ing of engines as the lead engine controls and communicates with the trailing engines giving them commands. There are videos on YouTube demonstrating this.
I thought RailPro and Bluerail were two different systems. Ring Engineering's RailPro seems to be a great system, it also addresses some of the programming complexity in DCC. Were I in HO I would definitely give it a try.
@AmFlyer posted:I thought RailPro and Bluerail were two different systems. Ring Engineering's RailPro seems to be a great system, it also addresses some of the programming complexity in DCC. Were I in HO I would definitely give it a try.
Yes they are an I apologise if I misunderstood you. I took the statement more generalized in that other wireless systems weren't twomway like Legacy.
I think RailPro could do a better job of putting themselves out there. I think overall they seem superior to most other systems on the market and have now made themselves DCC compatible.
I've been following this thread and continue to see statements that Legacy has 2 way communication. TMCC and Legacy are one way communication from the command base to the locomotive. Legacy vs TMCC has 2 way communication from the handheld remote to the command base.
I am the one who first stated Legacy was 2 way. It is one way from handheld to base to engine. The engines communicate position, and TMCC ID back to the base and on to the iPhones and iPads through the Sensor tracks. The base adds the data associated with the ID for display on the iPad at the location in the track plan of the Sensor track that was crossed.
@AmFlyer posted:I am the one who first stated Legacy was 2 way. It is one way from handheld to base to engine. The engines communicate position, and TMCC ID back to the base and on to the iPhones and iPads through the Sensor tracks. The base adds the data associated with the ID for display on the iPad at the location in the track plan of the Sensor track that was crossed.
Well, now I may have propagated erroneous information. I was giving others the benefit of my doubt that there was two way communication to some extent. I don't know if Legacy is 2 way to the base, but for sure it is not 2 way to the locomotive. Return communication through sensor tracks is not 2 way communication.
RailPro seems to not be targeting the S scale operators running DC or DCC. Perhaps it is too small of a market compared to HO. They do not advertise or submit articles to the S Scale Resource magazine. They seem to have a superior product offering, at least compared to HO DCC.
I am convinced that ST will use ESU Loksound decoders. I would be surprised if they offer a socket because Loksound supports DC operations. So would they go through the extra engineering to support AC? I doubt it. Loksound boards can also drive fan driven smoke units which makes the 2-8-0 a possibility. Standardizing on DCC is a great move IMHO. Correcting the mistake MTH made.
I wonder if they will offer Hi-Rail or not? Time will tell I suppose. I know, I know... 80% of S is Hi-rail blah blah blah. What if ST sees an opportunity to bring some of their HO customers into S? What if they got an unbelievable deal from MTH on the S tooling and they don't need high MOQs? Just saying that it is plausible to think that ScaleTrains might only bring our Scale wheeled S products. Also equally plausible to say that since the tooling is already there to do both why walk away from an existing market? Time will tell and it will be interesting to watch.
I sure hope they mix in a little new tooling though. It will have been 10+ years since MTH bought SHS by the time ST brings out an S product likely. I don't mind new paint schemes (Like Erie) but some of this tooling is well over 20 years old now. I'd do the E7, #6 turnout, and I think there was another caboose that never got made right? Mix those in with the already tooled models and see how they sell.
I sure hope people get onboard and we aren't sitting here in a year with people complaining about features they don't want, or DCC, or the price. Hopefully the sales #s will be there and ST is encouraged to continue with the S line.
When I got the S gauge bug 18 years ago, I decided to go scale. 2 years from now, I may be moving. That would be the ideal time for me to build an S gauge layout. So, this is promising news for me. All my S gauge are American Models and S-Helper.
@jonnyspeed posted:I am convinced that ST will use ESU Loksound decoders. I would be surprised if they offer a socket because Loksound supports DC operations. So would they go through the extra engineering to support AC? I doubt it. Loksound boards can also drive fan driven smoke units which makes the 2-8-0 a possibility. Standardizing on DCC is a great move IMHO. Correcting the mistake MTH made.
I agree. DCC is the way for ST to proceed. As long as there's a socket, everything beyond that is a good old fashioned conventional DC power train. An electronic reverse unit for AC isn't a major cost, including one vs the high tech razzmatazz of Legacy or DCS requires minimal investment.
I wonder if they will offer Hi-Rail or not? Time will tell I suppose. I know, I know... 80% of S is Hi-rail blah blah blah. What if ST sees an opportunity to bring some of their HO customers into S? What if they got an unbelievable deal from MTH on the S tooling and they don't need high MOQs? Just saying that it is plausible to think that ScaleTrains might only bring our Scale wheeled S products. Also equally plausible to say that since the tooling is already there to do both why walk away from an existing market? Time will tell and it will be interesting to watch.
What ST really brings to the table is their visibility and reputation. They've accomplished a lot in the short time they've been in business and don't have the albatross around their neck of being a "toy train" company.
As to offering HirRail/Flyer compatibility? It really wouldn't be wise to ignore that segment of S. AM tried it at first back in '85, but eventually had to "follow the money." SHS figured it out, I would encourage ST to follow that business model. I don't know if you noticed, but the last batch of tank cars brought in by Ron Sebastian for SSA were HiRail only. They didn't include scale wheels in the box as with previous offerings. You have to buy them separately (I think they might exchange wheels, I'm not sure).
I sure hope they mix in a little new tooling though. It will have been 10+ years since MTH bought SHS by the time ST brings out an S product likely. I don't mind new paint schemes (Like Erie) but some of this tooling is well over 20 years old now. I'd do the E7, #6 turnout, and I think there was another caboose that never got made right? Mix those in with the already tooled models and see how they sell.
SHS planned a bay window caboose along with the E7. Both would be welcomed. While the tooling may be 20+ years old, it has held up rather well. It's north of what ST considers their "Operator" class of models, IMHO... However, I don't anticipate any "Rivet Counter" or "Museum Quality" S products for quite some time.
I would hope that ST reintroduces the Showcase Line with products that MTH didn't get around to: the 3 bay PS-2 hopper, outside braced and single sheathed boxcars, the various open hoppers, bulkhead flats, etc.
I sure hope people get onboard and we aren't sitting here in a year with people complaining about features they don't want, or DCC, or the price. Hopefully the sales #s will be there and ST is encouraged to continue with the S line.
ST has already stated their production schedules are booked for the next 18-24 months, so we'll have to wait at least that long before we can start complaining...
Rusty
@jonnyspeed posted:I wonder if they will offer Hi-Rail or not? Time will tell I suppose. I know, I know... 80% of S is Hi-rail blah blah blah. What if ST sees an opportunity to bring some of their HO customers into S? What if they got an unbelievable deal from MTH on the S tooling and they don't need high MOQs? Just saying that it is plausible to think that ScaleTrains might only bring our Scale wheeled S products. Also equally plausible to say that since the tooling is already there to do both why walk away from an existing market? Time will tell and it will be interesting to watch.
Are 'main stream' H0 wheel flanges true to scale or is that just for P87 models? I know H0 used to be truly 'High-rail' but don't know how it is now.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
@Tom Stoltz posted:Are 'main stream' H0 wheel flanges true to scale or is that just for P87 models? I know H0 used to be truly 'High-rail' but don't know how it is now.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
The standard RP25 wheel is not true to scale. The tread is wider and flange deeper than P87.
I wouldn't consider HO code 100 track, pre-RP25 wheels or the old NEM wheel standards used by Rivarrossi as HiRail in the sense it's used for S and O. None of the HOer's I've ever known did.
Here's a chart from Proto87.org showing the differences:
Rusty
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@Rusty Traque posted:The standard RP25 wheel is not true to scale. The tread is wider and flange deeper than P87.
I wouldn't consider HO code 100 track, pre-RP25 wheels or the old NEM wheel standards used by Rivarrossi as HiRail in the sense it's used for S and O. None of the HOer's I've ever known did.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty, but isn't it the flange depth that drive the S scale people wild? Don't make me no never mind what they call it. But if 'technically' H0 is more toward 'High-rail' rather than proto or P87...
@jonnyspeed posted:I wonder if they will offer Hi-Rail or not? Time will tell I suppose. I know, I know... 80% of S is Hi-rail blah blah blah. What if ST sees an opportunity to bring some of their HO customers into S?
What I'm trying to get at is if ST uses H0 as their model, wouldn't that be what we call High-rail in S?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
@Tom Stoltz posted:Thanks Rusty, but isn't it the flange depth that drive the S scale people wild? Don't make me no never mind what they call it. But if 'technically' H0 is more toward 'High-rail' rather than proto or P87...
What I'm trying to get at is if ST uses H0 as their model, wouldn't that be what we call High-rail in S?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I think we're getting way too far off into the weeds.
Time to go over to YouTube and watch some cat videos...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:I think we're getting way too far off into the weeds.
Time to go over to YouTube and watch some cat videos...
Rusty
I love the cat videos. I've always had cats... have three at present. So I'm used to trying to herd cats (by the way, we once had a rabbit who did his best to herd the four cats we had then -- would have made a great video).
Anyway, it has been a goal of mine to try to get the S community close to being on the same page. Might be easier to draw up a Middle East peace plan.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
There's some good reads on the NASG web site regarding high rail vs scale
@Oman posted:There's some good reads on the NASG web site regarding high rail vs scale
Thanks Oman, just gave it a re-read. Now, I'm confused... There are a number of errors in their write up.
Maybe more confusion, but here's a page on different scale wheels
@Tom Stoltz posted:Thanks Rusty, but isn't it the flange depth that drive the S scale people wild? Don't make me no never mind what they call it. But if 'technically' H0 is more toward 'High-rail' rather than proto or P87...
What I'm trying to get at is if ST uses H0 as their model, wouldn't that be what we call High-rail in S?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
What was wrong with Don’s concept for wheels when he ran SHS? i don’t seem to remember people getting upset with him from both camps, or have I missed something?
